Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby Rhamphoryncus » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:00 pm

The webbing is pretty ugly but.. alternates.. hmm. Maybe generate a larger "island" but in a random direction to form a land bridge? That would still let you generate on a coast but more likely to be connected.

Feedback in the spawn algorithm would really help though. Check 10 or 20 points around the spawn to figure out where land is, then spawn the landbridge in that direction. A chance of island spawns is still okay if it's 100 times less likely.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby meganothing » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:36 pm

I would like terrain generation to sometimes generate impossible or nearly impossible maps. By default this should be impossible, sure. But if someone needs a new challenge for early game, the option (or a mod) to turn off the safety net would be really nice.

An experienced player would start a game, and if he starts on an island, check the resources available to him and make a guess: Is this enough to research landfill AND enough stone to build a bridge? If the answer is no, simply restart. If the answer is "maybe" or "yes", continue.

The most interesting games would start with a "maybe" answer.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby TRUEpicness » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:54 pm

How about having some sort of preview of the map. It could work like this, the player presses the generate button, instead of the player being entered onto the map there would be a screen with the map that could be say 1000 tiles in all four directions, the map preview shouldn't shouldn't show biters either so you can't make an early strategy. Then at the bottom of that screen there would be a button saying regenerate if you don't like the map and a button saying something like ok or confirm and if you press that it would take you into the game and then you would start like normal. Oh and the preview would be like the minimap not the actual terrain
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby malventano » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:59 pm

Instead of worrying about webbing, I would rather see the game just procedurally do what the player would do - regenerate the map if it does not meet some minimum criteria. An example would be if the map didn't have x resources and y area around the player. Make it disable-able for the hard core players intentionally looking for impossible maps.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby vaderciya » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:00 pm

I'd like to see actual elevation implemented. You could do it like in age empires 2. Where the map doesn't literally have to be raised, but if an area is surrounded mostly impassable cliff faces, it both looks and acts like the ground is higher than it is. This means you can get mountains, cliffs, low elavation deserts, plateaus, and so on.

I feel that we need more variation in not only elavation, but also how the world feels. Because everything is quite literally the same. You just have green places with trees, and yellow places with less trees. That's the limit of the world. And then everything is either one big land chunk with bits of water, or it's mostly water with tiny land bridges connecting bits of lands. As it currently stands, if you explore for 10 minutes you have seen absolutely everything you will ever see. There's never anything interesting, no biome changes of note, no elavation differences, and honestly it's quite boring. There is no reason to explore besides finding that next resource node.

Ideally we want different kinds of worlds. Continents, real continents, some connected and some not. Just imagine you're playing something like civ5 and you're browsing through the map selection, there is so much choice and variety that it puts this kind of map generation to shame.

So let's get some of that real variance! Real differences! Maps that are truly unique and don't all look exactly the same after exploring for a few minutes!
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby TOGoS » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:05 pm

vaderciya wrote:I'd like to see actual elevation implemented. You could do it like in age empires 2. Where the map doesn't literally have to be raised, but if an area is surrounded mostly impassable cliff faces, it both looks and acts like the ground is higher than it is. This means you can get mountains, cliffs, low elavation deserts, plateaus, and so on.

I feel that we need more variation in not only elavation, but also how the world feels. Because everything is quite literally the same. You just have green places with trees, and yellow places with less trees. That's the limit of the world. And then everything is either one big land chunk with bits of water, or it's mostly water with tiny land bridges connecting bits of lands. As it currently stands, if you explore for 10 minutes you have seen absolutely everything you will ever see. There's never anything interesting, no biome changes of note, no elavation differences, and honestly it's quite boring. There is no reason to explore besides finding that next resource node.

Ideally we want different kinds of worlds. Continents, real continents, some connected and some not. Just imagine you're playing something like civ5 and you're browsing through the map selection, there is so much choice and variety that it puts this kind of map generation to shame.

So let's get some of that real variance! Real differences! Maps that are truly unique and don't all look exactly the same after exploring for a few minutes!


Yes. :)

And to set the record straight, the second image was just to show how a simple solution to the starting-area-shouldn't-be-an-island problem can be implemented with the new programmable noise system. The default terrain that ships with the game should be a lot better than that.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby IronCartographer » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:28 pm

TOGoS wrote:And to set the record straight, the second image was just to show how a simple solution to the starting-area-shouldn't-be-an-island problem can be implemented with the new programmable noise system. The default terrain that ships with the game should be a lot better than that.


The effect can be extremely localized, if the current "real island" starting areas continue to exist. Something like a 10x10 or 20x20 "webbing" would get the player out of those "starting area ponds" which can result in the crazy situation of players starting on an island in a pond on an island. :lol:

Well, actually to prevent impossible maps it would need to ensure resource access as well. Either the starting resource guarantees need to override water, or the webbing really does need to prevent islands.

Unless starting areas go to the next level of customization...
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby Robbyroy » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:14 am

It seems to me it would make more sense to allow the program to create the map. Then allow a limited visual of the players starting area. Allow the player to pick the spot for him to begin in. Rather than having program pick the spot, design the area, just keep the player off an island.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby mcvey » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:56 am

Robbyroy wrote:It seems to me it would make more sense to allow the program to create the map. Then allow a limited visual of the players starting area. Allow the player to pick the spot for him to begin in. Rather than having program pick the spot, design the area, just keep the player off an island.

I've seen this done before in a game I used to play a long time ago, It worked great as it allowed the player to choose to start as near to as many resources as the player wanted. Certainly never picked to start on an island.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby T-19 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:50 am

I don't know if this sort of post is allowed so apologies if it's not, assuming things progress smoothly how long until .16's out?
I also wanted to say that I love the game and these FF posts, having insight into the problems/solutions you guys encounter is great to read and hear about.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby Gully » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:22 am

Wow, the preview looks really awesome.


One of the problems I've been tackling is how to allow large bodies of water while ensuring that the player never starts on a tiny island. One way to do this is to add in a web-like structure near the starting area.


Here's my idea on that. The background story is, the player crashes with his spacesuit, right? Upon starting a new game, the map around starting location is generated. It is revealed to the player, then he is placed there, but for the first few seconds he can move over water. You also draw a parachute, since he is just about to land on the surface. This way you can start on an island if you want, but if you start on an island next to a big continent you can just move over there.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby R3vo » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:38 am

About the mod portal: I believe an ingame link to the portal is badly missing, same with a direct link to the forums.
I think it might be a good idea to seperate it a bit from the ingame menu and put it in a corner of the main menu screen.

Image
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby Loewchen » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:28 am

Robbyroy wrote:It seems to me it would make more sense to allow the program to create the map. Then allow a limited visual of the players starting area. Allow the player to pick the spot for him to begin in. Rather than having program pick the spot, design the area, just keep the player off an island.

I really like that idea, it might even be possible to add the neccessary ressources after choosing, so that general terrain/ressource generation does not need to "hack in" the starting area at all. It would work story wise as well, while you are decending in your craft you pick a landing site.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby Tomik » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:41 am

Klonan wrote:https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-207

What are those purple ore field splotches in the second map please? Oil? Did you change how oil is going to be extracted?
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby TOGoS » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:42 pm

Tomik wrote:
Klonan wrote:https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-207

What are those purple ore field splotches in the second map please? Oil? Did you change how oil is going to be extracted?


Resource patches show as blobs in the preview, because it shows probability of placement as opacity. In the game that would become a cluster of oil puddles.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby 5thHorseman » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:24 pm

Totally random thought: what if, during map generation, the game picked a cardinal direction at random and in that direction, it was impossible to have water on the axis line.

I'm not talking about a 1-square wide line, I'm talking about baking that rule into the map gen, or even using it as the starting point.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby MicFac » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:10 pm

there will proobably make a poll

yep, exactly what i thought :D

Im really looking forward to the new world generation!
My idea would be: Changing the biomes accordingly to the height levels that are generated by the noise function. So for example, there would be sand at levels just above water and there would by some snow on high mountains. This could maybe add a bit more depth to the game.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby AutomationIsFun » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:08 pm

I really like what's going on. Hopefully with 0.16 we'll see some more interesting maps. Also I think it would be cool if we had more advanced options in map generation with this new system like allowing to tweak noise weights without modding. Also it would be really interesting if there were more meaningfull biomes like swamps with a lot of random water - biome that is difficult to traverse or build in it but has a lot of oil for example. Or huge oceans that can only happen far away from start. Anyway it would be really cool if exploring would reveal new cool terrain features that are not possible near starting area.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby 5thHorseman » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:25 pm

MicFac wrote:So for example, there would be sand at levels just above water and there would by some snow on high mountains. This could maybe add a bit more depth to the game.


I see what you did there.
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Re: Friday Facts #207 - Lua noise specification

Postby SaintFlow » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:13 pm

I thought that 0.15 was the start of HD Textures and you will just push out more of the Textures as soon as you get them done. Seems not to be the case, why? :) I'd like those textures way better in the game i can play than only visible in fff's again!
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