Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

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MeduSalem
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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by MeduSalem » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:50 pm

IronCartographer wrote:Each reactor core needs direct fueling/emptying so it can't be completely enclosed like your second example shows.

Partial overlap (like beacon coverage tiling) might make things more interesting, along with using robots to transfer reactor products to the inner structures. But at that point there's the question of heat and whether reactors can transfer it between themselves or if you have to have a heat pipe connection to all of them--and if so, whether or not heat pipes can go underground.
Yeah, I know that the second example wouldn't exactly work like that because the middle one can't be filled with Uranium. It was mere an example... a proof of concept that the reactors could be shifted by 3 tiles and still connect to one another perfectly (which wouldn't be possible with 5x5 reactors).

And I hope that the heat can transfer between reactors... but even if not there would still be some space to get the heat pipes out from the middle reactor of the 3rd example... if there are underground heatpipes for them as well.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by IronCartographer » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:00 pm

MeduSalem wrote:And I hope that the heat can transfer between reactors... but even if not there would still be some space to get the heat pipes out from the middle reactor of the 3rd example... if there are underground heatpipes for them as well.
Well, actually, there's another argument against meltdowns if heat transfer from the interior isn't possible:
Malachite@IRC wrote:the center one doesnt need to emit heat to be useful
It would boost its neighbors as long as it had the fuel I/O.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Hertzila » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:48 am

It's a bit disappointing that there's no more closed water cycle. I hope you add it in at some other point. Having an optional way to make both coal and nuclear power production more efficient and make them less reliant on water sources would have been great.

I do like the non-exploding reactors though.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by The Eriksonn » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:20 am

Now when I think about it, this type of reactor "puzzle" is not that complex compared to big reactors, another minecraft mod. In big reactors there were even less type of buildings than here. uranium-->furnace-->reactor-->turbine-->power. The "puzzle" in there was in the reactor itself, you had to place the fuelrods, and coolant to get optimal heat and efficency, and it was basically to "blueprint it" everywhere. You only ever needed one per world if you knew what you were doing, and they dond explode.

It still felt fun, and it had the possibility to be easy and complex at the same time. i think that factorio reactors also can be fun (if I can put combinators in them, hehe)

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by hoho » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:24 am

Deadly-Bagel wrote:
Klonan wrote:
Deadly-Bagel wrote:Has nobody else noticed that you need almost 3 million ore to get a return on this mining productivity research? Per level? You won't see a return on level 10 mining productivity until you mine 30 million ore after completing the research. And that's not even considering the 5,100 Petroleum per level either, and assuming the research applies multiplicatively with itself rather than additively to the base, which I'm not convinced is what the FFF was saying.
The bonus is applied additively, after 10 researches you will have +20% productivity on all mining machines, including pumpjacks, after 50, thats +100%
Then that's even worse.

At level 51 the effect of the research is halved, you are only getting the bonus on the original value which is only half of what you are mining. On the other hand, the cost has gone up by 50x. The cost of the research is therefore 56,650 x 50 = 2,832,500 ore, so to start making a return on a 1% bonus you would need to mine 100 times that, almost 300 million ore. In no realistic sense is that worth it.
From what I understand, the research is there mostly just to have a resource sink in game that is something different from pumping out endless amount of rockets.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Xeanoa » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:45 am

hoho wrote:
Deadly-Bagel wrote:
Klonan wrote:
Deadly-Bagel wrote:Has nobody else noticed that you need almost 3 million ore to get a return on this mining productivity research? Per level? You won't see a return on level 10 mining productivity until you mine 30 million ore after completing the research. And that's not even considering the 5,100 Petroleum per level either, and assuming the research applies multiplicatively with itself rather than additively to the base, which I'm not convinced is what the FFF was saying.
The bonus is applied additively, after 10 researches you will have +20% productivity on all mining machines, including pumpjacks, after 50, thats +100%
Then that's even worse.

At level 51 the effect of the research is halved, you are only getting the bonus on the original value which is only half of what you are mining. On the other hand, the cost has gone up by 50x. The cost of the research is therefore 56,650 x 50 = 2,832,500 ore, so to start making a return on a 1% bonus you would need to mine 100 times that, almost 300 million ore. In no realistic sense is that worth it.
From what I understand, the research is there mostly just to have a resource sink in game that is something different from pumping out endless amount of rockets.
Really wish they'd add an alternative to rockets already, that's really getting old fast, but endless research as an resource sink feels empty. How about, say, an 'ultimate defence perimeter' project, which you supply with copious amounts of military equipment, and then call in settlers from your homeworld (possibly with an spaceship, construction needs parts to be sent to space with multiple rockets), which enables the 'permanent settlement' ending. That's both an extension to the current ending, and a much larger project.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by hoho » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:51 am

Xeanoa wrote:Really wish they'd add an alternative to rockets already, that's really getting old fast, but endless research as an resource sink feels empty. How about, say, an 'ultimate defence perimeter' project, which you supply with copious amounts of military equipment, and then call in settlers from your homeworld (possibly with an spaceship, construction needs parts to be sent to space with multiple rockets), which enables the 'permanent settlement' ending. That's both an extension to the current ending, and a much larger project.
Problem with that is no different than what we have now with rocket launch - it's still a specific goal after what you have nothing new to do.

Sure, it'd be additional content but it'd only push back the moment with no "end" goal from launching a rocket to completing that project. It won't solve the underlying problem that there isn't a new goal to do in-game after you have completed the "end game".

With endless rockets/research, at least you can do something with all the resources you dig up.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by liij » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:12 am

Coal power back up
Image

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Xeanoa » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:13 am

hoho wrote:
Xeanoa wrote:Really wish they'd add an alternative to rockets already, that's really getting old fast, but endless research as an resource sink feels empty. How about, say, an 'ultimate defence perimeter' project, which you supply with copious amounts of military equipment, and then call in settlers from your homeworld (possibly with an spaceship, construction needs parts to be sent to space with multiple rockets), which enables the 'permanent settlement' ending. That's both an extension to the current ending, and a much larger project.
Problem with that is no different than what we have now with rocket launch - it's still a specific goal after what you have nothing new to do.

Sure, it'd be additional content but it'd only push back the moment with no "end" goal from launching a rocket to completing that project. It won't solve the underlying problem that there isn't a new goal to do in-game after you have completed the "end game".

With endless rockets/research, at least you can do something with all the resources you dig up.
Why should I keep digging up resources to do research that'll likely never pay itself back?

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by hoho » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:17 am

Xeanoa wrote:Why should I keep digging up resources to do research that'll likely never pay itself back?
Same reason why people build 1 rocket per minute factories - because they can :)

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:41 am

hoho wrote:
Xeanoa wrote:Why should I keep digging up resources to do research that'll likely never pay itself back?
Same reason why people build 1 rocket per minute factories - because they can :)
Whee, finally.

Even so I have a big problem with it that unless you bother to do the calculations you won't know that it'll never pay itself off. I mean this is a research, you typically expect research to positively impact your game right? Not to mention they're marketing it in this FFF as a positive feature. You know a rocket isn't going to pay off. You launch the first one and it comes up with a message "Yay you finished the game! Do you want to keep playing?" which (disappointments for some people aside) doesn't pretend to be anything other than a resource sink.
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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by JJosh » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:04 am

Deadly-Bagel wrote: Whee, finally.

Even so I have a big problem with it that unless you bother to do the calculations you won't know that it'll never pay itself off. I mean this is a research, you typically expect research to positively impact your game right? Not to mention they're marketing it in this FFF as a positive feature. You know a rocket isn't going to pay off. You launch the first one and it comes up with a message "Yay you finished the game! Do you want to keep playing?" which (disappointments for some people aside) doesn't pretend to be anything other than a resource sink.
The rocket never "pays itself off" either, but people launch the thing. It's something to do. I personally prefer this research because there's a return on what's otherwise a returnless resource sink. Fifty levels in the tech means I'm moving my drills less often, which is already worth it to me. I'm also a fourteen boilers per 10 steam engines kind of guy, so I can't say that I care so much about efficiency that I wouldn't research the tech. It's either launch rockets for nothing, do nothing for nothing, or research the tech for something. Because of that, I don't see how the research could really ever be "too expensive". I get what you're saying but it seems like a non-issue to me, considering the alternative end game, keep playing if you want but you beat it resource sink we already have.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by NorDemoniac » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:59 am

IMHO, nuclear power is so clean, it doesn't pollute other than waste. Will this have to be transported out in barrels, be processed to reduce pollution, or dumped with a huge spike in pollution?

I think a meltdown/big explosion should be implemented. Using nuclear energy will give you a lot of available power, and it should have a giant risk of using it.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by malecord » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:31 am

After thinking a lot on it I think Nuclear power should produce something else in addition to energy.

Unless solar is changed or nuclear is made to really produces ludicrous amount of energy I highly doubt nuclear will ever be as efficient and convenient compared to it. Yes: solar has a it has a high cost in iron and copper and space. And maybe nuclear will actually be cheaper even taking into account the fact that it requires a constant feed of uranium. But the convenience of solar, the fact that mid/late game you can create a production line and then expand your power production by simply clicking on a blueprint is hard to match. For what I see nuclear has been designed to be a "non modular" puzzle. That is to use nuclear optimally you need to rearrange power plants with a proximity constraint. Which means that you can simply blueprint a new chunk if you want to increase the size. You need to demolish what is there and rearrange with a new pattern. By design.

It's ok to have something more complex to do in late game, but I fear that doing so will also make nuclear "redundant" by being "less optimal" than another techs we already have access to in early/mid game.

So why not make depleted fuel or surplus isotopes a requirement for certain techs / consumable items?
That way a player would have to deploy a reactor in order to access that content, regardless of the balance between different energy techs.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:31 am

JJosh wrote:The rocket never "pays itself off" either, but people launch the thing. It's something to do. I personally prefer this research because there's a return on what's otherwise a returnless resource sink. Fifty levels in the tech means I'm moving my drills less often, which is already worth it to me. I'm also a fourteen boilers per 10 steam engines kind of guy, so I can't say that I care so much about efficiency that I wouldn't research the tech. It's either launch rockets for nothing, do nothing for nothing, or research the tech for something. Because of that, I don't see how the research could really ever be "too expensive". I get what you're saying but it seems like a non-issue to me, considering the alternative end game, keep playing if you want but you beat it resource sink we already have.
I said the rocket doesn't pay itself off, but it doesn't pretend to. Mining productivity does.

Level fifty mining productivity tech will probably require you to move your mining drills two or three times on its own, even forgetting all the previous levels of research required to get there. Total ore required to finish up to and including level 50 is 3,611,437,500 - yes that's over three and a half billion copper and iron. So finishing that doesn't mean you're moving your mining drills less often (on the contrary), it means you have no life.

It's not like this is going to be the only infinite research, there will also (hopefully) be weapon damage researches or something that are at least a bit more useful than just "hey give me £1,000 and I'll give you £1 a year for the rest of your life".
Money might be the root of all evil, but ignorance is the heart.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by orlbardo » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:25 pm

Ah man , im pretty sad i can't see a beautiful nuclear reactor explosion ;_;. I really liked the cool ideas written in the previous friday facts about the nuclear reactors .In my opinion i would rather wait 4 weeks until all the cool physics are made for the nuclear reactor update (0.15) so that everyone could fully enjoy the dangers and the bonuses using the nuclear reactors, than having a booring nuclear reactor who does nothing that produces energy right ? I mean no risk no fun and things shouldn't be half made just to be some sort of ''there''. Half works are no good . Am I not right ? This was only a opinion . But you guys may now the best thing to do because you are the devs so , do the best thing you guys belive that should be done ^^.
Last edited by orlbardo on Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Uxi » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:46 pm

Deadly-Bagel wrote:Total ore required to finish up to and including level 50 is 3,611,437,500 - yes that's over three and a half billion copper and iron.
50 levels of "Mining productivity" research requires a total of 637,500 science packs.
Using your number for the ore required, that' is 3,611,437,500 ore / 637,500 science packs = 5665 ore per science pack.

That number seems a bit excessive to me, since a red science pack today only costs 3 ore :?

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:39 pm

Ah... Yeah I miscalculated there, multiplied the wrong figure. Total cost would actually be 72,165,000 which isn't much more feasible really. You would still be going through something like forty outposts to get that.

I refer to FFF 159 where the combined cost of science packs is 566 ore, plus other products (51 petroleum, 3.5 Sulphuric Acid, 20 stone, 17 coal, 2 lubricant).
Money might be the root of all evil, but ignorance is the heart.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by Linosaurus » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:54 pm

Perhaps the science pack costs has been massive changed since that FF.

On another topic. Let's make some ideas to make closed water cycle an option that fits nicely in but can still be completely ignored.

Here's mine.
  • Steam turbines are available way before nuclear. You can use them as a more powerful but not more efficient steam generator. You can research cooling towers too.
  • Turbines have an output pipe on the side for recycled water, but if it cannot be pumped out it just disappears.
  • This means that you can just ignore the output.
  • Additionally. If you build a closed loop system and the output pipe is jammed it will not stop like a refinery, it'll just evaporate your precious water. Players who build closed loop desert oasis power systems probably enjoy that. Sort of.
You know, I wouldn't build a closed loop coal powered steam turbine system. I'd just make sure the first power plant had its rest water available. Then the next power plant would be a blueprint with cooling towers and then the normal power plant. Using the same recycled water. Just a few power plants wide, in a line across the Sahara. It would be beautiful.... I may have gone off track there.

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Re: Friday Facts #173 - Nuclear stuff is almost done

Post by noliVe » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:57 pm

i would recommend a Meltdown ! Why?! Fun with the Garbage could be created.

Why not killing a small field arround the reaktor some "stone fields" between all buildings symbol for trash.
It must be some dirty trash you cannot use because of radiation. if you want build again at this place you have to get rid of these "stone" hills

- Recycle Center to regenerate some radiation and have "cement" for later purpose
- Not removed trash creates more pollution "the same" as before.

and please dont spoiler all the building possibilities ;)
Thanks

im looking into the bright future of Factorio!

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