Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Regular reports on Factorio development.
Post Reply
jomama
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:01 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by jomama » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:13 pm

It might be easier to satisfy all the different wants and make it more fun if the goggles became customizable like the armor. Different lenses, filters, electronics, and components like lamps could be researched, constructed, and swapped in and out. Heat- and night-vision could be stacked with the appropriate lenses or sensors, with filters and electronics balancing and color correcting. Advanced sensors could even increase damage (indirectly, by increasing accuracy or highlighting weak points on enemies).

Then maybe the wearer can even have a customized set for base building and switch to another when bug hunting or exploring, similar to what I (and I assume others) do with roboports vs shields.

If you wanted to get crazy, components could allow seeing hidden resources (underground? A new resource only visible in certain wavelengths? Radioactive ores?). Or the ability to control a vehicle remotely (maybe within a limited but extendable range).

Anyway, the most important thing is that everyone seems to have a different idea of what they want. Giving customization might not be the easiest solution but it might be the most satisfying and the most fun.

aober93
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by aober93 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:18 pm

When im on an endless highend game, i dont want to equip/unequip nightvision. It should not be in the way. How about research different night vision, and perhaps this makes more people happy.

The basic version is what we currently have, or what you propose. The next upgrade is perhaps what MiloRK posted. And the next upgrade includes the heat vision also what MiloRK posted.

Masterfox
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 5:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Masterfox » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:53 pm

jomama wrote:It might be easier to satisfy all the different wants and make it more fun if the goggles became customizable like the armor. Different lenses, filters, electronics, and components like lamps could be researched, constructed, and swapped in and out. Heat- and night-vision could be stacked with the appropriate lenses or sensors, with filters and electronics balancing and color correcting. Advanced sensors could even increase damage (indirectly, by increasing accuracy or highlighting weak points on enemies).

Then maybe the wearer can even have a customized set for base building and switch to another when bug hunting or exploring, similar to what I (and I assume others) do with roboports vs shields.

If you wanted to get crazy, components could allow seeing hidden resources (underground? A new resource only visible in certain wavelengths? Radioactive ores?). Or the ability to control a vehicle remotely (maybe within a limited but extendable range).

Anyway, the most important thing is that everyone seems to have a different idea of what they want. Giving customization might not be the easiest solution but it might be the most satisfying and the most fun.
All for it, but this would require a seperate night vision goggle slot, next to the armor/tool bar. Perhaps the goggles in th top slot, below a button to turn them on/off? Should be possible, right?

Dasani
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:12 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Dasani » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:55 pm

deef0000dragon1 wrote:Ill be honest, The night vision is still terrible, no matter how you look at it. I intend to use a mod that just removes the green.

If you do keep up with the terrible green effect, please let the color be a choice for someone to make, or even to turn it off altogether as a game setting. Colorblindness is a thing that exists, and forcing someone to use a specific color can be SOOO obnoxious for that.
Well, they are green to be realistic. That is how actual nightvision goggles work.

The color green was chosen because the way nightvision tech works, it can't differentiate color, so it would be black and white when it is rendered. So they changed it to green because it is easier on the eyes to stare at for lengthy periods of time, whereas black and white can hurt the eyes. Thats why old computer monitors also used green as the color for everything instead of white, because if you stare at it for hours it'll kill your vision otherwise.

Green is the practical choice. Furthermore, being colorblind shouldn't interfere with your ability to see using nightvision goggles with a green tint... Everything is "colorless" anyway, so even someone who was completely colorblind to all colors should be able to see just fine with them. You aren't supposed to distinguish colors while using them, everything is one color.

Zaflis
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:51 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Zaflis » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:59 pm

Dasani wrote:Well, they are green to be realistic. That is how actual nightvision goggles work.
See Adil's post on 3rd page. Modern night vision doesn't have to be green but full color: https://youtu.be/b4ZIdu1adWg?t=96

silverkitty23
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 6:52 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by silverkitty23 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:22 pm

The character can see 360 degrees and through walls and thick forest, and has technology centuries ahead of ours.
"realistic" (based on our current primitive technology) night vision shouldn't even be a consideration, just what is best for the game.

Silden
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:59 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Silden » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:26 pm

I don't like the current iteration of the night goggles, so I don't bother with them.
In the screenshots posted, the third looks even worse.
However the second, I really do like.

If there really is such a division among the developers (let alone the players), why not let us have all three, and we can then decide which one we prefer in our options panel.

Dasani
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:12 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Dasani » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:30 pm

Zaflis wrote:
Dasani wrote:Well, they are green to be realistic. That is how actual nightvision goggles work.
See Adil's post on 3rd page. Modern night vision doesn't have to be green but full color: https://youtu.be/b4ZIdu1adWg?t=96
Well that is certainly new if it is legit.

The ability to see color isn't something that has been possible before because the image enhancement keyed primarily off infrared light.

But that seems to be the technology the factorio guy's goggles is based off of however.

silverkitty23 wrote:The character can see 360 degrees and through walls and thick forest, and has technology centuries ahead of ours.
"realistic" (based on our current primitive technology) night vision shouldn't even be a consideration, just what is best for the game.
By the same logic, he should be able to make lights for his base that illuminate more than about 15 feet in either direction, should be able to create trains that run off of stored electricity instead of burning fuel, and be able to use the same tech he makes his portable fusion reactor with to create free energy in much, much less space that a field of solar panels, albeit at higher costs. But we don't see any of those things because it hurts gameplay. The nightvision mechanic is there to reduce the hindrance of night time on your ability to operate there, but the color overlay simulating nightvision goggles (which they are) is just a minor downside to using them.

If you want everything to have no costs or downsides, that is what modding is for. People already remove the green tint from goggles, so i'm not sure what the big deal is.

User avatar
Xterminator
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 970
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Xterminator » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:32 pm

silverkitty23 wrote:The character can see 360 degrees and through walls and thick forest, and has technology centuries ahead of ours.
"realistic" (based on our current primitive technology) night vision shouldn't even be a consideration, just what is best for the game.
This. I mean trying to make them "realistic" while forfeiting what actually looks good or works doesn't seem to coincide with the rest of the game. As stated previously, in Factorio we have technology decades or centuries ahead of real life stuff (portable fusion reactors, energy shields, flying worker robots), it would stand to reason that surely we would have technology to make much more advanced and improved night vision.
Dasani wrote: By the same logic, he should be able to make lights for his base that illuminate more than about 15 feet in either direction, should be able to create trains that run off of stored electricity instead of burning fuel, and be able to use the same tech he makes his portable fusion reactor with to create free energy in much, much less space that a field of solar panels, albeit at higher costs. But we don't see any of those things because it hurts gameplay. The nightvision mechanic is there to reduce the hindrance of night time on your ability to operate there, but the color overlay simulating nightvision goggles (which they are) is just a minor downside to using them.

If you want everything to have no costs or downsides, that is what modding is for. People already remove the green tint from goggles, so i'm not sure what the big deal is.
I agree with your first few points for sure. However, how does putting a green tint on your whole screen that is, quite literally, painful to look at not hurt gameplay? And again, I can see the point about things needing to have a downside or cost, but should that downside really be something that makes the game look horrible? Their cost is that they take power to run from your suit, just like shields or exoskeletons. We could certainly do without them making things look bad.
Image Image Image

jomama
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:01 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by jomama » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:12 pm

Masterfox wrote: All for it, but this would require a seperate night vision goggle slot, next to the armor/tool bar. Perhaps the goggles in th top slot, below a button to turn them on/off? Should be possible, right?
Oh absolutely. It would be so much easier if it had its own slot to equip/unequip or toggle on/off anyway. Can't be too hard just to add another slot to the existing toolbar.

I'm a big fan of the customizable equipment in general. The whole game is about building, customizing and optimizing. All the equipment that's worn or used that's not mass-produced could be modular and customizable as far as I'm concerned... Guns, vehicles, armor... The goggles are a good option because obviously everyone has a different idea of what they want it to look like.

Dasani
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:12 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Dasani » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:22 pm

Xterminator wrote:
silverkitty23 wrote:The character can see 360 degrees and through walls and thick forest, and has technology centuries ahead of ours.
"realistic" (based on our current primitive technology) night vision shouldn't even be a consideration, just what is best for the game.
This. I mean trying to make them "realistic" while forfeiting what actually looks good or works doesn't seem to coincide with the rest of the game. As stated previously, in Factorio we have technology decades or centuries ahead of real life stuff (portable fusion reactors, energy shields, flying worker robots), it would stand to reason that surely we would have technology to make much more advanced and improved night vision.
Dasani wrote: By the same logic, he should be able to make lights for his base that illuminate more than about 15 feet in either direction, should be able to create trains that run off of stored electricity instead of burning fuel, and be able to use the same tech he makes his portable fusion reactor with to create free energy in much, much less space that a field of solar panels, albeit at higher costs. But we don't see any of those things because it hurts gameplay. The nightvision mechanic is there to reduce the hindrance of night time on your ability to operate there, but the color overlay simulating nightvision goggles (which they are) is just a minor downside to using them.

If you want everything to have no costs or downsides, that is what modding is for. People already remove the green tint from goggles, so i'm not sure what the big deal is.
I agree with your first few points for sure. However, how does putting a green tint on your whole screen that is, quite literally, painful to look at not hurt gameplay? And again, I can see the point about things needing to have a downside or cost, but should that downside really be something that makes the game look horrible? Their cost is that they take power to run from your suit, just like shields or exoskeletons. We could certainly do without them making things look bad.
Nighttime is intended to be a hindrance and a part of the game. You're supposed to have limited visibility during night, this is a gameplay mechanic and is intended.

Night vision goggles are an optional means of reducing the hindrance of nighttime. It lets you see better than not having them, but it still isn't as good as being daylight.

It sounds like what you want is for them to completely negate nighttime altogether and have no downsides to using them. If you don't like the green, you can put up lights in your base and not operate outside of your base during nighttime. These are gameplay decisions. You can completely avoid the optional nightvision goggles if you choose. You say it makes the game look horrible, but if you are using them you have obviously decided you'd rather see in green than barely see at all. Sounds like a net gain and a benefit to me.

And again, if you want everything in the game to work perfect with no downsides at all, there are mods for that. I don't see the problem.

skillabstinenz
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:13 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by skillabstinenz » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:32 pm

I‘m using NV as soon as I have a suit. Normally I don‘t notice it turning on or off. So I cannot understand what all the fuss is about, but I heard in lets plays, it was worse in older versions?! When was that?

I also like that it turns itself automatically on and off at nearly the perfect times.

Your new suggestions are way worse than it‘s now.

If you want to change them, implement the light glasses, which change the darkness of the night to day. But there should be a mod already for that (and most other options voiced in the thread), so what‘s the point?!

Iphrid
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 2:49 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Iphrid » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:17 pm

Maybe this has been put out and shot down a thousand times before but what about instead of even having night vision, we can just upgrade the flashlight we already have? Maybe make it so it goes all the way around the player and maybe have a mk.2 for it that makes it a bit bigger.

I do like the heat vision idea but I think its main use would just be to detect biters. Maybe something like a pheromones detection thing might be more practical. It might make the biters easy to see, make them glow a bit, give them a red outline or something. That way you wouldn't have to deal with heat vision with other parts in the world like fire or factory parts.
Last edited by Iphrid on Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ಠ_ಠ

silverkitty23
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 6:52 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by silverkitty23 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:22 pm

Dasani wrote:
Xterminator wrote:I can see the point about things needing to have a downside or cost, but should that downside really be something that makes the game look horrible? Their cost is that they take power to run from your suit
It sounds like what you want is for them to completely negate nighttime altogether and have no downsides to using them.
Sigh

And I never advocated for ruling out nighttime entirely - I advocated for not having painful green on top of places where I've placed lights already. So: start with nighttime, now do something different with the darkest areas, without ruining the lit up areas. That's what I want. Why does ruining the already lit areas have to be the cost? Why can't something else be the cost? Why can't electricity, space, or time spent be the cost? (yeah, if you dig around, you'll find my original post (not the one you replied to) did advocate against module space being a cost, too - but that doesn't make that Xterminator's argument)

Not that "negating nighttime altogether" should be ruled out instantly (even though that wasn't Xterminator or I said at all) because maybe it's only meant to be a hindrance at the start of the game. "Using a pick takes time, you really have to work at a coal patch to get coal. What you want a drilling platform? But that negates the picking at coal altogether with no downside." "When the game starts, you have to carry materials around and insert them into machines yourself. Belts and inserters negate that altogether with no downside."
Last edited by silverkitty23 on Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MiloRK
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by MiloRK » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:30 am

I think this is a better edit:
Night Vision_6.png
Night Vision_6.png (3.15 MiB) Viewed 1584 times
Each light-source has a different and more appropriate gradient, the night-areas are more distinct, the aliens stand out better and the outlines don't get chaotic in a group, and all the wonderful color (even of the aliens) is restored in the light :)

Iphrid
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 2:49 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Iphrid » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:02 am

Iphrid wrote:I do like the heat vision idea but I think its main use would just be to detect biters. Maybe something like a pheromones detection thing might be more practical. It might make the biters easy to see, make them glow a bit, give them a red outline or something. That way you wouldn't have to deal with heat vision with other parts in the world like fire or factory parts.
MiloRK wrote:I think this is a better edit:
Night Vision_6.png
Each light-source has a different and more appropriate gradient, the night-areas are more distinct, the aliens stand out better and the outlines don't get chaotic in a group, and all the wonderful color (even of the aliens) is restored in the light :)
Done.
ಠ_ಠ

User avatar
vaderciya
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:55 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by vaderciya » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:15 pm

I think this looks much much worse O.O
pls no

Eitelkeit
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:48 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Eitelkeit » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:03 pm

Image

This is by far the best nv implementation i've seen.

User avatar
Mooncat
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1164
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Mooncat » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:44 pm

giustizieri25 wrote:Image
I like the edited sea color.

Art1985
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #168 - Nightvision Nightmare

Post by Art1985 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:16 pm

I would like to see somekind of light tower for defence, that would illumine enemies , like it is in Fallout 4.

Post Reply

Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: otobot1