Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

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torham
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by torham » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:54 am

SomeDuder wrote:I'm not reading 5 pages worth of terrible signatures, wacky avatars and usage of the English language that would make the Queen activate Her bionics and usher in the Second Empire in order to teach the world how to correctly spell in the only relevant language.

Anyway. What I was getting at - while I'm sure someone already suggested this, why not remove artifacts completely then? Unless it's for mod support (But in that case, just let the modders create their own drops, problem solved), artifacts have no use. Fine. Be that way. What's next? Remove the natives? eSports? :?

If it were up to me though, I'd have taken the opposite route - multiply the artifact requirement of modules and science 4 flasks by (at least) 10, so that the 5400+ artifacts currently in my storage warehouse could actually be used for something.
Oh, asi by sa ti viac páčilo keby sme každý písali v našom rodnom jazyku? Určite by sme narobili menej pravopisných chýb.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Klonan » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:19 am

torham wrote:
SomeDuder wrote:I'm not reading 5 pages worth of terrible signatures, wacky avatars and usage of the English language that would make the Queen activate Her bionics and usher in the Second Empire in order to teach the world how to correctly spell in the only relevant language.

Anyway. What I was getting at - while I'm sure someone already suggested this, why not remove artifacts completely then? Unless it's for mod support (But in that case, just let the modders create their own drops, problem solved), artifacts have no use. Fine. Be that way. What's next? Remove the natives? eSports? :?

If it were up to me though, I'd have taken the opposite route - multiply the artifact requirement of modules and science 4 flasks by (at least) 10, so that the 5400+ artifacts currently in my storage warehouse could actually be used for something.
Oh, asi by sa ti viac páčilo keby sme každý písali v našom rodnom jazyku? Určite by sme narobili menej pravopisných chýb.
Exactly, the forum is in english, but it isnt just for native speakers. Everyone should be respectful to those for whom it isn't a first language.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by ChurchOrganist » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:57 am

TomyTheBest wrote:Dear Dev Team,

..... and here are a few ideas:
- make more deep, dense, varied, the other aspects of the game.
- the bitter killing would be more like playing Diablo :) With dungeons, some epic Boss like Duriel, dropping rare equipments, (maybe quests)
- make more more variability into the militray. Tha basics would be craftable from the curent used sources but it would be fun to discover the map for rare dropps, guns, armors, bows, helmets, amulets, rings, soul stones :)
- the most of the buildings would have an alien tech version. The bitter nests would drop unique sources or receipts for a more efficiency ....steam for example.
- The map would contain lost factories where the bitters are win before. Like in the Jurassic park :D It would be fun to discover a woodchest with some stack of red circuit. ;)

Please let me know your thoughts about those.

cheers
Chucky
It seems to me that this kind of thing would be achievable as a scenario: in fact I am currently working on a scenario in which you have landed on a planet where someone else has been marooned, and you find the decaying rocket silo they used to escape very near to your starting position, and as you start to explore you find other abandoned technology, which, on completion of a condition you can repair and use yourself.

It is slow work though, as the scenario creation process is pretty undocumented, and I am relying on picking apart the ones supplied with the game, together with what I know from the modding interface to produce it.

It would be really helpful to have some documentation on the scenario creation process, and, whilst I realise that the devs want to finish the game, the creation of added content is really important to the success of a game of this nature. So please, if you can make time, can we have some docs on how to do scenario creation.

Regarding "pink goo" as most of us seem to call it :) I feel that it should stay in the game for use by modders and scenario writers - it could make a good currency for example - but I would welcome its removal from the vanilla game, as it just becomes a nuisance in late game, when you have hundreds of thousands of the stuff, but if you don't pick it up it is a potential agent for game lag.

It's a great game though - keep up the good work, and thank you for your efforts so far, which have given me hours of entertainment far in excess in comparison to the cost.
Want to know where the biters chewing your power plant have come from??
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by js1 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:07 pm

Rhamphoryncus wrote:I agree with the reasons for removing the artifacts but I will miss the little pink anime girls.
I will miss the pink anime girls too! Although I would also like to voice my support in leaving artifacts in for optional things, mainly player equipment. So you could win the game (and do everything) without artifacts, they would just be needed for some special weapons and equipments that makes the fight with aliens easier. And they should perhaps be made rarer, too.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by bobingabout » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:31 pm

Klonan wrote:
torham wrote:
SomeDuder wrote:I'm not reading 5 pages worth of terrible signatures, wacky avatars and usage of the English language that would make the Queen activate Her bionics and usher in the Second Empire in order to teach the world how to correctly spell in the only relevant language.

Anyway. What I was getting at - while I'm sure someone already suggested this, why not remove artifacts completely then? Unless it's for mod support (But in that case, just let the modders create their own drops, problem solved), artifacts have no use. Fine. Be that way. What's next? Remove the natives? eSports? :?

If it were up to me though, I'd have taken the opposite route - multiply the artifact requirement of modules and science 4 flasks by (at least) 10, so that the 5400+ artifacts currently in my storage warehouse could actually be used for something.
Oh, asi by sa ti viac páčilo keby sme každý písali v našom rodnom jazyku? Určite by sme narobili menej pravopisných chýb.
Exactly, the forum is in English, but it isn't just for native speakers. Everyone should be respectful to those for whom it isn't a first language.
I agree. Language is a barrier, English speakers find it annoying that non-English sometimes post unintelligible translations... they fail to realise what it's like for the poor non-English person trying to write it in the first place. You should know if you read my sub-forum that I do try.

The one that bugs me at the moment, which is on that quoted list though... is signatures.

and re-adding artifacts is something I've considered.
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by daniel34 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm

SomeDuder wrote:I'm not reading 5 pages worth of terrible signatures, wacky avatars [...]
bobingabout wrote:The one that bugs me at the moment, which is on that quoted list though... is signatures.
If they really bother you so much you can disable the display of signatures and avatars (amongst other things) in the User Control Panel --> Board preferences --> Edit display options.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Atox » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:55 pm

I really like the idea of removing Alien Artifacts from research and production.

I also like the idea of making them consumables.

Perhaps to boost research speed for a cycle.

Or to make extra powerful ammo: Artifact enhanced grenades, rockets, bullets, capsules, etc.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by eformo » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:46 pm

Hmmm...

I haven't played the base game since 0.12 or so, but I feel like eliminating the artifacts will improve the base game.

It's the mods I'm more concerned about here. Bob's mods (among many other mod sets) makes heavy use of the alien artifacts, enough so to add 6 additional types of alien artifacts. I'm concerned that if too much of the base game support for the artifacts is removed, then these mods will suffer significantly. I'm always stretched, not for enough alien artifacts, but for enough purple artifacts and for enough blue artifacts, etc. etc.

The artifacts are disappearing because they were a small part of the base game. But they are a large part of many modded games. I'm hoping that they don't take out the ability of a mod to still use these mechanics for the artifacts, just because the base game won't be using those mechanics any longer.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by giustizieri25 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:53 pm

I'd rather prefer to keep using the alien artifact for improving the science. My preferred option would be if they generate 1 science pack, instead of 10 as it currently is. With the new science packs that will appear in release 0.15, maybe alien artifacts could be restriced only in the military branch of science production. Does that sound reasonable?

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by giustizieri25 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:56 pm

Another reason why alien artifacts should not be removed is that you can define objectives like "Collect 1000 alien artifacts in 1 hour or so ... ". I quite would like that...

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by asw122 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:23 pm

TBH, one thing I'd like to see is (on top of the established change to artifacts) more variety of enemies and ones that are just more powerful at higher evolutions. I play with full bob's mods and even with his additional types and the mod that makes them split into the next size down when they die, the aliens are still comparatively easy once you get to the point of lasers and construction bots.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by HeadsUpHigh » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:04 pm

Removing artifacts solves the issue of not being able to automate infinite science, but it makes biters even more of a pain instead of an actual gameplay element. With the artifacts, you had to deal with biters for new resources, research, power armor. So now you only have to fight them for gaining access to resources. Which is a bit not enough for putting the player in such imbalanced and boring battles.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by aubergine18 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:48 am

In late game, why not invert the biters reaction to player - make them run away. This way player has to fight biters for territory in early-mid game, but by late game they'll just get out of the way to avoid being further decimated by player.

It's like the evolution factor would be a curve - at from 0 --> 0.5 the biters get stronger and try to reclaim territory, from 0.5 --> 0.7 they try massive raids on player positions, from 0.7 --> 0.9 they try massive defence to hold on to their territory, from 0.9 --> 1.0 they accept defeat and start fleeing from player.

Failing that, they could become land fish, and start burrowing under player defences and popping up inside bases :twisted:
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by RobertTerwilliger » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:43 am

HeadsUpHigh wrote:Removing artifacts solves the issue of not being able to automate infinite science, but it makes biters even more of a pain instead of an actual gameplay element. With the artifacts, you had to deal with biters for new resources, research, power armor. So now you only have to fight them for gaining access to resources. Which is a bit not enough for putting the player in such imbalanced and boring battles.
Actually, in 90%+ situations the reason I fight biters is preventing them from attacking me. When they come into pollution range - I just push them back so they don't bother me with continuous attacks.
(Honestly, as I know, this is considered kinda basic biter-managing strategy, even recommended for beginners not to get overwhelmed).
However once I tried to play "no biter clearing, conquer only for resource capture" (one of those virtual rules you set up for yourself to make game more replayable), and I quickly have faced the fact that I actually NEED MUCH MORE those artifact to proceed, even having alien SP assemblers-3 maximum buffed with productivity-3 modules.

So, removing artifacts from "needed" resources is good, but as I've written before (as well as many others), combat should be at least somewhat rewarding (the fact they don't attack you for a while is just not enough really)
There're tons of ways we can possibly use them - production of higher tier ammo (kill for kill), infinite heavily-diminished personal equipment.
Or make them drop really rare and set them to make, say, modules mk4, or, once again, infinite personal equipment, or any other upgraded stuff, that won't be OP, but will reward you for your deeds.
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by aka13 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:16 am

aubergine18 wrote:In late game, why not invert the biters reaction to player - make them run away. This way player has to fight biters for territory in early-mid game, but by late game they'll just get out of the way to avoid being further decimated by player.

It's like the evolution factor would be a curve - at from 0 --> 0.5 the biters get stronger and try to reclaim territory, from 0.5 --> 0.7 they try massive raids on player positions, from 0.7 --> 0.9 they try massive defence to hold on to their territory, from 0.9 --> 1.0 they accept defeat and start fleeing from player.

Failing that, they could become land fish, and start burrowing under player defences and popping up inside bases :twisted:
That is absolutely brilliant. A wonderful idea, I never thought of that. It would solve so many problems and would be so fitting. Maybe let the biters have a final "siege" before they give in, like the mode there was with rocket defense, when they constantly attacked the players base.
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Matthias_Wlkp » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:29 pm

I'm still new to the game (haven't cleared a nest with anything tougher than a small worm), but I really like the idea of extracting something from those alien bases.

I don't know if it was already discussed, but maybe it would be possible to have either:
- "Spawners" roots in the ground around a base, that you could extract with a mining drill
- "Alien blood" pool under each spawner, that you could extract with an Oil Well, or modified Oil Well (a red one ;))

I see this as a win-win:
- the RP aspect is kept
- ailien artifact extraction can become automated

The quantity of these resources would need some balancing, but would be doable.

I know that this is a very late development stage and devs want to lock the features list, but still - maybe this is worth something?

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Olipro » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:52 pm

I like the Alien Artifacts in principle but they could have done with a few tweaks rather than throwing them out entirely - I always had a few ideas on how to expand their usefulness, these things could of course be a mod just as easily as in the base game.

1) Potentially tweak the accumulation rate - you do amass a lot, but then it would be equally viable to give the player things to spend it all on.
2) Make them automatically drawn to a player - walking over them is annoying, they should collect in a wide sphere of influence.
3) Make them a throwable (or ingredient for something) that can be used to pacify natives within a certain range - thus if a massive attack party comes, you can make the peacefully return from whence they came... for a time. (being able to stock turrets with these would then be useful in tandem with a circuit network so that it can be deployed if they breach conventional defences)
4) Make them a source of regeneration - they could be involved in replenishing depleted or (maybe only dwindling) patches of resources and trees. Of course you would want careful tuning to avoid making it so the player never has to expand on all but the easiest of settings - perhaps by making them usable a limited number of times on each patch of resource.
5) Directly consumable for brief temporary boosts to things like health or speed, perhaps even allow you to mess with the temporal plane and speed through the night time.

This would make having them feel rewarding and beneficial to gameplay without making them essential to completion.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by factoriouzr » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:32 pm

vanatteveldt wrote:
factoriouzr wrote: Interesting ideas. Personally I wouldn't like it if I needed fuel for my suit functions. That would get annoying. Perhaps other ways to use alien artifacts like giving boosts to research or converting into oil or coal, or other ways to supplement your existing resources, but not as an outright requirement to run fusion reactors in your power armor. If things are changed as you suggest that would basically make fusion reactors useless because you are going from solar panels to a less advanced form of power, where you now require fuel. Advancing on the tech tree should allow for infinite power as it does now.

What you suggest might make sense for early-mid game power source for power armor as an alternative without changing the existing sources of power.
I disagree :). You have the choice between a less compact, but sustainable energy source (solar+batteries), a more compact, sustainable, day-only source (solar), and a very compact source that uses fuel. If a stack of artifacts lasts one or multiple hours, I would probably choose fusion so I can have maximal skeletons+roboports. If I am attacking I would certainly choose fusion so you have more shields and you pick up new artifacts anyway. This was, you introduce a real choice instead of the now mindless use of fusion power
I respectfully disagree :) lol. I still think using fuel is for early to mid game to get some of the tech in power armor. We have fusion reactors now that don't use a fuel source and are infinite, I like this. I don't want to be a long way away from my base and then get stuck there. Eg. if you have a lot of exoskeleton legs and you run really fast there, but then you run out of fuel and you have biters set to really low and you can't find any or you find a base here and there but you already cleared them all out to your base, so now you have to go other ways away from your base to get fuel just to get back to your base or walk really really slowly back.

No thank you!!! Like I said, early to mid game, it's an option, late game, I want my unlimited uber power sources (right now that's fusion) ;)

It's a convenience and fun factor thing. It's not about realism or not. Just like you can carry hundreds of trains and thousands of items in your pocket and robots can place down entire trains in one go, this just works for the gameplay.

Though we should have fusion power as a power source for our base.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by factoriouzr » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:37 pm

Xterminator wrote:Well... I have never really been against any change made to the game up until now. I am however very against the idea of removing the artifacts. I see part of the reasoning behind it, but I think it's a big missed opportunity. Granted, with them being removed from the science pack recipes, there would be virtually no use for them as it stands now, but I think like many others do, that they would be great for late game improvements to your factory in one way or another.
As other people suggested, perhaps giving a boost to machines or some military type of item or boost.

That way they aren't required like they are now, but for those who choose to, they can be used to push the factory or your military power to the max. I think almost everyone, including you Devs will agree that the combat is not the most exciting part of the game doesn't serve a huge purpose right now. The problem I see though, is that by removing thr artifacts from the game, that is just amplifying and making the problem worse. Because now, at least for me, the biters become even more of an annoyance and chore if I wouldn't even get anything out of clearing them.
I don't think it would be too hard to add some way for the artifacts to be used to boost machines or labs with perhaps diminishing returns.

The fluid changes make sense and sound good though. And the sample theme art is fantastic, I can't wait to see more of that!
I agree, biters should give rewards for beating them aside from just more land, but since this game is about automation, there should be a way to farm the biters infinitely in base and they should also drop artifacts but at a low percent chance so it still makes sense to explore or just build a large farm to get the same amount of artifacts.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by factoriouzr » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:40 pm

AxoRex97 wrote:
Xterminator wrote:Well... I have never really been against any change made to the game up until now. I am however very against the idea of removing the artifacts. I see part of the reasoning behind it, but I think it's a big missed opportunity. Granted, with them being removed from the science pack recipes, there would be virtually no use for them as it stands now, but I think like many others do, that they would be great for late game improvements to your factory in one way or another.
As other people suggested, perhaps giving a boost to machines or some military type of item or boost.

That way they aren't required like they are now, but for those who choose to, they can be used to push the factory or your military power to the max. I think almost everyone, including you Devs will agree that the combat is not the most exciting part of the game doesn't serve a huge purpose right now. The problem I see though, is that by removing thr artifacts from the game, that is just amplifying and making the problem worse. Because now, at least for me, the biters become even more of an annoyance and chore if I wouldn't even get anything out of clearing them.
I don't think it would be too hard to add some way for the artifacts to be used to boost machines or labs with perhaps diminishing returns.

The fluid changes make sense and sound good though. And the sample theme art is fantastic, I can't wait to see more of that!
I 100% agree with what Xterm and other like-minded folk say. I have been looking forward to an eventual combat balance for some time now. Now the developers are basically removing any incentive to even leave your base. I enjoy both the combat and factory-building aspects, and it seems kind of a step backwards to remove such an intrinsic mechanic from the game.
I have also been waiting for a combat update to the game for a long time. We need more types of biters, better interesting types, interesting attack patters, ways to make the game harder, but also cool new military options and toys. Combat for me in this game is a large part of the enjoyment of it and I almost always put biters on max everything but they still aren't challenging or interesting enough.

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