Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

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TheVeteraNoob
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by TheVeteraNoob » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:30 pm

It would be pretty cool if the boost that people want in assemblers would add a 25% boost to the productivity bar and only one can be consumed per craft. This way if one wanted to they could accumulate massive numbers of artifacts and never run out of a use. Using them in fast crafting items such as green chips would be a quick way to waste them and using it in rockets and oil would be the most useful method to consume them.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by vanatteveldt » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:18 pm

factoriouzr wrote: Interesting ideas. Personally I wouldn't like it if I needed fuel for my suit functions. That would get annoying. Perhaps other ways to use alien artifacts like giving boosts to research or converting into oil or coal, or other ways to supplement your existing resources, but not as an outright requirement to run fusion reactors in your power armor. If things are changed as you suggest that would basically make fusion reactors useless because you are going from solar panels to a less advanced form of power, where you now require fuel. Advancing on the tech tree should allow for infinite power as it does now.

What you suggest might make sense for early-mid game power source for power armor as an alternative without changing the existing sources of power.
I disagree :). You have the choice between a less compact, but sustainable energy source (solar+batteries), a more compact, sustainable, day-only source (solar), and a very compact source that uses fuel. If a stack of artifacts lasts one or multiple hours, I would probably choose fusion so I can have maximal skeletons+roboports. If I am attacking I would certainly choose fusion so you have more shields and you pick up new artifacts anyway. This was, you introduce a real choice instead of the now mindless use of fusion power

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Gandalf » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:21 pm

I like the artefacts, I'd be quite sad when they are gone. :<

1. They give an incentive to hunt aliens beside "they are in the way". They force you to be offensive for a small portion of the game. I liked that. This makes it necessary to do a small bit of planning ahead when you construct your factory. You have to make sure you keep up on research to match their strength Otherwise you can end up in a dire situation where the aliens have gotten very strong but you're still running around in tier one armour. I like this aspect, it adds a bit of complexity that isn't just "how many input lines do I need to make this?". They offer a different kind of resource mechanic, which adds some much needed variety.

2. I also like to measure how many aliens I've killed. That may be a very roundabout thing but to me it's something satisfying when I return from hunting and have a box full of cotton candy to show for, even if it isn't used for anything.

In my opinion alien artefacts should be used *more* in production, rather than abolished. I believe this concept exists in many games, where you need to beat enemies in order to acquire their technology, so you can make better weapons to beat more enemies… So in my opinion alien artefacts should still be part of military research and maybe also of things like a third tier of amo (i.e. something that is produced in larger quantity).

I also wouldn't mind if biters/spitters dropped some small artefacts as they do in various mods. That would make it possible to automate artefact collection to some degree which would open up a whole new world of possibilities without the hassle of having to collect every single artefact you might encounter in the wild (maybe make them "decompose" if they start accumulating without getting picked up).
Last edited by Gandalf on Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by sekanz » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:27 pm

I would like to see a machine that can deconstruct items into ingredients. Even if it didnt give back everything, i'd be okay with that. But it would allow me to pull resources back out of things that i didnt want to have anymore, like burner miners.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by fishycat » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:43 pm

Hmm, not sure if I like the idea, that you want to banish our gibblets :o

I would prefer to have to use them more, instead of totally kick them out of the game.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Xterminator » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:56 pm

Well... I have never really been against any change made to the game up until now. I am however very against the idea of removing the artifacts. I see part of the reasoning behind it, but I think it's a big missed opportunity. Granted, with them being removed from the science pack recipes, there would be virtually no use for them as it stands now, but I think like many others do, that they would be great for late game improvements to your factory in one way or another.
As other people suggested, perhaps giving a boost to machines or some military type of item or boost.

That way they aren't required like they are now, but for those who choose to, they can be used to push the factory or your military power to the max. I think almost everyone, including you Devs will agree that the combat is not the most exciting part of the game doesn't serve a huge purpose right now. The problem I see though, is that by removing thr artifacts from the game, that is just amplifying and making the problem worse. Because now, at least for me, the biters become even more of an annoyance and chore if I wouldn't even get anything out of clearing them.
I don't think it would be too hard to add some way for the artifacts to be used to boost machines or labs with perhaps diminishing returns.

The fluid changes make sense and sound good though. And the sample theme art is fantastic, I can't wait to see more of that!
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Redstylt » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:56 pm

MrGoodbits wrote:I like the idea of the artifacts giving a boost, but maybe not just research. Make them like consumable modules. Anything you feed them into operate 10% better for a time.

"Aliens Power Ups!"

Mr Goodbits...
+10 for research consummable speed boosts

+5 for consummable modules(maybe we can unlock a research to use as consummable speed module ? )
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by tonsrd » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:05 pm

sekanz wrote:I would like to see a machine that can deconstruct items into ingredients. Even if it didnt give back everything, i'd be okay with that. But it would allow me to pull resources back out of things that i didnt want to have anymore, like burner miners.
like this mod ? https://github.com/VictorRos/reverse-factory

ive currently got natural evolution installed ( harder biters 3 types of 4 sizes / spawners more hp ) it comes with a building to pickup Small / Large Alien Artifact ( to those from bob mods asking ), RobotArmy mod adds a way to automate a way of collecting AA , send out lil robots and all kills/hives lot is auto picked up and transported to a chest in main base .


I Personally would like the biters to be harder, spawn more often, a true death world in every game .
War is the only path forward for me.

I dont mind removeing AA from early-med game science but they should still have a role in high-endgame science / building/war use...a way to turn AA into fuel for fusion reactor building id get behind.


@to those asking for arty theres 2 mods I know of that add those ( bio_industries, and additional turrets )

everything everyone in this thread is asking for is in a mod somewhere on these forums, just wish more mods would become part of the base game.( my fav mod is Youki and Uranuim Power ) both add more bullet ammo and a gun turret that's usefull endgame.
Last edited by tonsrd on Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by AxoRex97 » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:09 pm

Xterminator wrote:Well... I have never really been against any change made to the game up until now. I am however very against the idea of removing the artifacts. I see part of the reasoning behind it, but I think it's a big missed opportunity. Granted, with them being removed from the science pack recipes, there would be virtually no use for them as it stands now, but I think like many others do, that they would be great for late game improvements to your factory in one way or another.
As other people suggested, perhaps giving a boost to machines or some military type of item or boost.

That way they aren't required like they are now, but for those who choose to, they can be used to push the factory or your military power to the max. I think almost everyone, including you Devs will agree that the combat is not the most exciting part of the game doesn't serve a huge purpose right now. The problem I see though, is that by removing thr artifacts from the game, that is just amplifying and making the problem worse. Because now, at least for me, the biters become even more of an annoyance and chore if I wouldn't even get anything out of clearing them.
I don't think it would be too hard to add some way for the artifacts to be used to boost machines or labs with perhaps diminishing returns.

The fluid changes make sense and sound good though. And the sample theme art is fantastic, I can't wait to see more of that!
I 100% agree with what Xterm and other like-minded folk say. I have been looking forward to an eventual combat balance for some time now. Now the developers are basically removing any incentive to even leave your base. I enjoy both the combat and factory-building aspects, and it seems kind of a step backwards to remove such an intrinsic mechanic from the game.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by vanatteveldt » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:13 pm

tonsrd wrote:
sekanz wrote:I would like to see a machine that can deconstruct items into ingredients. Even if it didnt give back everything, i'd be okay with that. But it would allow me to pull resources back out of things that i didnt want to have anymore, like burner miners.

like this mod ? https://github.com/VictorRos/reverse-factory
Or a trivial mod I made a while ago: https://mods.factorio.com/mods/vanatteveldt/recycling: allows burner inserters/miners and steel furnaces to be smelted back to iron/steel in regular smelters.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Proxy » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:16 pm

speaking of Art.
someone ever Noticed that this Little Arm coming from the Left is technically phasing Through the Shaft because it Rotates Behind the Gear?
Image
it's so damn Minor, but now i can never make it Unseen xD
Let's just wait til the Age of Iron Stars

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by xeln4g4 » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:28 pm

Alien artifact collecting was a nice part in my opinion, it is also true that "time spent collecting all the loot becomes a tediously long and monotonous task after each victory" ... ok, this is partially true, but removing AA completly doesn't seems a good choice to me for 5 main reasons:

1) It was fitting into the game and story concept of FACTORIO (and similar games) to have some loot from the alien specie (even if the alien specie doesn't seem very evoluted)
2) As you said ... it gives some RPG feeling which is nice.
3) Collecting AA it's fun and rewarding especially at the beginning of the game when cleaning the alien areas is not so easy, and i mean ... at least untill you reach 200+ hours it's not that bad and many players don't play that much FACTORIO. After many gameplay hours, it might become one of the tedious duty, i agree.
4) An "easy" science was somehow rewarding and relaxing after all that hard work on Science pack 2 and 3.
5) Force you to leave base and do something else than building and building and planning and thinking ...

I would keep them in game and use them AT LEAST for high tech equipment and other high tech building/construction (if not for a Science pack line). The new research system seem very very demanding in term of concentration for the player.

Keep up the good work ... ah and btw ... research overhaul scaaaaaring :shock: :shock: :shock: !!!

Have 400 gameplay hours on records ... great GAME guys!

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Doomquill » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:30 pm

I'm a little late to the party, but I just wanted to say I LOVE REMOVING ALIEN ARTIFACTS! THANK YOU!

I play equal numbers of games with biters, for the rpg type challenge, and without, so I can not worry about things breaking while I'm doing stuff. I like the biters, in the right circumstances, but I always hated that killing these random aliens was THE SECRET to getting off the planet. Thematically it was silly to me, and logistically it was obnoxious.

You guys are wonderful and Factorio is by far my favorite game. Thank you for making it, and continuing to improve it.

PS I'm assuming that artifact generation will be something that still *can* happen via mods, so all the unhappy people can recreate the dark times as they desire.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Souper07 » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:42 pm

My 2 cents:
Make it possible to finish the game without having to kill biters. But, in order to utilize the never ending research and more advanced technologies, artifacts would be required. Upgrades like faster shooting speed, research speed, rocket damage, flamethrower damage, bot movement speed, follower robot count, turret damage, etc etc would all still require purple sceince.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Marconos » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:58 pm

Souper07 wrote:My 2 cents:
Make it possible to finish the game without having to kill biters. But, in order to utilize the never ending research and more advanced technologies, artifacts would be required. Upgrades like faster shooting speed, research speed, rocket damage, flamethrower damage, bot movement speed, follower robot count, turret damage, etc etc would all still require purple sceince.
I agree with this model. I love the biter aspect of having to kill biters to finish but I know many don't. I'm willing to concede there. Removing them totally just seems wrong to me. Using them as enhancements as others have said or making them part of the requirements for the advanced research. Balancing them around a reduced role makes more sense. My thinking, spend more timing finding a use and making them easier to collect then removing them.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Drury » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:58 pm

Proxy wrote:speaking of Art.
someone ever Noticed that this Little Arm coming from the Left is technically phasing Through the Shaft because it Rotates Behind the Gear?
Image
it's so damn Minor, but now i can never make it Unseen xD
Not necessarily, though. The crank doesn't need a shaft going through it
Image

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Zeblote » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:09 pm

Drury wrote:
Proxy wrote:speaking of Art.
someone ever Noticed that this Little Arm coming from the Left is technically phasing Through the Shaft because it Rotates Behind the Gear?
Image
it's so damn Minor, but now i can never make it Unseen xD
Not necessarily, though. The crank doesn't need a shaft going through it
That was already discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=12590&hilit=steam+ ... 100#p85030

Yes, it is wrong :D

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by aubergine18 » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:27 pm

In relation to consuming stuff for speed boost, lubricant oil would be better suited to that than alien artefacts.

Related discussion: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=35314
Better forum search for modders: Enclose your search term in quotes, eg. "font_color" or "custom-input" - it prevents the forum search from splitting on hypens and underscores, resulting in much more accurate results.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by bobingabout » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:33 pm

Wait... so not only are you multiplying all the fluids by 10 (creating a lot of work for me retuning my mods), but you're also removing alien artifacts? (creating a lot of work for me retuning my mods)

Actually, I think I know what one of my next mods will be. Alien Artifacts mod! Actually, not only would it re-add in the removed alien artifacts, but those added by my enemies mod would likely move over to it too.

To note: one of the main things my mod actually did with artifacts was change up a few things so that they're mostly used in the combat side of things. Also with my science pack 4, it became science pack 5 for a lot of my top tier researchs. So, I would likely need to rework the use case of the raw artifacts too.

With the addition of infinite research... perhaps it would be apropriate to make alien artifacts a component in this infinite progression?


Man, 0.15 is going to break so much of my mods :cry:
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by rolfl » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:21 am

bobingabout wrote:Man, 0.15 is going to break so much of my mods :cry:
Life at the bleeding edge. Called that for a reason.

I believe your'e not alone in your concerns for the impact on modders... hell, your mods are awesome, and prolific, and so many other things to boot. And, you've carefully not actually complained (too much) about these changes.

I have 400 or so hours of game-time in factorio, and that's not huge, but my assessment is that the mod-builders are going to be the most negatively affected users. BUt - the issue is more about work (support/maintenance) for fixing things for the modding community, not about the actual game-play.

I would like to see the game-play more streamlined, and sensible - and I think alien artifacts make the gameplay less streamlined, and don't make enough sense.

I would also like to see a system that allows the non-vanilla gamers (the world of mods, scenarios, etc.) to be given the tools they needs to do the more exotic, experimental, and risky things that you do.

I can see the short-term hump for mods, but long-term, I see the benefits of a combined game that's moddable, but in vanilla, it's sensible too.

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