Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

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Sacredd
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Sacredd » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:29 pm

and i want to make a necromancer mod, because loot is fun. ofc only artifacts is boring...

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Zeno » Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:05 pm

Here's one possibility i haven't seen mention of:
Multiplayer mode exclusive item

Multiple teams of players, attempting to launch rockets which are filled with a total of alien artifacts. The rocket silo can either automatically create a new rocket instantly once the old one is launched, or generate a new rocket over a setting determined time, or need the rocket built normally. (easiest to hardest) The teams of players could then be given an alien artifact shipment goal number of up to 10,000 artifacts. The rocket only holds one stack at a time, so players could raid another teams base to try and steal them.
It doesn't need to be always PvP either, it could also be cooperative: PvP damage is disabled and everyone is on "team human" with 1 rocket silo, but seperated into 'squads' where artifacts that are picked up by players get changed from "alien pink" to their squad color. The squad that launches the greatest number of artifacts wins, and the rocket could accept multiple squads' artifacts at once.
Launching a rocket isn't necessary either. It could be as simple as placing the artifacts into a set of pre-placed unique storage boxes, which is the only place where artifacts are counted towards team score. (with the storage boxes obviously being stuck in place so they can't be moved)
"Artifact Capture" mode could also be given a time limit to prevent indefinite play, or stalemates. (obviously, alien regeneration of bases would have to be very high but constrained to a space outside the spawn areas, to give room for factory growth)

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by lancar » Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:03 pm

No more artifacts? I'm cool with this, but I feel the aliens should have some use or reason for being other than being a nuisance.
Maybe we can harvest their remains and burn it in a furnace to make power? Or cook their still warm corpses in a vat to make oil?

We always need more oil.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by RichyNZ » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:18 am

Using artifacts as a form of high-yield universal fuel would keep them being valuable yet not essential, while alleviating the oil shortage slightly. Then the ratio of drops/nests can just be tweaked to keep it all balanced.
I have to say I way prefer still using boilers and steam engines for power instead of fields of solar, simply because it's a lot more fun. And I like belts. Efficient fuel that maybe gave a performance increase as well as simply lasting longer would make me happy, as solid fuel in quantity is quite a drain....

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Grimakar » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:38 am

lancar wrote:No more artifacts? I'm cool with this, but I feel the aliens should have some use or reason for being other than being a nuisance.
Maybe we can harvest their remains and burn it in a furnace to make power? Or cook their still warm corpses in a vat to make oil?

We always need more oil.
Just automate their extinction and burn them for steam engines or trains.
Maybe we could catch them and make farms.

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Andrzejef
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Andrzejef » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:49 am

Wait what? Biter fueled trains?
You, I like you :)

We'd only need something akin Necron Spyders for harvesting and processing purposes :)
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by rolfl » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:18 am

Andrzejef wrote:Wait what? Biter fueled trains?
You, I like you :)

We'd only need something akin Necron Spyders for harvesting and processing purposes :)
There is that legend that mummies in the Egyption desert used to get exposed after wind-storms, and that the railway folk used to collect them and use the mummies as fuel in their steam engine.... let me see if I can find any reference to those stories - fact, or fiction... Hmmm.... even a wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy_pap ... or_mummies

Using alien grave-artifacts are quite a reasonable use in the railways!

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by mattj256 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:09 pm

AtomicStryker wrote:Great change! It always seemed strange that genocide was mandatory in order to progress and finish the game, that machines would literally run on dead biter babies
I agree that killing biters shouldn't be a primary goal. (It doesn't bother me if alien artifacts have some optional benefit, nor does it bother me if you have to kill biters to expand your base.)

What would happen if there was a real peaceful mode? Not just "the biters don't get in my way" but "the biters and I work together to accomplish shared goals"? As the game currently stands it reminds me of some uncomfortable aspects of American history, particularly the Trail of Tears. The biters are the natives. The player is the explorer. Gameplay not only requires that we push the biters off their land, but makes this a habit and desensitizes us to it.

Imagine an alternate history where the European explorers who colonized America were prepared to live in peace with the natives. What would that look like? Factorio already has a story about pushing biters off their land and antagonizing them with pollution. And it also has a story where the biters don't exist at all. I don't see any reason why Factorio can't tell this third story as well. Maybe aliens and their nests always absorb pollution but it doesn't bother biters unless the pollution passes a certain threshold. Maybe trees grow back, or there's a way to plant trees or make buildings that reduce pollution. Maybe if you're on good terms with the biters they will clear land for you or move their bases out of the way. Maybe the presence of pollution reduces the effectiveness of factories or the amount of resources available to be extracted. I don't think I'm saying anything here that hasn't already been said. I know some of these things are already possible with mods, and I'd like to see them in vanilla.

Games tell stories, and a popular game has the opportunity to tell a story that influences many people. Which story do we want to be telling?

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Andrzejef
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Andrzejef » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

rolfl wrote:
Andrzejef wrote:Wait what? Biter fueled trains?
You, I like you :)

We'd only need something akin Necron Spyders for harvesting and processing purposes :)
There is that legend that mummies in the Egyption desert used to get exposed after wind-storms, and that the railway folk used to collect them and use the mummies as fuel in their steam engine.... let me see if I can find any reference to those stories - fact, or fiction... Hmmm.... even a wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy_pap ... or_mummies

Using alien grave-artifacts are quite a reasonable use in the railways!
Now that's evil. Can't wait to see it in practice :twisted:
(meaning biter-fuel not mummies - well, maybe biter mummies?)
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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by bripi » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:27 am

Don't like the idea of *eliminating* the uses for alien artifacts...I think you geniuses could come up with another way of *using* them. It sure seems like the "default" is to remove the challenge of having to deal with a hostile alien species, and where is the fun in that?? You can't just remove the alien species from the game without totally pussifying it.

On another note, one which is targeted directly at the forum title, I find the first shot of Marco's to be quite depressing and dark. Too much smog...and if you're going to eliminate the aliens, what is the point of including pollution at all? Who cares how much pollution there is when there's only one non-plant life on the planet?

I kind of wish you'd think of how to make the fish useful, like setting up a fishing industry of some kind, instead of spending energy making the research packs more difficult. I don't see any improvement in the Stage 3 science pack being less cumbersome - engines and red circuits take a lot of resources and time to build! And the 4th level of "production" science packs...OUTRAGEOUSLY difficult! If you're going to make them that hard to build, at least cut down on how many are needed for the research.

My two cents.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by electricmonk2k » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:43 pm

I sort of have mixed feelings about the Alien artefacts. On the one side, removing them would enable the player to play in a purely pacifist manner (if the natives are set to only defend their hives), but on the other hand, it removes a certain gameplay element and all the potential it has for further development.

If peace with aliens is implemented, alien artefacts could alternatively be acquired by trade. In fact, a small number of stray alien artefacts could be found scattered around the map, and this will enable alien science to be used in some early-game techs that involve the aliens (such as alien communication). This means that the purple science packs won't be a further progression from blue science packs, but something that can be added to certain recipies throughout the tech tree.

Alien science could end up only being used for stuff related to the natives or for researching stuff suited to the local environment (eg. weapons specifically designed to be used against the natives' weaknesses, more efficient solar panels (efficient because they take the spectrum of sunlight reaching the planet's surface into account), better miners / harvesters etc. , and building the rocket may require some research into the atmosphere so we know how to get off the planet).

One thing that has been said about the gathering of alien artefacts is that it can become quite tedious in the late game. To solve this, there could be robots that automatically seek out native hives, extinguish them, and return their artefacts. This tech would only be available very late in the game (but when you still need plenty of artefacts) (the timing would have to be just right so that they become available at the precise moment it becomes tedious to hunt down hives manually). The hives would have to be within range of a 'repair-station', but this range could be very far. Alternatively, if peace with aliens is implemented, you could set up an "Alien Marketplace" and trade "Trading goods" for the artefacts, and use belts/trains to transport the artefacts back to your base.

Some people have suggested creating biter-farms where biters are held in captivity and their artefacts are harvested. If this does happen, then occasionally, some of the biters might break out if the confinement isn't strong enough, or wild biters may find them and break down the defences and unleash all captured biters, causing utter chaos in the process.

Also, others have mentioned that the focus of the game should be about building factories and have even suggested removing the biters entirely. This should be an option for the map-generator and scenario-designers.

aubergine18 wrote:from 0.9 --> 1.0 they accept defeat and start fleeing from player.
But then, turrets and defensive walls would become useless (unless fleeing biters find the factory and start chewing it while you're away).

Matthias_Wlkp wrote: - "Spawners" roots in the ground around a base, that you could extract with a mining drill

This could potentially be another use for you stash of burner mining-drills in the late game (assuming they cannot be recycled) if you don't want to run electricity-pylons to the newly-vanquished hive or build a remote solar farm there.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Anson » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:18 am

electricmonk2k wrote:Some people have suggested creating biter-farms where biters are held in captivity and their artefacts are harvested. If this does happen, then occasionally, some of the biters might break out if the confinement isn't strong enough, or wild biters may find them and break down the defences and unleash all captured biters, causing utter chaos in the process.
two of my favorite games in one, if you add PA to this game :-)
electricmonk2k wrote:removing the biters entirely.
This should be an option for the map-generator and scenario-designers.
isn't there an option already "enemy bases - size: NONE" ?

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Sean Mirrsen » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:37 pm

Back when I was thinking of a "Factorio Gaiden" mod, the artifacts actually served an important function.

I mean, think about it. There is a grand total of one thing you are ever developing weapons for in this game. Fighting the biters.
The "alien artifacts" you pick up are basically just examples of Biter biology, not their tech - they don't have any. And studying the biology of the aliens you're facing is a great way to learn how to kill them faster.
So in my idea, the artifacts would have been used in research packs focusing on increasing the damage dealt by your weapons to the biters.

It'd work pretty well with infinite research, just continuously increasing the damage you deal to them. At the same time, the biters would need to scale up appropriately - so that as you go further and further they become harder and harder to kill, the nests especially, so that expanding outward is a challenge that you need the artifacts to sustain. Towards the late game, right now, the biters become an annoyance at worst. They really need to be able to threaten the player, if sufficiently provoked. There would still be the peaceful mode for anyone not wanting to tangle with the aliens, and since the artifacts' primary use would be weapons development they would not really need them.

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Re: Friday Facts #162 - Theme Art Again

Post by Sacredd » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:32 pm

Sacredd wrote:and i want to make a necromancer mod, because loot is fun. ofc only artifacts is boring...
DONE: https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Sacredd/necromant

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