Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

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torham
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by torham » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:50 am

Have you guys thought up how to start the game at the beginning? Even just a small flavor sequence would go a long way, for example landing in an escape pod. At the moment we just magically appear in the middle of nothing, with no foreshadowing of what actually happened. A really cool intro would be arriving in the same rocket we launch at the end, thus closing the loop...

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by ssilk » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:45 pm

Klonan wrote:I don't see how any of this is simpler than any of the current solutions many mods use:
Well, I think if Factorio would be enabled to handle events more clever and trigger only events, if they are really needed, that would rise the speed of a mod. Especially if you have several mods, that needs to check things every tick.

But, well, perhaps I'm totally wrong. :)
The problem for me as a lateral-entrant to lua is, that I have some ideas of how to increase performance, but that knowledge is based on other programming languages. E.g. event-handling in java-script can be quite slow, if made wrong, for example you catch mouse-events instead of hover-events.

So I think for Factorio it's the same: The more events lua needs NOT to handle (even if just checking, if anything needs to be done yet), the better. :)
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Supercheese » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:57 pm

torham wrote:Have you guys thought up how to start the game at the beginning? Even just a small flavor sequence would go a long way, for example landing in an escape pod. At the moment we just magically appear in the middle of nothing, with no foreshadowing of what actually happened. A really cool intro would be arriving in the same rocket we launch at the end, thus closing the loop...
If you play the tutorial campaign, it shows Factoriodude having crash-landed in a spaceship.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by BHakluyt » Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:03 pm

torham wrote:Have you guys thought up how to start the game at the beginning? Even just a small flavor sequence would go a long way, for example landing in an escape pod. At the moment we just magically appear in the middle of nothing, with no foreshadowing of what actually happened. A really cool intro would be arriving in the same rocket we launch at the end, thus closing the loop...
I agree. Just a 30 second animation showing a dramatic ship crashing through the atmosphere. Having hordes of biter nests on the horizon will add a sense of ominous danger.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Andrzejef » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:03 pm

Agreed, even bare splash text " how the hell I got here?" would do :)
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by mdqp » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:56 pm

Mehve wrote:That's a perfectly valid playstyle, but this game's underlying goal is one of production. And that production needs to go somewhere, or you just turn into an industrial hoarder. Furthermore, unless you're running on extremely lean resource settings, base expansion and defense setups will virtually always give you access to more resources than they cost. Sooner or later, you need something to produce, whether it's research or rockets or something else entirely.
Well, I guess what I am trying to say is that it has zero appeal to me, because it sounds busy work for the sake of it. Sure, I might often try to do things in an awkward way just to see if I can, but a resource sink of this type doesn't really have an inherent challenge, unless your goal becomes "reach research x in y amount of time", it doesn't give you extra logistic challenges, other than increase production (since the research production will be already "solved" by the time you hit the infinite research upgrades, it's just a matter of keeping the already exisisting research going, and/or expanding it).

I think it would be more interesting if we had different kind of resource sinks, perhaps ones that can be used for a more tangible benefit, possibly under the player's use (really stupid example, maybe the possibility to launch special rockets loaded with limited use weapons, which can be used to strike from orbit certain areas of the map).

To put this another way, I find producing research to satisfy endless marginal increases in power/efficiency/whatever even less interesting than just producing unnecessary items, simply because the overproduction could always come in handy should I start a project for a separate/new/bigger factory, while the marginal increases won't give me creative or logistic challenges, nor be a way to meet these challenges in an interesting way.

But again, it's just something I'll personally ignore, if someone finds enjoyment in it, perhaps from an angle I am not considering, all the better. :mrgreen:

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by rolfl » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:57 am

mdqp wrote: I think it would be more interesting if we had different kind of resource sinks, perhaps ones that can be used for a more tangible benefit, possibly under the player's use....

... I find producing research to satisfy endless marginal increases in power/efficiency/whatever even less interesting than just producing unnecessary items, simply because the overproduction could always come in handy should I start a project for a separate/new/bigger factory, while the marginal increases won't give me creative or logistic challenges, nor be a way to meet these challenges in an interesting way.

I would love to have extended marginal capacity for logistic/construction robot speed, and logistics capacity. Additionally, I would love increased logistics slots, and even increased armour-bonus slots for inventory.

More effective shields, faster walkers, bigger equipment grids (MKIII armour?) Personal robo-ports with more robot slots, bigger area, more efficient recharge.

The limits I run in to in large factories are:
- not enough logistics slots to maintian an inventory
- not enough inventory slots to hold all the things I want/need
- logistics robot system is too slow over a large area - faster robots with more capacity
- personal roboport range is not enough for large blueprints
- follower robot count at 134 is "not enough"
- bullet damage/speed is not enough for turret defense against behemoth biters
- turret range is too short (laser-turret is better, but I would like to research an increased gun-turret range).
- cluster-grenade shooting-speed ?

All the above could be given "infinite" research, and I would happily sink a large factory's output for those.

You say: "perhaps ones that can be used for a more tangible benefit" - I consider things like the above to be very tangible.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by bobingabout » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:30 am

I am SO going to make a bag space upgrade infinite research!
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by mrvn » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:56 am

aober93 wrote:Yea i like the blueprint library. But why have 3 different places for them? Global / Local Game / Inventory.
What actually would be intuitive was a single library, but instead multiple (self defined) categories.

I like to put my blueprints into categories like train only, mining only etcetc. And the only bad about this design is that i have to categorize via books and you have weigh the space limit of the books vs space limit of your inventory. It just doesnt feel right in your inventory. While you progress and gain more books you hurt yourself with less available space. So yea for a change.

But from what i understand, with 0.15 you gain a new library outside of your inventory, and if you want to use it you need to create an actual blueprint and put it in a blueprint book thereby creating another library.

Instead i would like a single library, something like the train browser even maybe. Global (across saves) available blueprints should have a tag, and not stored in a different library where the libraries may become redundant. And then be able to browse via category or search by name something like that. But preserve that you can scroll thru a single book via mousewheel. Thats all.
I think having to create the blueprint locally is important. Otherwise you would just have all the blueprints from the library instantly at no cost. Towards this does putting a blueprint into the library cost you the blueprint? Or does the library mean you have infinite blueprints because you can always clear your local blueprint and copy a new one from the library over and over?

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by mrvn » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:05 pm

starholme wrote:I wonder if they bother to balance each bucket? So you don't end up with 300 chunks to process one tick, 3 the next.
You mean when you build your base along a diagonal (/) the (x + y) % 60 would end up all in the same bucket and none in the rest?

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by mrvn » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:13 pm

torham wrote:Have you guys thought up how to start the game at the beginning? Even just a small flavor sequence would go a long way, for example landing in an escape pod. At the moment we just magically appear in the middle of nothing, with no foreshadowing of what actually happened. A really cool intro would be arriving in the same rocket we launch at the end, thus closing the loop...
In the tutorial you have a crashed space ship. Why isn't that in every game? And instead of the player starting with a burner miner, furnace and some iron plates they could be slavaged from the crashed soace ship too. It's a trivial thing but would explain where you've got it from.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by mrvn » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:15 pm

BHakluyt wrote:
torham wrote:Have you guys thought up how to start the game at the beginning? Even just a small flavor sequence would go a long way, for example landing in an escape pod. At the moment we just magically appear in the middle of nothing, with no foreshadowing of what actually happened. A really cool intro would be arriving in the same rocket we launch at the end, thus closing the loop...
I agree. Just a 30 second animation showing a dramatic ship crashing through the atmosphere. Having hordes of biter nests on the horizon will add a sense of ominous danger.
The crash landing could wipe out the aliens near the crash, exlaining

1) why there are no aliens around the starting point.
2) why they hate us so much.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by aubergine18 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:05 pm

Pretty sure they hate us because we come to their planet and start destroying it.

Same happens here on Earth: west plunders/bombs middle east, then wonders why they hate us. I'm not sure it needs explaining any more, it's pretty obvious (and has nothing to do with our freedoms).
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by torham » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:12 pm

mrvn wrote:
torham wrote:Have you guys thought up how to start the game at the beginning? Even just a small flavor sequence would go a long way, for example landing in an escape pod. At the moment we just magically appear in the middle of nothing, with no foreshadowing of what actually happened. A really cool intro would be arriving in the same rocket we launch at the end, thus closing the loop...
In the tutorial you have a crashed space ship. Why isn't that in every game? And instead of the player starting with a burner miner, furnace and some iron plates they could be slavaged from the crashed soace ship too. It's a trivial thing but would explain where you've got it from.
Even this would be perfectly acceptable. I am sure the devs have got something planned, judging by the amount of polish and dedication they invest in every other aspect of the game, I just wanted to mention it in advance, so that they have plenty of time to make something cool... ;)

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by PacifyerGrey » Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:52 am

I would like to state that it would be EXTREMELY beneficial for the blueprint library to have a functionality of Blueprint String mod as this would allow to exchange blueprints on forums and other communities like Reddit. While exchanging inside multiplayer game is kinda useful it is not what builds communities. I do understand that it might have some compatibility issues between game versions and/or mods but you can make it a less compact string to include more details to prevent this.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Rseding91 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:15 am

PacifyerGrey wrote:I would like to state that it would be EXTREMELY beneficial for the blueprint library to have a functionality of Blueprint String mod as this would allow to exchange blueprints on forums and other communities like Reddit. While exchanging inside multiplayer game is kinda useful it is not what builds communities. I do understand that it might have some compatibility issues between game versions and/or mods but you can make it a less compact string to include more details to prevent this.
That's currently not planned.
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by MrGrim » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:50 pm

mdqp wrote:Well, I guess what I am trying to say is that it has zero appeal to me, because it sounds busy work for the sake of it. Sure, I might often try to do things in an awkward way just to see if I can, but a resource sink of this type doesn't really have an inherent challenge, unless your goal becomes "reach research x in y amount of time", it doesn't give you extra logistic challenges, other than increase production (since the research production will be already "solved" by the time you hit the infinite research upgrades, it's just a matter of keeping the already exisisting research going, and/or expanding it).

I think it would be more interesting if we had different kind of resource sinks, perhaps ones that can be used for a more tangible benefit, possibly under the player's use (really stupid example, maybe the possibility to launch special rockets loaded with limited use weapons, which can be used to strike from orbit certain areas of the map).

To put this another way, I find producing research to satisfy endless marginal increases in power/efficiency/whatever even less interesting than just producing unnecessary items, simply because the overproduction could always come in handy should I start a project for a separate/new/bigger factory, while the marginal increases won't give me creative or logistic challenges, nor be a way to meet these challenges in an interesting way.

But again, it's just something I'll personally ignore, if someone finds enjoyment in it, perhaps from an angle I am not considering, all the better. :mrgreen:
I think you're indeed missing the point. Infinite research I think is first and foremost a resource sink. I even would have been happy if it provided no benefits like Civ's "future technology" tech. That it provides benefits is just icing.

The point isn't to provide additional challenges, it's to be a resource sink; to give your factory something to do. I actually stopped just short of all research in my current factory because I want to eventually, once I get everything else ready to go, fire up all of the things so I can see my factory at full capacity. If I complete all research before I finish building my rocket chain, for example, then I can never activate both parts of the factory at once.

Once you get to a point where you have tens of thousands of tier 3 modules just sitting in chests and all research is complete about all you can reasonably do at that point is launch rockets. Resource sinks help to give late game factories something to do so they don't just sit idle.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Beewee » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:54 pm

When it comes to resource sinks, is the rocket not a large one? I've not yet managed to construct one, so I don't know exactly how demanding it is, or do people just want to give their labs something to do as well?

On the topic of potential research, perhaps add a boost to radar range, it would both be useful to the player and not have any kind of OP effects in-game. Maybe even make it an early to mid-game research (green science?) and allow the player to continue boosting it as the game progresses. Imo research that improves production or energy output should not be made infinitely upgradeable, as this could get quite rediculous given enough time.

Anyways, that's my two cents on the situation, I trust the devs will come up with something exciting and fitting in due time.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by rolfl » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:12 pm

Beewee wrote:When it comes to resource sinks, is the rocket not a large one? I've not yet managed to construct one, so I don't know exactly how demanding it is, or do people just want to give their labs something to do as well?
The rocket is demanding, true. It's a good sink for a number of resources.

What the rocket needs, is a circuit-connection that can allow auto-launch when the satallite is installed ;-)

Dev's: is there a plan to include circuit-network-triggered-launch?

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by MrGrim » Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:17 pm

Beewee wrote:When it comes to resource sinks, is the rocket not a large one? I've not yet managed to construct one, so I don't know exactly how demanding it is, or do people just want to give their labs something to do as well?

On the topic of potential research, perhaps add a boost to radar range, it would both be useful to the player and not have any kind of OP effects in-game. Maybe even make it an early to mid-game research (green science?) and allow the player to continue boosting it as the game progresses. Imo research that improves production or energy output should not be made infinitely upgradeable, as this could get quite rediculous given enough time.

Anyways, that's my two cents on the situation, I trust the devs will come up with something exciting and fitting in due time.
It is, indeed. I just like the idea of multiple complex chains going achieving different ends. IMO a factory producing modules, firing rockets, and performing research all at once is more interesting than a factory only launching rockets. :)

Also, agreed on the need for radar upgrades.

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