Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

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AndrolGenhald
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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by AndrolGenhald » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:11 am

I've never used it, but there's a mod that does logistic rails if you want to try it out: viewtopic.php?f=93&t=21462
I think I'll stick with the chests though, I like that they can fill up before the train reaches the station.

I feel like there's a difference though between having a system that could have a logical explanation, but one simply isn't provided, and a system that violates one of the most basic laws of physics. I can suspend my disbelief about the belts, maybe they all have tiny solar panels and accumulators built in, maybe they're geo-thermally powered somehow, maybe in a future update we'll actually have to power them ourselves. But generating electricity by using electricity simply makes no sense (and don't just point me to water electrolysis, that's generating electricity from hydrogen).

Edit: Just realized that mod hasn't been updated to 0.13 due to the huge train changes :(

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by mrvn » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:12 pm

Llama wrote: Some improvements I've pondered include:

More rewarding biter base clearing - have some items that the biters have hoarded which the player may enjoy liberating. If you're not happy about primative aliens hoarding items, maybe spin it so you weren't the sole survivor of the ship crash - at first - other escape pods bailed from the ship and parachuted down, your buddies tried to set up their own camps but were overrun by biters.
Aliens (biters, not spitters?) could not just destroy stuff but steal and horde stuff. So when they attack an assembler instead of it blowing up the alien picks it up in the end and carries it off to its nest, maybe 50% of the time or so. Destroying the alien on the way back would drop the item, otherwise it has to be liberated from the nest.

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by mrvn » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:21 pm

komrade_toast wrote: [*]Belt Building Mechanics:
Not sure what is meant by "building by dragging makes continuous belt". It already does this to my knowledge. Or is it meant that if you drag to a tile next to the belt you just placed, the previous belt will automatically link to it? Either way, please add a "Belt Brush" mechanic. Where an arbitrary number of belts can be dragged out next to eachother. Building a 4-Belt bus can get tedious with the current mechanics.

[*]MK2 version of boiler and steam engine:
100% support. Mk2 of both of these is needed. Maybe make the Mk2 boiler powered by electric, so you would be required to have a few Mk1 boilers and engines to provide power to your Mk2 boilers. The Mk2 Steam engine should provide as much power as 10 Mk1 Steam engines, while the Mk2 boilers should provide enough heat to keep the ratios in-check. Right now it is 14:10 Boilers to engines, it should be the same for Mk2. This would provide easier math if you wanted to mix Mk1 and Mk2.[/list]
Dragging actually doesn't drag but places a new belt every time the event loop registers the mouse button still being pressed. If your system is slow (your base is big :) and/or you are running fast then you can skip a tile between those and get holes in your belts. Maybe it's intended to place belts on all tiles you dragged over since the last event loop.

As for Mk2 boilers being electric: WTF? You want to use electric boilers to make electricity? Or do you want to use solar cells to produce hot water for night steam?

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:42 pm

Ah yes I notice this behaviour in sandbox mode, hold mouse button and move the screen, there are regular gaps in the belt line.
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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by FalcoGer » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:45 pm

Damaged item merging should probably be an option in the settings, IMO. Some people do like to repair their stuff. Alternatively it could consume the appropriate amount of repair packs over time to repair it in the inventory.
Additional tutorials should also be an option. Playing the game over and over again, having the same old texts appear can be annoying. Especially if there are many of them. Also they should be there and accessible from the start, and just offer the option to show them at the right time.

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by lingnau » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:00 pm

Deadly-Bagel wrote:Ah yes I notice this behaviour in sandbox mode, hold mouse button and move the screen, there are regular gaps in the belt line.
I'm not entirely certain if this is the behavior that he was referring to. This happens because depending on the zoom level you more "too fast" for the placement of belts to keep up.
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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by repler » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:19 pm

I am red/green color blind and I have always found the map difficult to use because of the color choices.
Does the map show the spread of pollution? I've never been able to tell.
Does it show where I can mine rocks?

I see the creeper nests, I see oil patches, I see coal patches, I see iron patches, I see copper patches, and water.

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by Klonan » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:48 pm

repler wrote:I am red/green color blind and I have always found the map difficult to use because of the color choices.
Does the map show the spread of pollution? I've never been able to tell.
Does it show where I can mine rocks?

I see the creeper nests, I see oil patches, I see coal patches, I see iron patches, I see copper patches, and water.
Im red/green color blind too, and i have never had a problem seeing the pollution spread on the map

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by hansinator » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:46 pm

Klonan wrote:
repler wrote:I am red/green color blind and I have always found the map difficult to use because of the color choices.
Does the map show the spread of pollution? I've never been able to tell.
Does it show where I can mine rocks?

I see the creeper nests, I see oil patches, I see coal patches, I see iron patches, I see copper patches, and water.
Im red/green color blind too, and i have never had a problem seeing the pollution spread on the map
Maybe you didn't mean it that way but when I read your answer it sounds very ignorant. There are different types of color-blindness with varying degrees of color intensity perception. repler may have a more severe form than you have.

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by Klonan » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:09 pm

hansinator wrote:
Klonan wrote:
repler wrote:I am red/green color blind and I have always found the map difficult to use because of the color choices.
Does the map show the spread of pollution? I've never been able to tell.
Does it show where I can mine rocks?

I see the creeper nests, I see oil patches, I see coal patches, I see iron patches, I see copper patches, and water.
Im red/green color blind too, and i have never had a problem seeing the pollution spread on the map
Maybe you didn't mean it that way but when I read your answer it sounds very ignorant. There are different types of color-blindness with varying degrees of color intensity perception. repler may have a more severe form than you have.
Im just sharing my anecdotal experience with the game...

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by Ranakastrasz » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:16 pm

There is a mod somewhere that makes pollution Grey instead.


Actually I think it was a modification of the base game files...
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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by Sacredd » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:29 pm

Please implement "Pocket Repair". (There was such mod, which is not working for 0.14.x.)
It should be an item, which you can put into modular armor and it automaticly repairs all things in inverntory by using repair kits from inventory. (And consuming armor electricity ofc.) So if a turret is repaired, it goes back to the stack and does not take a single slot in inverntory.

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by Ranakastrasz » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:17 pm

Sacredd wrote:Please implement "Pocket Repair". (There was such mod, which is not working for 0.14.x.)
It should be an item, which you can put into modular armor and it automaticly repairs all things in inverntory by using repair kits from inventory. (And consuming armor electricity ofc.) So if a turret is repaired, it goes back to the stack and does not take a single slot in inverntory.
This, except make it standalone so it doesn't have anything to do with armor. By the time you get armor, you have robots, so don't need the mod. Hence, make it work from the start of the game.

And, make items able to have a custom integer attached so mods like Factorissimo still work.
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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by Antaios » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:13 am

Klonan wrote:
hansinator wrote:
Klonan wrote:
repler wrote:I am red/green color blind and I have always found the map difficult to use because of the color choices.
Does the map show the spread of pollution? I've never been able to tell.
Does it show where I can mine rocks?

I see the creeper nests, I see oil patches, I see coal patches, I see iron patches, I see copper patches, and water.
Im red/green color blind too, and i have never had a problem seeing the pollution spread on the map
Maybe you didn't mean it that way but when I read your answer it sounds very ignorant. There are different types of color-blindness with varying degrees of color intensity perception. repler may have a more severe form than you have.
Im just sharing my anecdotal experience with the game...
I'll just point out the obvious first thing to check, if you can't see the pollution on the map.

- It has to be enabled in options -> graphics. (there are two settings, one for minimap, one for main map)
- You have to have detailed info turned on, by pressing alt.
- You have to be making some reasonable pollution for it to really show on the map.

I'd suggest turning all that on, going into the map over the top of any large mining operation (without efficiency modules), then toggling alt a few times, to see if you can tell any difference between on and off.

Alternatively, here's a gif. cycles between no pollution, pollution on, and the edge of the pollution highlighted (the edge is hard to see even for me).

Image

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by SaberCherry » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:22 am

factoriouzr wrote:
imaytag wrote:
Instead of merging, can there be a way to repair items inside your inventory? I agree it is annoying, but mainly when turret creeping, which was already stated as OP. If we could repair the items inside of the inventory, that'd both fix the merge issues, and not waste items.
This is my preferred solution as well.

Also I would kill for an upgraded rail (rail + copper cable or something) that can carry electricity to my outposts. I'm building power lines along all my rails anyways and I get sick of having to do it :P
I really think we need an auto repair as well, and I love the idea of carrying electricity in the rails.
Rail+electricity would be very nice (I mean, heck, we it already as the third rail in metros with serious mass transit). As would auto-repair. Damaged goods in inventory are a huge annoyance.
floodo1 wrote:
Zaichik wrote:Another thing for gameplay:
The only mod I consider to be vital for my enjoyment of the game is the Long Reach mod. It just smooths out gameplay a ton. You might increase the radius at which you can interact with things in the base game.
I've been playing a lot of vanilla multiplayer and also single player with Long Reach ... to me it feels like the vanilla reach is too short, but being able to zoom out and interact with everything on screen feels like it's a bit much. Therefore, in the vanilla game I would like to see the current radius increased but not set to the maximum (let users download a mod for that) (-8
It's annoying to be unable to manually connect a couple of power poles without walking around, since they get automatically connected if you just place them. I agree that the default reach is a couple tiles too short, but I'm not interested in a mod that makes it infinite, just like I'm not interested in "squeeze through" which allows you to walk through anything, including impassible obstacles like joined pipes; it just feels too cheaty.

komrade_toast wrote: Well, in REAL LIFE a net gain in energy is definitely impossible, given the laws of conservation of energy. BUT, I did say the Mk2 boiler should be electrically powered, requiring the use of mk1 engines and boilers. This is pretty much how the game works now. I have my main power setup - which consists of reactors from GotLag's "Reactors" mod (that powers my whole base), then I have another power station powering my reactors, which is fueled by coal. In real life, net gains in energy are nigh impossible. But in Factorio, Net Energy gains are a small part of the game, otherwise the game would be incredibly tough to the point of un-enjoyability, or it just wouldn't be playable at all. The game already accelerates past the burner stage in to the electric age. Why not make the Mk1 boilers coal powered, and the Mk2 electrically? BTW, I originally wanted a solar boiler, but, what about when the sun goes down? Having solar boilers would be tough. The water temp in the un-heated pipes would drop during the night, AND your solar boilers would not function anymore. Using a regular 10:14 mk1 steam plant to power a 10:14 mk2 steam plant would result in a net energy loss, thus resulting in needing multiple Mk1 steam plants to power your Mk2 steam plant. The result would be a decrease in size needed for the energy generation, but an increase in the amount of resources needed for energy production.

EDIT:
AndrolGenhald wrote:so we're not turning heat into electricity then back into heat
I don't quite get what you mean by this. To my knowledge - Coal is used to heat the water inside the boilers, which is then used to turn the turbines inside of steam generators. Where is heat converted in to electric energy and then back in to heat energy?

EDIT 2:
Nevermind, I just got what you were saying about heat -> electric -> heat. While it may not work this way in real life, it could work in the game. As i said, I power an entire nuclear setup off of coal. All the miners and chemical plants in the nuclear energy production chain are power by coal energy. It would NEVER work like this in real life, but as has been said before: Factorio is not a life simulator.
So - now I get why people don't like electric boilers. Dumb things that detract from Factorio's realism by allowing infinite exponential loops are a terrible idea. The point of electric boilers is simply that they allow you to heat fluids without coal, which is currently a missing mechanism in Factorio. It could be useful for all kinds of things - like decreased viscosity allowing greater pipe throughput, or, indeed, storing hot liquids using daytime solar for nighttime or burst usage in a medium compatible with Factorio's game mechanics, unlike the modern methods of pumping water upstream (which is done in hydro dams) or compressing air (more theoretical), or capacitors/batteries/etc which simply have too low of an energy density to be useful in the real world for grid energy storage. But allowing an exploitative loop where you can magically chain Mk-X boilers together for infinite energy; nobody wants that. Electric boilers (as with all devices) should obviously produce less useful energy than they consume; but they would still be useful in that capacity.

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by ratchetfreak » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:07 am

SaberCherry wrote:
AndrolGenhald wrote:so we're not turning heat into electricity then back into heat
I don't quite get what you mean by this. To my knowledge - Coal is used to heat the water inside the boilers, which is then used to turn the turbines inside of steam generators. Where is heat converted in to electric energy and then back in to heat energy?

EDIT 2:
Nevermind, I just got what you were saying about heat -> electric -> heat. While it may not work this way in real life, it could work in the game. As i said, I power an entire nuclear setup off of coal. All the miners and chemical plants in the nuclear energy production chain are power by coal energy. It would NEVER work like this in real life, but as has been said before: Factorio is not a life simulator.
So - now I get why people don't like electric boilers. Dumb things that detract from Factorio's realism by allowing infinite exponential loops are a terrible idea. The point of electric boilers is simply that they allow you to heat fluids without coal, which is currently a missing mechanism in Factorio. It could be useful for all kinds of things - like decreased viscosity allowing greater pipe throughput, or, indeed, storing hot liquids using daytime solar for nighttime or burst usage in a medium compatible with Factorio's game mechanics, unlike the modern methods of pumping water upstream (which is done in hydro dams) or compressing air (more theoretical), or capacitors/batteries/etc which simply have too low of an energy density to be useful in the real world for grid energy storage. But allowing an exploitative loop where you can magically chain Mk-X boilers together for infinite energy; nobody wants that. Electric boilers (as with all devices) should obviously produce less useful energy than they consume; but they would still be useful in that capacity.[/quote]

but those heat-based fluid mechanics first have to be implemented before electric boilers make enough sense to be added. The ONLY use for hot liquid at the moment is steam engines to make electricity so using that electricity to make hot liquid is dumb.

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by Koub » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:41 am

ratchetfreak wrote:but those heat-based fluid mechanics first have to be implemented before electric boilers make enough sense to be added. The ONLY use for hot liquid at the moment is steam engines to make electricity so using that electricity to make hot liquid is dumb.
Except it's not, because you can use solar power to heat that water during day, and use the hot water during night to get some clean energy (an alternative to accumulators). So it's TERRIBLY revelent, even if there is a significant energy loss at each step. Because illimited free renewable always > fossile non renewable at some point.
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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by ketil » Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:12 am

Klonan wrote:
hansinator wrote:
Klonan wrote:
repler wrote:I am red/green color blind and I have always found the map difficult to use because of the color choices.
Does the map show the spread of pollution? I've never been able to tell.
Does it show where I can mine rocks?

I see the creeper nests, I see oil patches, I see coal patches, I see iron patches, I see copper patches, and water.
Im red/green color blind too, and i have never had a problem seeing the pollution spread on the map
Maybe you didn't mean it that way but when I read your answer it sounds very ignorant. There are different types of color-blindness with varying degrees of color intensity perception. repler may have a more severe form than you have.
Im just sharing my anecdotal experience with the game...
I have been struggling with that myself, so I modify factorio/data/core/graphics/pollution-visualization.png to make it easier to see. I am lazy and just replace the border pixels with black.

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by Andrzejef » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:00 pm

ketil wrote: I have been struggling with that myself, so I modify factorio/data/core/graphics/pollution-visualization.png to make it easier to see. I am lazy and just replace the border pixels with black.
Hey, if it's stupid, but working, it's not stupid at all. And this is actually ingenious in its simplicity :)
Image

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Re: Friday Facts #160 - Playtesting

Post by kovarex » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:20 pm

Andrzejef wrote:
ketil wrote: I have been struggling with that myself, so I modify factorio/data/core/graphics/pollution-visualization.png to make it easier to see. I am lazy and just replace the border pixels with black.
Hey, if it's stupid, but working, it's not stupid at all. And this is actually ingenious in its simplicity :)
This will be properly moddable in 0.15

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