Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

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Zabanov
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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by Zabanov » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:37 pm

I cannot wait for 0.15, BTW is there any more info on Nuclear power? I saw it mentioned on steam in an update a while ago. Or is it still in an early concept phase?

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by Andrzejef » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:13 pm

Well, hard to answer that with anything other than "they are working on it". If it's any good indicator, nuclear power appeared in plans for 0.14, just as it apprears in 0.15 + 0.16 roadmap planned features (this time alongside some 8-10 legs surprise in possible appearance - for which I am kinda pumped). So, not before 0.15 I am afraid.
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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by Alecay » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:26 pm

You should add the ability to queue up research, this would allow for the player to pick a tech to research that they do not have the prerequisites for, and then all of the prerequisites for that tech and that chosen tech would be researched without prompting the player to choose another tech, until they were completed. Similar to the way that the research queue works in Civ 5.

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by daniel34 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:32 pm

Alecay wrote:You should add the ability to queue up research, this would allow for the player to pick a tech to research that they do not have the prerequisites for, and then all of the prerequisites for that tech and that chosen tech would be researched without prompting the player to choose another tech, until they were completed. Similar to the way that the research queue works in Civ 5.
From the Factorio Roadmap for 0.15 + 0.16
MrDoomah wrote:Quick question: Is there a research queue planned to be inplemented? I ask this because I was planning to update my research queue mod, but when snooping through the files I stumbeled upon this localisation:

Code: Select all

enqueue-research=Enqueue
start-research-tooltip=Start researching this technology.
enqueue-research-tooltip=Schedule this technology to be researched. Its prerequisites will be researched first.
I know queueing isn't listed in the roadmap, but this makes me curious.
kovarex wrote:Yes, it is implemented, we just disabled it as we had to fix the gui representation of it. It will probably be done in 0.15

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by ExcessionOz » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:05 am

Research, no Alien bits required for Purple, yay.

PvP? I'm really against PvP multiplayer, because inevitably, I think people are cheating. It doesn't matter if they are or not (and yes, I know intimately how FPS games have cheats, because I've used them to see how they worked), and eventually gave up FPS multiplayer because it was pointless -- people cheat, and great players outclass you greatly.

This isn't to say 'don't do PvP', rather, I'd ask that the developers don't -concentrate- on PvP development and make it some form of defacto requirement. World of Warcraft PvP is a good way of doing things, with PvP servers specifically for people who like that competitive dynamic. Minecraft has PvP servers, and thankfully Minecraft isn't mainly PvP oriented, because that would be horrible for those of us who like Player Vs Environment.

tl;dr version: please don't make PvP unavoidable, because some people dislike that dynamic, a lot.

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by Sente » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:45 am

I would like to make a suggestion to some of the research technologies. "Empty" technologies such as Advanced Electronics 2, Modules, Flammables, and Laser are not very fun technologies to research. The only reason they exist is to eat up resources as a gateway to successive technologies. You do not get any new toys to play with or upgrades to existing tools. I think it would be better if these technologies gave some type of unlock or the cost to research these technologies were distributed in some form to the successive technologies instead. Then, the player would feel that they are actually making progress when they research each technology because they get a new tool or an upgrade instead of nothing.

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by Drury » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:07 am

ExcessionOz wrote:Research, no Alien bits required for Purple, yay.

PvP? I'm really against PvP multiplayer, because inevitably, I think people are cheating. It doesn't matter if they are or not (and yes, I know intimately how FPS games have cheats, because I've used them to see how they worked), and eventually gave up FPS multiplayer because it was pointless -- people cheat, and great players outclass you greatly.

This isn't to say 'don't do PvP', rather, I'd ask that the developers don't -concentrate- on PvP development and make it some form of defacto requirement. World of Warcraft PvP is a good way of doing things, with PvP servers specifically for people who like that competitive dynamic. Minecraft has PvP servers, and thankfully Minecraft isn't mainly PvP oriented, because that would be horrible for those of us who like Player Vs Environment.

tl;dr version: please don't make PvP unavoidable, because some people dislike that dynamic, a lot.
I don't think they actually plan on shoehorning people into PvP without any way to play sandbox MP as it is right now. That would be some Team Fortress 2 developer-grade thinking.

What I fear though is that they won't give PvP enough attention and leave it half-assed like the rest of the combat in the game.

EDIT: Honestly, if you don't know what do to with it contract a game designer with RTS experience. It can't stay as it is, it needs an overhaul.
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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by AndaleTheGreat » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:11 am

Andrzejef wrote:However - only nitpicking - I'd say that gun turret research should rather be done using wall and smg, rather than pistol and ammo. ;)
Was literally falling asleep on my keyboard at this point and just throwing ideas at the wall from memory. Like I said, I'd be willing to come up with a lot more detailed/balanced version but I don't know if anyone will care. Still might, got my hours cut next week or so.

I also think the multiple lanes of research would be really helpful.

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by AndaleTheGreat » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:25 am

I'm seeing a lot of comments about the combat. I would like to see something added in that area, but I'm not sure what you could do beyond balance. This isn't really a combat oriented game. It is a factory sim with defense requirements.

The flamethrower is OP as hell if you combine it with a second tier power armor and two shields with the reactor powering it all. That is, however, fairly late-game stuff and should be OP. The only thing I could see is creating more and larger creatures that exist after you create certain items despite the pollution levels. At least then there would still be reason to be concerned.

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by AndaleTheGreat » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:26 am

Alecay wrote:You should add the ability to queue up research, this would allow for the player to pick a tech to research that they do not have the prerequisites for, and then all of the prerequisites for that tech and that chosen tech would be researched without prompting the player to choose another tech, until they were completed. Similar to the way that the research queue works in Civ 5.

I do wish that, with the current system, I could select something in a branch and it would auto research all of the needs up to that point on its own.

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by AndaleTheGreat » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:52 am

Drury wrote:What I fear though is that they won't give PvP enough attention and leave it half-assed like the rest of the combat in the game.
EDIT: Honestly, if you don't know what do to with it contract a game designer with RTS experience. It can't stay as it is, it needs an overhaul.
Personally I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't happen at all. I don't want/need pvp unless they are planning some kind of tournament event. I might be in the minority on the PVP opinion but I'm into this game for the interest of building stuff. The idea of playing short-term games solely for fighting purposes just holds no interest. If I want that I'll go play an actual RTS or a shooter. I can load up Starcraft or Overwatch for my fighting fix and that is fine. I'm here to try and build efficient production lines.

Actually, my new challenge is building the smallest possible base using the Factorisimo mod (currently up to a full blue product line and everything is inside only two buildings. My mining areas are about 10x more space than my facility.

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:38 am

AndaleTheGreat wrote:The flamethrower is OP as hell if you combine it with a second tier power armor and two shields with the reactor powering it all. That is, however, fairly late-game stuff and should be OP. The only thing I could see is creating more and larger creatures that exist after you create certain items despite the pollution levels. At least then there would still be reason to be concerned.
It's not OP if you think about it. Factorio is not a combat-oriented game, you're not supposed to spend hours dug into trench warfare. You have the technological superiority and should be slaughtering them, they however have numbers and a ludicrous reproduction and expansion rate.

Yes, the combat is simple nearing endgame, but that doesn't make it easy. I think we need unattended means of dealing with biters, something like a cannon that can shoot destroyer capsules long distances which then attack everything in sight.
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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by alan2here » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:29 pm

+1 for long range robot cannot

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by mrvn » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:50 pm

As for improvements for fighting:

Not at the game at the moment but: There are speed modules and efficiency modules and so on. Can one place modules in turrets?

I also noticed that turrets fire only until the alien will be killed. So with lasers taking time to reach the enemy the turrets stop before it's dead. Even with multiple turrets firing on one alien. And unless I'm mistaken damage does not decrease with range. At extreme range turrets could miss sometimes. Or hit the tree that's in the way instead.

Maybe turrets could fire till the alien is actually dead on the ground, wasting amo/energy. And there could be a beacon like watch tower that coordinates turrets in its' range. Could increase range/accuracy of directed turrets and make them concentrate on heavier aliens too.

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by AndaleTheGreat » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:12 pm

mrvn wrote:As for improvements for fighting:

Not at the game at the moment but: There are speed modules and efficiency modules and so on. Can one place modules in turrets?

I also noticed that turrets fire only until the alien will be killed. So with lasers taking time to reach the enemy the turrets stop before it's dead. Even with multiple turrets firing on one alien. And unless I'm mistaken damage does not decrease with range. At extreme range turrets could miss sometimes. Or hit the tree that's in the way instead.

Maybe turrets could fire till the alien is actually dead on the ground, wasting amo/energy. And there could be a beacon like watch tower that coordinates turrets in its' range. Could increase range/accuracy of directed turrets and make them concentrate on heavier aliens too.

As for the speed and efficiency modules that would go against the current method of researching upgrades. I actually quite agree that this could be a better method tho. Using speed modules for... you know... speed, then using efficiency modules for accuracy. The increased damage, in my opinion, should be set only by the ammo used.

I would like to see the bullet turrets be modular. Build the turret base then attach a gun for specific purposes. Long barreled for distance and accuracy but reduced speed... stuff like that. Then you could swap out the turret's gun to put in higher caliber ammo when you can afford to.

As to the second part, not real sure that could be fixed without a hefty rewrite on how the turrets fire. So no opinion there.

I wouldn't mind having priority functions on the turret but that seems like it would be a real ask to make that happen and it would mean that units would have to exist in a table to keep track of them and then any mods would have to use a set format for their enemy lists then.

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by Zabanov » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:37 pm

Andrzejef wrote:Well, hard to answer that with anything other than "they are working on it". If it's any good indicator, nuclear power appeared in plans for 0.14, just as it apprears in 0.15 + 0.16 roadmap planned features (this time alongside some 8-10 legs surprise in possible appearance - for which I am kinda pumped). So, not before 0.15 I am afraid.
They are working on it is good enough for me, I am just really curious about the mechanics of nuclear power, things like meltdowns radiation, the resources requirements etc ^^. But I will just have to be patient :P

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by mrvn » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:49 pm

Zabanov wrote:
Andrzejef wrote:Well, hard to answer that with anything other than "they are working on it". If it's any good indicator, nuclear power appeared in plans for 0.14, just as it apprears in 0.15 + 0.16 roadmap planned features (this time alongside some 8-10 legs surprise in possible appearance - for which I am kinda pumped). So, not before 0.15 I am afraid.
They are working on it is good enough for me, I am just really curious about the mechanics of nuclear power, things like meltdowns radiation, the resources requirements etc ^^. But I will just have to be patient :P
I would rather see solar boilers. Hot water (any liquid) from solar energy. Nuclear power needs a new ore for fuel and what about the waste?

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by Andrzejef » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:00 pm

mrvn wrote: I would rather see solar boilers. Hot water (any liquid) from solar energy. Nuclear power needs a new ore for fuel and what about the waste?
Solar boilers.... Dunno. Electric boilers would seem good enough for me, I already have huge solar plants.
As for nuclear waste - that has a certain, rad ringing to it. A bioweapon ringing :mrgreen: (green-ish emote because, you know, radioactivity and stuff...)

Also, pun only halfway intended. Anyways, I'll take my coat.
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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by daniel34 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:10 pm

mrvn wrote:I would rather see solar boilers. Hot water (any liquid) from solar energy.
I'm very much against that.

How would that work? You put down some solar boilers which in daylight heat the water flowing through them (like normal boilers but without coal) and then make energy out of them using steam engines? There isn't really another use for hot water/fluid right now that makes sense.

The difference would be that solar boilers don't cause much pollution, but balancing the game between a solar panel field vs. a solar boiler + steam engine setup would be incredibly difficult as both wouldn't cause much/any pollution and they are too similar (only work at daytime and don't burn anything) and probably are equivalently big and efficient (by size).

The only reason to justify keeping both would be the research cost (one is much more expensive to research) or the material cost (solar boilers are much cheaper to build than solar panels).

It would also look strange from a size perspective: they both have to require the same space for the same power (given they are both dependant on power from the same 'sun') or the whole system would be imbalanced. Players would be wondering why there even are two implementations (solar power/solar boiler) of the same thing if one of them turns out to be superior.

TL;DR we already have an energy source depending on the 'sun's energy, why add another when there are so many alternatives available?

Note: don't take this as a personal insult as I've also thought about such ideas in the past (and made posts like this), but I've since learned that diversity in power sources is better than alternatives of the same power source.

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Re: Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

Post by Andrzejef » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:27 pm

daniel34 wrote: I'm very much against that.

(...)

TL;DR we already have an energy source depending on the 'sun's energy, why add another when there are so many alternatives available?

Note: don't take this as a personal insult as I've also thought about such ideas in the past (and made posts like this), but I've since learned that diversity in power sources is better than alternatives of the same power source.
That is why I proposed electric one instead.
But you have to admit, having pretty much everything working on electricity, it's a bit strange boilers are still coal (or oil derivatives) powered. Especially looking at electric furnace. Stupid, even.
AndaleTheGreat wrote: As for the speed and efficiency modules that would go against the current method of researching upgrades. I actually quite agree that this could be a better method tho. Using speed modules for... you know... speed, then using efficiency modules for accuracy. The increased damage, in my opinion, should be set only by the ammo used.

I would like to see the bullet turrets be modular. Build the turret base then attach a gun for specific purposes. Long barreled for distance and accuracy but reduced speed... stuff like that. Then you could swap out the turret's gun to put in higher caliber ammo when you can afford to.
Intriguing, won't say it's not. Making them e.g. some sort of sentry towers. Nice one.
Plus then - I think it would come only natural - it would be nice to have some basic terraforming (i.e. digging/filling moats, generally working on "level 0" and "level -1", something akin to what Perimeter game had).
Won't lie, I am kinda intrigued with the perspective of having "factorised" Stronghold series :D
Last edited by Andrzejef on Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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