Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by ipushpeople » Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:39 pm

I support your 32 bit decisions

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by ExcessionOz » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:59 am

It's obvious to me that 32bit has been dead for ages. It's obvious to me that people who still use 32bit systems should not be whining that a hardware intensive job game required a capable processor (and operating system).

This doesn't mean that the transfer from Windows XP to Windows 10 64bit will be painless. But that's the price we all must pay for change. Remember, you can use VMWare or some other 'emulator' to host your unfixable 32bit applications -- there are many internet resources to help you with this onerous task.

Factorio is an amazing game, having the developers do stinky 32bit versions is cruel and unusual punishment for an -alpha- version of a game in 2016.

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Frantic Fanatic » Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:18 am

Hellos, I just wanted to quickly chime in and say that not all 64-bit machines are expensive powerhouses. I managed to get Factorio running on an Acer Cloudbook 11 (AO1-131-C9PM) that I bought for under $200. It runs constantly in the teen-twenties FPS on low graphics settings, but I can still support one main factory and several outposts without (further) slowdown. And although it comes with Win 10, you can do something more sensible like your favorite distro, I'm currently using Arch encrypted root with Xfce using model specific instructions from their wiki.

It also maxes out the memory and half a gig of swap running 6 Chromium tabs. :roll:

Unfortunately, technology marches on. Similar pain was encountered when we switched from 16 to 32 bit. This isn't limited to Factorio, either. The other game I'm playing regularly, Elite Dangerous, currently doesn't support planetary landings on 32 bit, and will be dropping 32 bit support completely next year.

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by bobingabout » Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:18 am

Rseding91 wrote:
Tilendor wrote:
keyboardhack wrote:I guess all 32 bit users should be allowed a refund.
Giving the option seems honorable. They still do have a completely working game with the current version. Just means they don't get upgrades.

Also, the upgrade check logic should respect their system stats. Don't attempt to auto-update 32 bit systems when it is impossible.
Or they could simply switch to a 64 bit OS. Virtually all hardware these days supports it anyway.
That's basically on par with "Windows XP is no longer supported, Buy a new windows 8 PC!" thing that Microsoft was doing. I'm not kidding, that's what windows update was telling me to do on my Windows XP netbook. I'm not sure if it was detecting that my netbook was incapable of running anything newer than windows XP, or if it was just telling everyone to buy a new PC, but it did. To note: my netbook is 32bit gen2 atom. I actually got it in the Vista era, I'm fairly sure that netbooks skipped vista entirely and in 2010 moved to windows 7 basic, which I'm sure if a cut down version of windows 7 specifically designed to run on netbooks. Then newer processors came out and I think the Atom series was phased out in favour of an i3, so when windows 8 came around, netbooks could just run the standard version of windows anyway... and instead of netbooks, you started getting these touchscreen tablet hybrids to take advantage of the new touch screen friendliness bullshit.
No I wouldn't expect my atom netbook to run Factorio.
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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by shawn5007 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:29 am

To put it another way:
If we extrapolate the 1% to all 500,000+ purchases of the game, that would be over 5,000 people affected. And with 20 dollars per copy, that's $100,000 of purchases from 32-bit users.

But of course, it's an estimate; the real impact is determined by the individual's financial ability to upgrade. But I feel like, to describe it as just 1%, makes it seem like a smaller change than it is.

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by lokki » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:14 am

OK, 32-bit OS is outdate etc. But my laptop have 2gb & core2 t9300. It's quite fast and quite cheap, i even wouldn't cry if I crash it. It's my big tablet)) What for do I need 64 bit os on it? It's quite enough for it. Even 64mb of memory isn't a big problem - most part of modern games are crap, for old games and factorio it's enough. I have plans to upgrade it to 128 or 256, but there a lot of problems.

Next example, on my PC at work is 32bit OS, and some soft doesn't support 64-bit OS. So nobody will reinstall 64bit OS for me. So, it's only 2 PC on witch i have time to play - at home I have 64bit OS of course, and 8gb of ram - but I haven't time for gaming. From today new updates of multiplayer are theoretical for me. Wow.

Why exactly 64 version is the only? Does the program use a lot of 64-bit variables? Or does it need more that 2gb of memory? I have bench as dedicated server on map that run VERY slow on athlon neo 1.3 (2 core k10.5@1.3, HP microserver) and I hadn't seen any difference between. By the way, even that 30mb save doesn't run slow on 32 os.

So, I'm very sad that "for the future" feature kills multiplayer for me. I'm not sure that 64-bit is needed for this game, but if so - this decision is right. I'm doubt that so optimized code will need it.

Thank you guys for really cool game, a lot of time have been spend on it, it helps me to understand that my work isn't so monotonous as I think and that planing and automation is everything)

UPD: First time i didn't saw - "since 0.15 we won't release 32 bit version". Cool. I want my money back.

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by hoho » Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:35 am

lokki wrote:OK, 32-bit OS is outdate etc. But my laptop have 2gb & core2 t9300.
That is a 64bit CPU. You can dualboot a 64bit Linux if you wish to play future versions of factorio on it.
lokki wrote:I have plans to upgrade it to 128 or 256, but there a lot of problems.
Upgrade what to 128 or 256? Hard drive? Not sure what does that have to do with anything.
lokki wrote:Next example, on my PC at work is 32bit OS, and some soft doesn't support 64-bit OS.
Could be just me but usually people don't look good at gaming during work time.
lokki wrote:Why exactly 64 version is the only?
They explained it in the FFF article. TL;DR - MP synchronization is MUCH easier when one doesn't have to worry about differences between 32 vs 64bit OSes. They won't have to have special code paths for different combinations.
lokki wrote:Or does it need more that 2gb of memory?
With bigger factories and mods, easily.
lokki wrote:UPD: First time i didn't saw - "since 0.15 we won't release 32 bit version". Cool. I want my money back.
How many hours have you played the game so far?

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by FaceEater21 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:43 am

And that's why you don't buy games in EA, Devs like to change things and fuck you up.
Hope we get 1.0 before they stop supporting 64 bits

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by HanziQ » Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:07 am

FaceEater21 wrote:And that's why you don't buy games in EA, Devs like to change things and fuck you up.
Hope we get 1.0 before they stop supporting 64 bits
I guess we could also drop 64bit support in 0.15.

Of course that would mean no one would be able to play the game, but we have a right to do that, don't we? Everyone agreed to the Terms of Service which clearly state the cases in which you're eligible for a refund and that we can change anything at any time just because we feel like it.

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by aubergine18 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:05 pm

It's just simple math - do you keep busting a gut trying to support the 1% at the expense of the 99%? Sooner or later, something has to give.
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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Rseding91 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:07 pm

HanziQ wrote:
FaceEater21 wrote:And that's why you don't buy games in EA, Devs like to change things and fuck you up.
Hope we get 1.0 before they stop supporting 64 bits
I guess we could also drop 64bit support in 0.15.

Of course that would mean no one would be able to play the game, but we have a right to do that, don't we? Everyone agreed to the Terms of Service which clearly state the cases in which you're eligible for a refund and that we can change anything at any time just because we feel like it.
We'll just wait around for 128 bit CPUs to be a thing. Some time in 2050-ish?
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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by shawn5007 » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:09 pm

HanziQ wrote:
FaceEater21 wrote:And that's why you don't buy games in EA, Devs like to change things and fuck you up.
Hope we get 1.0 before they stop supporting 64 bits
I guess we could also drop 64bit support in 0.15.

Of course that would mean no one would be able to play the game, but we have a right to do that, don't we? Everyone agreed to the Terms of Service which clearly state the cases in which you're eligible for a refund and that we can change anything at any time just because we feel like it.
The sarcasm mixed with legal jargon sounds rude. I would recommend clearly stating on Steam, GOG, etc., that 32-bit support will be dropped, so that future 32-bit customers are not misled. That could hurt Wube's reputation.

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Klonan » Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:05 pm

shawn5007 wrote: I would recommend clearly stating on Steam, GOG, etc., that 32-bit support will be dropped, so that future 32-bit customers are not misled. That could hurt Wube's reputation.
Yep, we will be updating the minimum requirements to reflect the situation, that from 0.15 onward there will be no 32 bit versions of the game available.

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by ukezi » Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:18 pm

I think that is a really good idea to drop 32-bit support.
@ bobingabout Atoms still exists. the atoms from 2008 (Atom 230 and 330) onwards had 64 bit and from 2013 onwards out of order execution. so the new atoms are way faster than the first ones and quite close to the desktop architecture.

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by TigBits » Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:48 am

The loss of the x86 version is disappointing but understandable. I'm just glad I didn't buy the game yet.

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by floodo1 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:47 am

who knew dropping 32bit support would be so controversial? Same with the curved rails ... hard to look at the high-res rail preview image and think anything other than "WOW rails are improved tremendously!" (=8

Looking forward to the next 0.xx version as always!!

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by RobertTerwilliger » Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:55 am

RobertTerwilliger wrote:
Zeblote wrote:Please tell me you didn't just make new textures without fixing this first?!?

Image
You see, it is impossible to make perfect circle without adding new 90°-turn rail (that will be connectable only on ends, BTW)
Because 135° turn has to be snapped to grid. If it will form perfect arc - it will be very long to fulfill all mathematical requirements - 135° arc's H:W ratio is roughly 12:5 (acually, it's 2.4142:1), meaning you'll need to have that arcing piece 24 cells high and 10 cells wide (considering rail grid is 2x2 of original Factorio grid)
So, be happy with what you have ; )
Actually, I've made some test with geometry (I haven't counted some factors before), and have found there're 3 optimal sizes to fix this issue. It seems, Wube was very close to optimum, but at some reason they made 12x12 circle, while 10x10 is MUCH better. Another close-to-circle sizes are 6x6 and 16x16. Honestly, 6x6 it the closest, but it's way too steep turn ))

So, I suppose it is possible to make the change in the way devs usually do it: old circles will stay until dismantled, and new turns will be new ones. However I doubt Wube would do it ;D
UPD: even better change algoritm: on loading previous saves, old curves should be converted into new curve+piece of diagonal rail

*This will also make possible S-curves to make minimum offset =2 instead of current 3, making more compact builds possible.
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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by bobingabout » Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:12 am

ukezi wrote:I think that is a really good idea to drop 32-bit support.
@ bobingabout Atoms still exists. the atoms from 2008 (Atom 230 and 330) onwards had 64 bit and from 2013 onwards out of order execution. so the new atoms are way faster than the first ones and quite close to the desktop architecture.
My netbook is the N200 series, which doesn't have 64bit. I also have a D520 which is running windows 7 64bit. I often use it as a home game server. Like when I want to host Terraria.
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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Balinor » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:06 am

HanziQ wrote:
FaceEater21 wrote:And that's why you don't buy games in EA, Devs like to change things and fuck you up.
Hope we get 1.0 before they stop supporting 64 bits
I guess we could also drop 64bit support in 0.15.

Of course that would mean no one would be able to play the game, but we have a right to do that, don't we? Everyone agreed to the Terms of Service which clearly state the cases in which you're eligible for a refund and that we can change anything at any time just because we feel like it.
Even though the change to 64 bit wont affect me at all I expect a little more professionalism from staff than this, frankly you are just being rude.

Secondly, TOS don't really mean much at all what matters is consumer law and in some places you may be forced to offer a refund for things being different than at the time of sale, just fyi.

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Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Klonan » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:12 am

Balinor wrote:
Secondly, TOS don't really mean much at all what matters is consumer law and in some places you may be forced to offer a refund for things being different than at the time of sale, just fyi.

Well we have made things very clear, on our site we promise you will have access to all future factorio updates for free,
However we make no promise of the game content, and it would be impossible to develop any software if we refunded our supporters for every decision they didn't like.

In the end we aren't trying to screw over our 32 bit players,
It is just better for the game development and the rest of the community for the sacrifice to be made,
And with any change to the game, some people won't like it of course,
But we hope we can keep the communities trust to do what is best for the game

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