Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Regular reports on Factorio development.
Post Reply
MF-
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:07 am
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by MF- » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:12 am

Deadly-Bagel wrote:
Asterix wrote:So, how hard would it be to release a 32-bit "unsupported" version?

As in: the underlying code is the same as the 64-bits version, recompiled for 32-bits, but the game is only supported for 64-bits, so if you only have a 32-bit system, and the port doesn't work, well, sorry about that, try a different version.
There are so many things wrong with this. What exactly would this accomplish? Either the release would work or it wouldn't, and unless they specifically fix it to work it won't.
I don't see that many problems if this "unsupported" version did not support multiplayer.
Unless the compiler is just broken... give me a reason why it should not work in singleplayer?

PS: Personally, I consider (current) VRAM requirements to be more disabling than the (future) 64bit requirement.
Deadly-Bagel wrote:
Even if it -sort of- works, everyone would be forever repeating themselves that the x86 version is unsupported, not to mention how many bug reports would surface which then requires manpower to deduce if they're running the supported version or the unsupported version.

Lastly it's bad image for a company to release something like that. Say someone does buy it, assuming the 32 bit version is basically the same, only to encounter hundreds of bugs and performance problems and the like. They're going to think "what a crap game, why would the developers release something like this?" rather than getting their friends into it, then there's the impact it would have on Steam reviews.
To prevent bug reports, what about de-branding the binaries?
What if the unsupported version was called "Unsupportio" or something?
Running 'sed s/factorio/unsupportio/gi' over the translation files is trivial..
No need to re-do fancy logos either. Just replace them with mspaint hand-scribbled text.

Sure. This version should not be advertised at all.
It should be at least a bit hidden too.

PS: Those using old hardware certainly have different requirements of speed or smoothness.. helps.

PPS: I can't tell if any of the Factorio staff read this, can I?

Asterix
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Asterix » Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:24 pm

Deadly-Bagel wrote:
Asterix wrote:So, how hard would it be to release a 32-bit "unsupported" version?

As in: the underlying code is the same as the 64-bits version, recompiled for 32-bits, but the game is only supported for 64-bits, so if you only have a 32-bit system, and the port doesn't work, well, sorry about that, try a different version.

Dropping "support" doesn't necessarily mean no longer *releasing* 32-bits versions - it just means that all 32-bits versions will be "unsupported":if they work by sheer luck, good, if they don't work, well... Try downgrading to the last supported version.
There are so many things wrong with this. What exactly would this accomplish? Either the release would work or it wouldn't, and unless they specifically fix it to work it won't.

Even if it -sort of- works, everyone would be forever repeating themselves that the x86 version is unsupported, not to mention how many bug reports would surface which then requires manpower to deduce if they're running the supported version or the unsupported version.

Lastly it's bad image for a company to release something like that. Say someone does buy it, assuming the 32 bit version is basically the same, only to encounter hundreds of bugs and performance problems and the like. They're going to think "what a crap game, why would the developers release something like this?" rather than getting their friends into it, then there's the impact it would have on Steam reviews.
I believe most of your statements to be factually incorrect. Squad, for one, released an unsupported version of KSP for years, and nobody called them names for doing so. On the contrary, everybody appreciated the fact that the option was there, even if it was not officially supported.

The main stated issue with 64 vs 32 bit is that somehow they behave differently in multiplayer, not that the 32 bit version is somehow "more broken"; restricting multiplayer to the same version of the binary would fix that, and if you are playing with friends and only have a 32 bit version, well, your friends with a 32 bit system can use the 32 bit version.

mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3281
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by mrvn » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:22 am

Asterix wrote:
Deadly-Bagel wrote: The main stated issue with 64 vs 32 bit is that somehow they behave differently in multiplayer, not that the 32 bit version is somehow "more broken"; restricting multiplayer to the same version of the binary would fix that, and if you are playing with friends and only have a 32 bit version, well, your friends with a 32 bit system can use the 32 bit version.
I think you ment "your friend with a 64 bit system can use the 32bit version".

I think the reasons for dropping 32bit where convincing: It takes an unproportional amount of resources from the dev team for a minority of players, the majority of which could probably use the 64bit version anyway. From a players point of view I find the other reason much more worrysome: Due to the hardware limit of 32bit my mega factory would run out of memory half way. Face it guys, <4GB ram isn't anything to write home about in todays world.

Asterix
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Asterix » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:03 pm

mrvn wrote:
Asterix wrote:
Deadly-Bagel wrote: The main stated issue with 64 vs 32 bit is that somehow they behave differently in multiplayer, not that the 32 bit version is somehow "more broken"; restricting multiplayer to the same version of the binary would fix that, and if you are playing with friends and only have a 32 bit version, well, your friends with a 32 bit system can use the 32 bit version.
I think you ment "your friend with a 64 bit system can use the 32bit version".
Why yes, yes I did.

Aside from that, all I'm saying is, release a 32-bit executable, just the executable, in a zipfile all on its lonesome on a page three links down the road, and whoever wants to use it can download the official, *supported* 64-bit zip/tar package, and muck around to their heart's content trying to make it work. If this ends up reformatting your cat, well, you knew you were mucking around with unsupported software.

User avatar
Deadly-Bagel
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1493
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:12 am
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:04 pm

Asterix wrote:all I'm saying is, release a 32-bit executable, just the executable, in a zipfile all on its lonesome on a page three links down the road, and whoever wants to use it can download the official, *supported* 64-bit zip/tar package, and muck around to their heart's content trying to make it work. If this ends up reformatting your cat, well, you knew you were mucking around with unsupported software.
I'll do one better, here's a stable version with an installer:

https://www.factorio.com/get-download/0 ... lpha/win32
VolvoxGlobator wrote:Dropping 32 bit supports, thus locking <1% of your backers from new content - meaning that they will never get to play the 1.0 release. The release they have paid for.
They will get to play the 1.0 release when their 15 year old junk pile caves in on itself and they buy a x64 replacement.

Tell me, of all the people complaining of this announcement how many are actually running solely on 32 bit?
Money might be the root of all evil, but ignorance is the heart.

User avatar
tehroach
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:04 am
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by tehroach » Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:48 pm

Deadly-Bagel wrote:Tell me, of all the people complaining of this announcement how many are actually running solely on 32 bit?
I think this would make for an interesting poll :)

Well, at least I would find it interesting, as the other day on my walk around my block there would have been about five or six PCs sitting around for kerb side pick-up.
I took an interest in them because I am lacking DDR-2 for several of my old PCs (well 2Gb sticks, got heaps of 1Gb)
all of them were 64-bit platforms that people were just throwing away.

So I tend to find it hard to believe that there would still be people that are locked into 32-bit for hardware reasons.

Anyway I just wanted to let people that may not know,
If you are locked into 32-bit because you are running a 32-bit OS on a 64-bit platform and are running Windows 7 or above just reinstall the 64-bit equivalent OS and use your 32-bit key,
this has worked for me every time that I have tried it.

So your problem will be solved :)

PS this may or may not apply to Mac users as I have never tried it on Mac
and may not be advisable or useful for XP users that are reading this, other than a laugh.

daniel34
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 2757
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:30 am
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by daniel34 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:16 pm

tehroach wrote:PS this may or may not apply to Mac users as I have never tried it on Mac
The Mac version of Factorio has been 64-bit only since 0.12.21 (January 2016) when support for OS X 10.6 was dropped. OS X 10.7 and newer are all 64-bit only operating systems.

User avatar
tehroach
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:04 am
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by tehroach » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:46 am

daniel34 wrote:
tehroach wrote:PS this may or may not apply to Mac users as I have never tried it on Mac
The Mac version of Factorio has been 64-bit only since 0.12.21 (January 2016) when support for OS X 10.6 was dropped. OS X 10.7 and newer are all 64-bit only operating systems.
All righty then, you learn something new every day.
Thanks for the info that I am too lazy to find for myself, lol

Hence my fix is likely to help a higher % than I thought. :)

But in the defence of my ignorance, I must refer back to the "may or may not" clause in my PS statement, lol :P

Asterix
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Asterix » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:16 pm

One system I am currently running is a Linux with some interesting (read: potatoish) hardware. It's a 32 bit system which will remain 32 bt for the foreseeable future, since it has problems with the latest kernels (the graphics chipset doesn't want to play nice with the available drivers).

It has run factorio very nicely ever since I installed it, but it won't be able to run 0.15 without a 32 bit executable. It's not the end of the world, but it would be nice to have a 32 bit build under "experimental".

Rseding91
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 9253
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:23 am
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Rseding91 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:54 pm

Asterix wrote:One system I am currently running is a Linux with some interesting (read: potatoish) hardware. It's a 32 bit system which will remain 32 bt for the foreseeable future, since it has problems with the latest kernels (the graphics chipset doesn't want to play nice with the available drivers).

It has run factorio very nicely ever since I installed it, but it won't be able to run 0.15 without a 32 bit executable. It's not the end of the world, but it would be nice to have a 32 bit build under "experimental".
Releasing a 32 bit binary means we have to still include it in the release cycle and support saving/loading with it and all that. It's the exact same as fully supporting it if we have it at all - which is why we won't be doing that.

You can keep playing 0.14 on any 32 bit computers you have.
If you want to get ahold of me I'm almost always on Discord.

User avatar
Cabanur
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:29 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Cabanur » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:30 pm

I'm pretty sure this has already been said in this thread, but 64-bit architectures have been around since 2004. That's 13 years.

THIRTEEN YEARS. That is a **very** long time in the gaming industry. Basically 64-bit computers have been widely adopted (not only available) for as long as we have been waiting for Half-Life 3.

Guys. It's time. RIP 32-bit computers.

White-Tiger
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:01 am
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by White-Tiger » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:37 pm

Cabanur wrote:[...]
Guys. It's time. RIP 32-bit computers.
Won't happen ;) Not for a while at least. Probably never on x86(_64)
Cabanur wrote:[...]
THIRTEEN YEARS. That is a **very** long time in the gaming industry. [...]
(Starcraft added support for 64bit a few months ago)
You shouldn't compare the situation with how old 64bit is either. Because Windows only adapted it "recently"... XP can't be considered, Vista is a well known failure and Windows 7 isn't that old and the first major Windows that properly supported 64bit. Which means a lot of people did still stick to the well-known 32bit version besides Microsoft had the tendency to have different set of keys for 32bit and 64bit Windows. Which also meant you'd upgrade your old rig to the same bitness. (mostly 32bit)
Then there's the issue that a 64bit OS also used more memory which used to be a bad choice if you only had about 2GB of RAM and no disk-space to spare.

Smartphones also started with 32bit for some reason and only recently switched over to 64bit (which is still the reason why MX Player isn't using any hardware codec on a 64bit platform)

So you can't say it's dead... and 32bit might be of importance if Factorio is ever to build a mobile version (would be awesome :P)

P.S. even 16bit isn't dead yet.. but that's a different story (and special use cases)

User avatar
Deadly-Bagel
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1493
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:12 am
Contact:

Re: Friday facts #158 - The end of the 32 bit era

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:11 pm

White-Tiger wrote:P.S. even 16bit isn't dead yet.. but that's a different story (and special use cases)
Like the tills in most supermarkets and retail outlets lmao
Money might be the root of all evil, but ignorance is the heart.

Post Reply

Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users