Friday Facts #137 - The release scarecrow

[Fatmice]

The gif clearly shows that the rapid inserter is grabbing wires from the output as it is made by the assembler to fill its buffer then execute a move when that buffer is full. So maybe Vaclav is talking about something else?

This behavior is logical and as it should be. Though I don't know how well it will behave with mixed wagon load/unload, but presumably some will get stuck holding partial buffer.

[ratchetfreak]

The gif clearly shows that the rapid inserter is grabbing wires from the output as it is made by the assembler to fill its buffer then execute a move when that buffer is full. So maybe Vaclav is talking about something else?

This behavior is logical and as it should be. Though I don't know how well it will behave with mixed wagon load/unload, but presumably some will get stuck holding partial buffer.

There are already cases where inserters get stuck with partial stacks when loading trains, so having the option to use an inserter without the stack bonus would help a lot there.

[huhn]

Currently, assembly machines stop working when they have stored 8 copper cable as an output, which means after researching enough stack size bonuses, all direct insertion using rapid inseters will suddenly stop working, which would be highly annoying for experienced players and highly confusing for newer players.

Thats not how it will work

This example setup shows how direct insertion will be more effective with the rapid inserters:
https://gfycat.com/LonelySmoothDunnart

when is the rapid inserter starting to add new item in this case?

is it starting to add new iron plates if the output in the assembler isn't "full" AND iron plates are below 4 or how that this work now?

the rapid inserter should be to slow in this case to get the iron in time.

in the video you can easily see where one inserter stops collecting iron plates from the belt after one iron plate rapid inserter is adding the iron plates in the assembler.

with a higher stack bonus this operation will take longer and can hold production for a some small time.

edit:

and an another major problem.
a rapid inserter will take items very uneven from belts. a lot at the same time and than it stops taking items making the belt compression very uneven this effect is again amplified with the higher stack bonus and can stop production later on the same belt if a rapid inserter is used amplified by the higher stack bonus again.

[Linosaurus]

Brief test of current behaviour. Test recipe: 1 copper plate -> 2 copper wire.
Assembler only stops working by itself when output is a full stack of 200.
Input inserter stops working if there already is 2 copper plate in there. (2x recipe).
Input inserter stops working if there is 4+ copper wire in output. (2x recipe).
In practice this leads to 8 wire (4x recipe) in the output. Potentially more if stack bonus was used on input, so there where 5 plates there instead of 2.

I'm guessing that 'stops working' means the rapid assembler will not pick up items.

Scenario I'm concerned about:
Green circuit assembler needs items, rapid inserter starts picking up copper wire. If you somehow only have 8 in there, then it'll pick up 8 and wait for the input assembler to do it's thing, then for processing. Significant lag.

But, in the copper wire example, this will not happen since output is an even multiple of input. You'll have 0 or 11 or 22 wires waiting. ... huh. Not a problem in this case at all.

[Zeblote]

Currently, assembly machines stop working when they have stored 8 copper cable as an output, which means after researching enough stack size bonuses, all direct insertion using rapid inseters will suddenly stop working, which would be highly annoying for experienced players and highly confusing for newer players.

Thats not how it will work

This example setup shows how direct insertion will be more effective with the rapid inserters:
https://gfycat.com/LonelySmoothDunnart

Why does the right cable assembler stop producing for a few moments?

Looks like they're starting to grab the copper too late, the machine runs out before they can deliver it. Can you make them start collecting stuff at a higher number of remaining items than normal inserters?

[Klonan]

Currently, assembly machines stop working when they have stored 8 copper cable as an output, which means after researching enough stack size bonuses, all direct insertion using rapid inseters will suddenly stop working, which would be highly annoying for experienced players and highly confusing for newer players.

Thats not how it will work

This example setup shows how direct insertion will be more effective with the rapid inserters:
https://gfycat.com/LonelySmoothDunnart

Why does the right cable assembler stop producing for a few moments?

Looks like they're starting to grab the copper too late, the machine runs out before they can deliver it. Can you make them start collecting stuff at a higher number of remaining items than normal inserters?

Yep, just a minor bug for now:
https://gfycat.com/AggressiveRewardingAmericanbittern

[Zeblote]

Currently, assembly machines stop working when they have stored 8 copper cable as an output, which means after researching enough stack size bonuses, all direct insertion using rapid inseters will suddenly stop working, which would be highly annoying for experienced players and highly confusing for newer players.

Thats not how it will work

This example setup shows how direct insertion will be more effective with the rapid inserters:
https://gfycat.com/LonelySmoothDunnart

Why does the right cable assembler stop producing for a few moments?

Looks like they're starting to grab the copper too late, the machine runs out before they can deliver it. Can you make them start collecting stuff at a higher number of remaining items than normal inserters?

Yep, just a minor bug for now:
https://gfycat.com/AggressiveRewardingAmericanbittern

If that'll be fixed, great! I just realized that current fast inserters seem to have the same problem (starting to grab copper too late), maybe it's more a general issue that the assembling speed is ignored?

[Fatmice]

Yep, just a minor bug for now:
https://gfycat.com/AggressiveRewardingAmericanbittern

Looks to me like most of the time it waits for 11 items but sometimes it grabs them as they are produced. This is fine for copper wire since output can be at 5x recipe. Can you gif something slower like robot frames so that we can see clearly what it is doing when an item is hot off the assembler?

[Zeblote]

Yep, just a minor bug for now:
https://gfycat.com/AggressiveRewardingAmericanbittern

Looks to me like most of the time it waits for 11 items but sometimes it grabs them as they are produced. This is fine for copper wire since output can be at 5x recipe. Can you gif something slower like robot frames so that we can see clearly what it is doing when an item is hot off the assembler?

You're right, that gif actually shows two seperate issues:

1) the inserter grabbing copper from the belt is triggering too late, so the assembler has to stop.
2) the inserter grabbing cables out of the machine has inconsistent behaviour - sometimes it waits for the stack to fill, sometimes it grabs every single item instantly.

[Neotix]

About 2. For me it's looks like inserter is waiting for stack but also move when next inserter need cable. It works like normal inserter with stack bonus.

[Linosaurus]

If that'll be fixed, great! I just realized that current fast inserters seem to have the same problem (starting to grab copper too late), maybe it's more a general issue that the assembling speed is ignored?

Speed is ignored, yes. Perhaps the rule should be to have at least a one second buffer of material, or however long it takes for a rapid inserter to do a work cycle.

If it is one second, it'll affect only the fastest recipes in assemblers (speed 1.25), but not in blue assemblers (speed 0.75). (unless modules). It would also apply to substations and locomotives made in yellow assemblers, so maybe change those recipes to 1s crafting time.

[RobertTerwilliger]

If the outpost won't take a lot in stead state then you don't need the stack bonus.

True, but it will take initially to fill storage. This is NOT vital, but it's good to have the feature.
I hope we'll get the feature. This post gives me the hope:

I wonder, if smart inserter can be replaced by combination of Circuit Network Connector Writer and normal inserter. Because this way we could get long handed smart inserter without adding new entity.

That's exactly what you can do now. Circuit Network Connector Writer+Long Hand Inserter will work.

It's a bit outdated, but I hope the idea is still alive (^_^)

However there's a scary shadow of misunderstanding: it seems Twinsen confirmed inserter will work like a pump connected to circuit network, but the question was about filter function, which probably won't be possible to set via circuit signal...

Well, there's a hidden "filter chest" in game - it is called "wagon" : ) You set inserters to unload train directly into wagon standing on tiny rail piece next to station, and having filters required. This is ugly though...

Look carefully at the hand of the inserters, you will see them holding a wire while waiting to pick up from the wire assemblers. This would mean that it empties out the assembler while waiting on the stack.

Good catch. Another mystery is solved, my dear Watson!

[Zeblote]

If that'll be fixed, great! I just realized that current fast inserters seem to have the same problem (starting to grab copper too late), maybe it's more a general issue that the assembling speed is ignored?

Speed is ignored, yes.

Oh. That needs to be fixed, then. To keep it simple, just multiply the amount of resources that the inserter stores in the assembler with it's assembling speed.

[AutoMcD]

My $0.02

Very much looking forward to next version!

About the stack bonus: When I first buzzed through the post what hit my brain was that the rapid inserter was getting 2x the stack bonus, and it would be the only one able to apply that to conveyor. I didn't realize the others getting nerfed until reading the thread so had to re-read it.

I feel that it should work the way I first thought. The stack bonus I sort of looked at as a "bonus" for inserting things from point to point without having to drop it on a conveyor. It's an incentive to design efficiently, and of course physical size of buildings/containers limits this. Then whatever the stack bonus is, rapid gets 2x but must wait until full so could be a trap.

In either case, the sentiment that it invalidates long handed inserter I can't agree with. It's extremely useful because of its reach, regardless of bonus or not.

When it comes down to it, most of the gripes I'm hearing can be resolved via more production to maintain throughput, or a less dense layout to allow more inserters. Or letting the train sit at the stop an extra 5 seconds. If this is world breaking then maybe take a walk until you have better perspective?

[Zeblote]

Can we have a different color (or better, a different graphic) for the new inserters? They're too close to the fast inserters, didn't even realize they aren't the same until now...

Smart vs normal inserters are also very similar, but those are getting removed so it's not a problem.

[bobingabout]

Speed is ignored, yes. Perhaps the rule should be to have at least a one second buffer of material, or however long it takes for a rapid inserter to do a work cycle.

If it is one second, it'll affect only the fastest recipes in assemblers (speed 1.25), but not in blue assemblers (speed 0.75). (unless modules). It would also apply to substations and locomotives made in yellow assemblers, so maybe change those recipes to 1s crafting time.

I shudder to think how much it would try to load into a bob's assembling machine MK6 filled with god modules.

[HammerPiano]

me too:)
will it be about flamethrower turret?
or that 0.13 will go out soon?

[Bi0nicM4n]

OK, I might be a little late, but still. As I understand, the rapid inserter becomes an Inserter To Rule Them All, if all old inserters lose stack bonus. And if it’s done, yet another inserter (the fast one now) will become forgotten – it will follow the footsteps of burner and yellow inserters (yellow not so much). Do we really need that? Rapid inserters obviously shine in compressing belts and loading assemblers from belts. Let other inserters do their jobs as well, so that players can use any kind of inserter whenever they want.

On the case with rapid inserters waiting – if their item stack is configurable, this is no more a problem. And if someone wants inserters with no stack bonus to make use of some fancy logic gates, the answer is the same – configurable item stack.

And this may be offtopic, but, seriously, revert the default logistic request amount to 1. It's ridiculous when you try to request 10 or so green circuits to a requester chest and logibots put there 100 because that's how much they picked. It's even more ridiculous that we have to use mod that fixes it.

[siggboy]

And this may be offtopic, but, seriously, revert the default logistic request amount to 1. It's ridiculous when you try to request 10 or so green circuits to a requester chest and logibots put there 100 because that's how much they picked. It's even more ridiculous that we have to use mod that fixes it.

THIS.

(I think it's even worse in character logistic slots than in requester chests. You don't even have time to set the correct value because the bots are already on the way with 40 engine units or whatever...)

[Qon]

You know, where actually do you need the stack bonus anyway?
Apart from copper wire from assembler to assembler and train unloading I can't really name situation.
Well, there's also, gunturret loading, which doesn't really eat through clip in the timespan needed for inserter to fetch another one, does it?
And then there's logistic chests unloading, where it's more of a debuff to logibutts. (I foresee the suggestion board getting spammed with "logistic bots insert items directly to assemblers" in the future.)

A gun turret eats 3 ammo/second. A fast inserter supplies 2.31/s without stack bonus. But a rapid inserter will grab even more so gun turrets won't become useless. And rapid inserter will work with logistics chests too.

Would be nice to have a new type of inserter as someone has mentioned earlier, have it be a crane, it moves vast amounts of items at once between containers. Maybe have something like tower that you build, connect floating 'rails' between them with a crane that moves along them to move things between chests (a mini-logistics network for just those set of air-rails-along-towers perhaps?).

I would like that. I was thinking of the exact same idea myself
Higher throughput than logistics bots but a bit more complicated to set up and less range. Well it's a bit like a logistics network that doesn't connect to any other network.

This example setup shows how direct insertion will be more effective with the rapid inserters:
https://gfycat.com/LonelySmoothDunnart

The belt pickup and drop off is beautiful. But belts don't have enough throughput for big beacon builds. You can't use many parallell belts because then your beacons won't be utilised as effectivly. When we have belts 10 times faster than express belts then we won't need huge belt busses as much. With productivity modules you need speed beacons. With speed beacons you need extremely compact factories. Only bots can provide that atm.

Can we have a different color (or better, a different graphic) for the new inserters? They're too close to the fast inserters, didn't even realize they aren't the same until now...
Smart vs normal inserters are also very similar, but those are getting removed so it's not a problem.

I have no problem at all seeing the difference. It's possible to be colorblind without knowing it, or your monitor might not be calibrated properly.

This just seems a bit strange to me:

InserterBalance.png (23.36 KiB) Viewed 4591 times

Fast inserters will be slower than burner inserters are now.