Friday Facts #134 - Signal placement indicator

[bbgun06]

I find one of the most time consuming aspects of rail is working out the distances between signals to try and keep a uniform signal separation.

Blueprints or FARL, currently. Perhaps if you have large power poles, put the signals next to them?

Or perhaps we can have draggable signals?

[Narnach]

Welcome Mishka!

Those signal changes look good and look useful!

I think the 0.13 release is going to be Big Thing, because there will be a LOT of really nice features in it.

[YotaXP]

My 0.13 expectations are growing to a point where they will be difficult to meet. I'm also getting worried about bugs. Every few feature will introduce bugs, and there are a LOT of new features coming.

As for the signals. Would it be possible to allow us to bypass the placement checks by holding Shift, for instance? This feature will definitely make life easier, but there are still situations where we'll want to just say "I know what I'm doing" and place one somewhere that may not make sense at the moment.

[Weresmilodon]

Or perhaps we can have draggable signals?

This is probably the simplest and easiest solution at this time.

[wwdragon]

I totally agree.
That rail signal indicator thing will make it sooo much easier!

[SDCore]

I absolutely love the idea of the signal indicator, but I feel like all the different squares can be a little distracting.

Instead, I think something like this would look better, at least in my opinion:



A line connecting the first and last point, signifying you can place there (if that makes any sense).

[danbliss123]

Since this is my first post on this forum - this game is so great. And the new signal placement indicators will help alot.

Now that thats out of the way, I would like to join the players petitioning to keep "illegal" signal placement. It lets you create sections of track that can only be manually driven through. This is consistent with the game's design goals because it (1) does not require adding new items to the game (like a stop sign), and (2) allows players to be as creative as they like with signals.

I use a design that I really like where I have a track around the entire perimeter of my base. This track is signaled such that trains can go from the interior to the perimeter, but not back.

factorio_perimeter.png (6.74 KiB) Viewed 7625 times

This means that if I want to visit a spot on the perimeter (say, it is under attack), I just plop a locomotive on the tracks anywhere, and tell it to go to the perimeter train station I want to visit. The train will take me there. If I want to get back, I have to manually drive past the 1-way signals, and then I can command it to go to whatever interior station I want. Normal automated trains will never use the perimeter because of the signaling.

In this design, the perimeter itself is an "illegal" block because you cannot get out of it without violating the signals. Please let me keep my perimeter design!

[indjev99]

Since this is my first post on this forum - this game is so great. And the new signal placement indicators will help alot.

Now that thats out of the way, I would like to join the players petitioning to keep "illegal" signal placement. It lets you create sections of track that can only be manually driven through. This is consistent with the game's design goals because it (1) does not require adding new items to the game (like a stop sign), and (2) allows players to be as creative as they like with signals.

I use a design that I really like where I have a track around the entire perimeter of my base. This track is signaled such that trains can go from the interior to the perimeter, but not back.

factorio_perimeter.png

This means that if I want to visit a spot on the perimeter (say, it is under attack), I just plop a locomotive on the tracks anywhere, and tell it to go to the perimeter train station I want to visit. The train will take me there. If I want to get back, I have to manually drive past the 1-way signals, and then I can command it to go to whatever interior station I want. Normal automated trains will never use the perimeter because of the signaling.

In this design, the perimeter itself is an "illegal" block because you cannot get out of it without violating the signals. Please let me keep my perimeter design!

I agree that designs like this should be possible, but I think a simple stop sign, which just acts like signal that's permanently on red, would be better. That way you still keep all the benefits of the new indicators, keep interesting designs such as this one possible, AND even make them more accessible to new players because the moment you see a stop sign you start wondering about the possibilities, while with the current system, you first have to get quite experienced with the system to even start thinking about how you can utilise these seemingly useless signal configurations.

[Gecko]

Welcome Mishka, I hope you are well! Many wishes for your new Job!


There is (again) much controversy going on about a feature that is going to be implemented in a future update; the paternalism of the new rail system.

When I think back about two and a half years when I was about to figure out the rail system in Factorio I so dearly wished there was anything alike.
A marker yelling at me: THIS SIGNAL PLACING IS BULLSH****
It would have helped so much and saved hours of frustration. What I'm going to say is, for everyone starting Factorio this is going to be a huge support.

B U T T

not so much for players who mastered the rail system and use (even abuse) the techniques the rail system (until 0.12.XX) consists of to their advantages. I don't like to be limited in the way I play any game labeled a 'sandbox alike game'. Also many experienced players use F.A.R.L (TM) for convenient rail placing like myself. But I don't have any kind of blueprint for on/off ramps of outposts. I prefer double headers so every outpost I build depends on the two-directional rail segments.

I would suggest some kind of option to turn on (and of course off) a 'help for starters' like an ongoing tutorial in freeplay after the actual tutorial missions finished. Several other 'helping hands' features could be added to support new players to ease into the game. So it would be up to each player for how long to use these 'helping hands' or not.

This way the gameplay for experienced players would not be restricted and one can choose the way they'd like the benefit of a 'helping hand'.

[Mengmoshu]

I like the new "hand holding" features for rails even though I've mostly learned to manage already. It is a good thing to make Factorio more approachable, and to do it sooner rather than later.

But...

Since Factorio is about creative solutions for a lot of players there probably shouldn't be more restrictions on what they can do than are necessary.

With those two things in mind I very strongly support a placement override key that lets you place signals in semi-valid locations like closed blocks. This would let experienced players build their player only zones or place signals in an order that makes early signals invalid until the later signals are placed.

[Zeblote]

What is everyone talking about with restrictions? It looks like it just highlights where you can already place signals?

[BlackLight]

Signal placement indicator: +1

[Choumiko]

What is everyone talking about with restrictions? It looks like it just highlights where you can already place signals?

So I decided, that it won't be possible to place a signal in the opposite direction as long as there is no exit from the block in that direction. The signal can be always upgraded to a 2-way signal, by building a signal on the opposite side (the grey marks). As long as it is not done, the indicator will only show the placement on the correct side of the rail and won't allow incorrect placements by accident. This is especially useful when signaling junctions like this:

(right above the last image)

I think not allowing it isn't really necessary, signaling novices will very likely follow the indicators anyway, experts can still do what they want (without having to place extra signals just to be able to place the one they originally wanted and then removing the extras)

[Ojelle]

Because with 0.13, there will be only one rail type : straight. The rail will automatically adapt to the shape of the track you're building, and curve accordingly as needed, using only straight rails from your inventory.
Source : http://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-113

On the engine part, there are still different "pieces" with different hitboxes/connectors. The new rail placement system only hides that - smartly - so it goes smoother for the end user with only one item to handle/craft. But you need the engine to be able to pick from a variety of pieces to be able able to get smooth/cute designs which will really give a great feeling to laying out track.

Damn, didnt even realize that and i got over 400 hours under my belt O_o

[Sinnersaix]

Soooo you saying the Signal System was kind ofamess and that im not THAT Stupid =) Still i dont realy get the Difference between the two Signaltypes for Rails.

[ske]

Soooo you saying the Signal System was kind ofamess and that im not THAT Stupid =) Still i dont realy get the Difference between the two Signaltypes for Rails.

You mean normal and chain signal?

[The Phoenixian]

I like the new "hand holding" features for rails even though I've mostly learned to manage already. It is a good thing to make Factorio more approachable, and to do it sooner rather than later.

But...

Since Factorio is about creative solutions for a lot of players there probably shouldn't be more restrictions on what they can do than are necessary.

With those two things in mind I very strongly support a placement override key that lets you place signals in semi-valid locations like closed blocks. This would let experienced players build their player only zones or place signals in an order that makes early signals invalid until the later signals are placed.

I don't know about allowing build order freedom, or the need for it, but if you want a manual only section it seems it would just be a matter of placing signals for two blocks of two way track and removing pieces from opposite halves.

[tehroach]

Really looking forward to the flame thrower having a purpose, will it be possible at any time to make the vehicle weapons changeable?
ie be able to put the flame thrower on a tank or car.

Or perhaps we can have draggable signals?

This is probably the simplest and easiest solution at this time.

I personally think that this would be a great idea, maybe if the player could also manually adjust the distance with the +/- keys similar to adjusting the size of concrete or stone.

Soooo you saying the Signal System was kind ofamess and that im not THAT Stupid =) Still i dont realy get the Difference between the two Signaltypes for Rails.

It took me a while to understand the difference between the two at first too,

In general you should mainly use normal signals on single path tracks
ie when one track is used for one direction and another track for the reverse direction,
however when dealing with tracks that cover multiple paths
ie. tracks that cross or when a single track is used in both directions you should use a chain signal on the entrance path and a regular signal on the exit path with NO signals in the middle.
As this will prevent trains from blocking other paths or getting stuck.

If you would like more examples or a demonstration you can down load it from here https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s8ov5sbv4pzx ... TntFa?dl=0 v12.30
Please don't hesitate to PM me if you have any troubles with the link

[theRustyKnife]

Soooo you saying the Signal System was kind ofamess and that im not THAT Stupid =) Still i dont realy get the Difference between the two Signaltypes for Rails.

I understood the difference between them by thinking about it like this:
Normal: only lets the train pass when the next block is free
Chain: only lets the train pass when the next block is free AND the train can also leave the block (the exit signal is green)
That means that a train can never get stuck in a block following a chain signal.
Hope this helps
TRK

[Mishka]

Hallo, read a lot of welcomes here so I've decided to say "hi"
You know I am on a "testing period" - nothing is certain yet, but I'm doing my best.
It is great to be part of Wube and I hope I succeed, so that everyone here could fully concentrate only at what they want - the game and community.
Thanks for the warm welcome and I hope you'll keep enjoying the game.