Friday Facts #129 - The late game

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safan
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by safan »

my suggestions:

1. rework the world generator so it more resembles rso. Bigger ore patches, further away
2. provide mining robots. They will make setting up new mines a lot easier.
3. provide z-levels. Going underground for more ore will make things interesting again
4. make the seas interesting: ofshore oil platforms, cargo boats, water monsters
5. infinite research can be a thing, but i would like to have other resource sinks. I'm still fan of trading stuff for score/currency.

Vin
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by Vin »

pib wrote:
Vin wrote:A) You have a scenario where infinite research makes part of the game irrelevant. In the case of infinite turret research, the player will eventually reach a point where the entire combat part of the game is easy and meaningless, removing that type of play as an option in megabases..
To show why this isn't true if the cost increases exponentially, let me work out the solution: Eventually you will get to research numbers that are basically impossible to get to - the formula will make it so a certain level would take more atoms than the universe. Suppose we decide this ridiculously impossible target research level will be level 100. There is nothing saying someone can't get to 100 or even 101, but it will not happen because we are mortal.

Now take a laser turret. Say it does 100 base damage and at level 100 it would do 200 base damage. Each level only adds 1. Now, if you hit level 100, the turret is only twice as good as before. But you won't. The exponential equation can be adjusted so the steep part of the slope occurs where you want it. Maybe it is not so hard to get to level 30, maybe 40, maybe even 70. But after that, it would get really difficult to get 1 more level... but hey - it's only a "bit" more than before. And you don't just have laser turrets in front of you, there are maybe 20 different choices of infinite research to pursue. You can make the math work so you will basically always have something available that feel like it is within reach and provides an upgrade, but also make it so no person can get it all.

A good twist would also be to make infinite lines of research take a unique component for the research, so a custom factory module would be needed to switch from one infinite research to the next.
This is scenario B, where the research doesn't feel impactful. Yes, your turret does 1% more damage, but the actual real, observable difference is very small, especially since Factorio doesn't include combat text. You know intellectually it's doing more damage, but it doesn't change gameplay in the slightest bit.

If your researches are impactful, the game has to account for the impact to keep things interesting. If it's not impactful, then it's just another way to count score, in which case I think the production metrics are a much more interesting representation.

Mangledpork
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by Mangledpork »

This was a more minor point of the FFF, but I don't like the idea of increasing cargo wagon capacities. One of the coolest things I've built in my Railworld series is the Megatrain, a 10+ wagon train with at least 2 lead engines and one rear engine, which essentially acts as a portable fortress-builder around the small sea my factory is built beside. Only a select few custom-built stations can handle it and it's arrival in an outpost is a major event. I feel like the impact of the thing would be greatly diminished if you could fit that sort of capacity in something half the size.
Not only that, but it would mean that my entire factory would run of trains with only single cargo wagons, which just doesn't seem right.
Meanwhile in the real world there are trains with half a dozen engines and multiple hundreds of cargo wagons running around, and it's already impossible to justify something of that immense size in Factorio!
It sounds to me like you just wanted to shift your ore faster, and if you can't be persuaded otherwise, then perhaps an alternate ore wagon is in order? Can only hold the 4 ores (one at once), extra capacity (if you insist), and it can be open-topped for a quick visual indicator of what is in it and how full it is.

Oh, and liquid cargo wagons isn't enough! We need at least 2 kinds of train (slower steam power, faster oil power) and guard vans (radar wagons?), passenger cars (roboport wagons?), turret cars (or even better, cars with like a 6x2 building space for options with turrets), vehicle carrying wagons...
The options aren't only great for the aesthetic, they can be made to have proper in-game uses!

onebit
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by onebit »

Ore fields must not be infinite like oil wells, because it is desirable to mine them out completely and expand the base over them.

pib
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by pib »

Vin wrote:
pib wrote:
Vin wrote: This is scenario B, where the research doesn't feel impactful. Yes, your turret does 1% more damage, but the actual real, observable difference is very small, especially since Factorio doesn't include combat text. You know intellectually it's doing more damage, but it doesn't change gameplay in the slightest bit.

If your researches are impactful, the game has to account for the impact to keep things interesting. If it's not impactful, then it's just another way to count score, in which case I think the production metrics are a much more interesting representation.
I agree with you here, and I kind of wished I didn't post my first response to you after I sent it...

But I think on a long enough timeframe, the impactful events/technologies probably have to cease happening though. Your motivation to continue usually will become to build either bigger or more creatively depending on who you are. And if you are the kind of person who likes to build big, you need a big sink. The experience of designing the factory capable of reaching that next 1% is what provides enjoyment; at some point there will be no new tech to obtain, or it doesn't help you much to improve that tech further.

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Animar
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by Animar »

Well devinitly a big + for the Vanilla RSO material world gen. But infinite Ores sounds lame, rso does have an option for that and yes I played it once in this mode and it wasen't very entertaining at all. The whole dirty ore stuff ins't my taste either, it could lead to some interresting builds but it could also become rather tedious. The infinite research options on the other hand does seem to bring a lot of additional gameplay hours into the late game. Something to do that is more rewarding than launching countless useless rockets into the sky. But as some have already mentioned they should be implemented with care. Basicaly you will be overpoered at some time wich is the point in Infinite researchs but that shouldn't happen to quickly.
It would at least change my gameplay to play a world for more then 300 hours, witch I have several off, bevore I ditch them for a new one because there is nothing left to do besides lamo rocket launches.

I would be suprised if get the tanker wagon with the next release, that thing was announced since the oil itself came around, at least there is a mod that fills that gap.

PS: Don't change the cargo wagon size it's fine how it is.

pib
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by pib »

With respect to cargo trains, I think the are the right size. The current sizes are sufficient to allow significant transfer over time and it is very challenging to reach a throughput or distance where you would be able to deplete the cargo from a train in less than the time it takes to send the train back to supply station, fill up, and return. And then you can add more trains or use more cars, which is fun.

The only time the train seems small is when I am manually filling them up myself (usually transferring from a chest), as oppose to when they are on automatic. I wouldn't mind for the player themselves to have more inventory space to make it easier to pick up chests (there was a forklift idea recently suggested that is neat). Or research for larger player inventory maybe.

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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by Joefesok »

Maybe, later on in the game's development, there could be some form of method for very large scale mining- like an autofill function for an oil patch or a prospecting field operated by machines you "plug" into the field?

However, having non-infinite ores creates the problem that you eventually run out of materials in a world. Most users won't ever see it, but some will. This'll probably be fixed at some point by something like, say, a recycling center and dropped loot from each item destroyed, but for now it's something of an issue.

As for cargo trains, as with others, I think they are the right inventory size, since "fill to capacity" is going to be added soon anyway.

betu
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by betu »

Great ideas and future improvements, excellent game from start to finish, I am anxious to download the version 0.13! :D

lancar
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by lancar »

I was actually never bothered by the capacity of the train wagons.
Even in the very late game, their capacity was more than enough for a resource train with 3 wagons hauling ore from a mining base. Sure, higher capacity would mean shorter trains and thus easier to build train stations but look at it like this: would a train station servicing trains with only 1-2 wagons look good?

Personally, I love the look of lots of huge cumbersome trains making their way into a gigantic multi-track station. If the same job could be done with less wagons some of that magic would be lost.
The only way I see this work is if we got several more types of wagons to compete for the space on the track, and I really do mean several. Just the fluid tanker won't be enough, I'm afraid, as all it does is replace the cargo wagons on oil-bearing trains.

In fact, I think the best wagon would be one you could build on by yourself. A moving, customizable platform.
Granted, I know that will never happen due to all the building sprites being incompatible with a non-static grid like that, but it's nice to dream :)

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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by Hopek »

Just a nice touch. Make the steam coming from the steam machine white compared to every other smoke. Also the mining idea is amazing, keep up the good work.

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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by deemer »

hipscumbag wrote:
As an alternative fix for [not-smooth research progression from green to blue tier], I wonder if Advanced Oil Processing might not belong to green tier? I always find myself beelining it so that I don't waste petroleum gas, which is always in short supply once I hit blue beakers. Having oil cracking in the earlier tier might help smooth the progression from green to blue. Just brainstorming!
This. I do the same thing: When I have oil processing, I set up one refinery with two tanks for heavy and light oil and use it to make enough red circuits and batteries just to research advanced oil processing. Then I tear it all down and set up a real oil facility.

Also, thank you devs for hosting such great discussion with these Friday Facts posts! I believe wading through the many pages of opinions and suggestions is the most fertile ground you could hope for to get all the ideas and concerns with a change fleshed out while you are still designing it. It should contribute significantly to making an awesome game that much more awesome, and preventing undesirable gameplay issues.

torham
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by torham »

The forums sure have became crowded lately... :)

Yes to pretty much all of the points. I cannot thank you enough for thinking about us completionists with the research! I am precisely the guy that would go into great trouble researching every last technology, just because its there. I have been doing this since the days of Master of Orion, where I would only finish the game after terraforming ALL of the planets on the map into Gaia quality.

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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by Peppe »

I never liked mines running out, so i have been playing with endless-resources mod.

To make it fun/interesting it requires some personal roleplay rules. I don't overlap mines and I installed a trash chest mod that dumps all extra research to the trash.

Instead of trashing science I would prefer an ongoing maintenance or cost for each science you research.

In a world with infinite resource it would be interesting if in order to maintain the current level or progress in research it took progressively more labs working at the same time.

Instead of building the common 5:6:12:1 setup that might only be enough to maintain access to half the tree.


Also in a world of infinite resource you could put downsides to belts... like items get damage/destroyed if they stay on belts too long?

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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by nospacebar14 »

Another idea to add:

What if the rocket launches produced research? "Space research" as it were, like the results of lab experiments being done in space now, represented as a fifth beaker color? And then you could apply it to any of the infinite endgame techs?

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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by necrojo »

On the research problem.
Instead of having infinite levels of research just have one level that goes on infinitely and provides a buff like a module for the entire factory. Since you can only have one research at a time the player will have to choose what buff to research. The faster you research the stronger the buff (with diminishing returns). This will give players a constant resource sink without making it overpowered.

bobucles
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by bobucles »

Giving more resources with distance is a good thing. What about having some infinite ore nodes, just like with oil nodes? As the player expands he can capture a few permanent bits of resource income. It should be nowhere near as effective as regular mining, but it means the player always needs something out there to mine with.

Be VERY careful of requiring water to wash dirty ores. There are map options to have NO water outside the spawn. That could pose a major resource problem unless the player can do some kind of aquifer tapping.

Late game the player can throw rockets into space, but those rockets don't do anything. A space layer is really a full expansion pack worth of stuff, but maybe those rockets could give some bonus on the ground?

Green research happens VERY quickly in factorio and the blue science is very much a wall of stuff to get. I really think that some of the blue requirements should be split off and given to purple science. It's kind of cheap for the last science pack to only need one assembler while everything good goes to blue.

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Connecting Factories entities in real time to the NYSE

Post by brunzenstein »

besides introducing a gold, titanium and diamond mine (useful in industry as well) would give a interesting overview what the factory builds trading value is on the very day - in real time. The rough value of machinery park could also be included.

Also - the rocket should not necessarily get to Moon or Mars but control als a commercial space satellites for industrial and military use which would increase the shares value of the "Factory" on the virtual stock market as well.

So different user builds could be easily and independent compared by evidencing what their portfolios in real street value actually is.

PS: Sorry of the double posting

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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by stormforce770 »

And what about underground mining? Maybe add layers down (like Dwarf Fortress) but only below actual resources (to keep the logistics )

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DethBringa
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Re: Friday Facts #129 - The late game

Post by DethBringa »

Without reading pages of posts (due to idea being fresh in my mind). VERY late game mining idea would be a kind of mining bot (robominer). Like the automated fliers but instead a tracked tank-like (Dune2 Harvester springs to mind) auto-miner. My thoughts here are it would have a scan range of say 5 squares where it can scan for ore or have a base like the roboport (minerport) but solely for this bot and have an ore scan area of 5 squares (linkable like the orange logistics).
The bot would mine the ore till it is full, unload into a minerport (which also works as a charger) and then heads out again mining more ore until it cant find any within the scan range (distance from minerport or distance from robominer).

This way it saves having to move mines as you now have a self movable mine. The balance part here is the build cost (batteries, steel, plastic, blue circuits) and also the limited scan range.

Research could unlock:
- Solar generation so it self charges (no drain on current power network)
- Movement speed
- Carry capacity (maybe initially it is only 6 stacks but you can research 10, 20, 30 so it can stay out mining longer)
- Drill speed (mine ore faster)
- Scan range

Not only does this add something really usable and helpful for end game but also a whole additional tech tree to research.
Last edited by DethBringa on Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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