Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

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UnrealDiego
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by UnrealDiego »

If you want to use the loader with assemblers, why not make an extra tier of assemblers, which are fast and can use the loader, but are only able to produce low-tier items like gears?

silver_26
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by silver_26 »

kovarex wrote:
silver_26 wrote: or / and maby optimization for mega bases... caz im down to 22 Ups / 25 FPS

I think that is more a priority then the loader
Can you provide the save? I will definitely do some optimisations in the spare time.
I don't mean optimisations build / layout wise ....
I mean game wise, share amount of items
the "miles "of full belts, thousands of robots carrying stuff from A to B
multiple trains unloading thousands if items

but sure give me a sec to upload

Marconos
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by Marconos »

New tech tree model looks pretty good.

I'm really not sure where I come down on the loader / unloader item. Seems really powerful and steps on the inserter / inserter stack size bonus. As long as it doesn't interact with any entity beyond train cars and chests it may have a place.

selkathguy
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by selkathguy »

silver_26 wrote: and I agree with selkathguy
Efficient and optimized systems should be a challenge to build, but not tedious. As it stands now the Loader removes all challenge for maximum performance, which the entire point of the game is an optimization puzzle. As a sidenote it robs players of the satisfaction of "i built this" and makes higher throughput factories less impressive, imo
I prefer to have bigger chests like warehouses with ... 30 / 40 or 50 items slots
^This, can we get a 2x2 chest instead? Like a storehouse? Having a 2x2 chest would greatly reduce the amount of weird inserter relaying to shift items over one cell to get them into an additional building or belt. Solves a lot of weird issues.

snds
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by snds »

I'm not sure that focusing on factory optimizations is a great idea moving forward, at least for the next few releases. I'd prefer to see things like bridges (for water crossings) and either overground or underground walkways to get past things like pipes and avoid being stuck on an isolated island due to the map seed. Additionally, some logic to avoid users being stuck on small mini islands or islands too small to create a factory on when generating seeds would be useful, moreso than these loaders.

As many people have said, loaders would have to be late game and if were allowed early game it would deprecate a lot of the more interesting factory builds. If anything, working to make more complex systems like the smart logistics system (for those of us that aren't math minded, etc.) but that's me being selfish. The game is amazing as is, even if I don't use the logic system. What needs to happen next are quality of life issues while navigating and evaluating your factory(ies).

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Nic
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by Nic »

Hi all,

have you ever tried to arrange the tech-tree as "circle" with the "Rocket Silo" in the middle? Maybe that helps to arrange all the technologies without (or with the fewest) lines crossing.

I would not like to see the "Loader", it would make most of the things I like about the game a thing of the past.
I am Nic and I love to play games - the more unique the game concept is, the more I am up to buy a game and support the developers with my ideas.
If you want to watch my gameplay videos you do find them on YouTube: http://fwd.nicmd.de/ytng

Boogalo
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by Boogalo »

selkathguy wrote:
silver_26 wrote: and I agree with selkathguy
Efficient and optimized systems should be a challenge to build, but not tedious. As it stands now the Loader removes all challenge for maximum performance, which the entire point of the game is an optimization puzzle. As a sidenote it robs players of the satisfaction of "i built this" and makes higher throughput factories less impressive, imo
I prefer to have bigger chests like warehouses with ... 30 / 40 or 50 items slots
^This, can we get a 2x2 chest instead? Like a storehouse? Having a 2x2 chest would greatly reduce the amount of weird inserter relaying to shift items over one cell to get them into an additional building or belt. Solves a lot of weird issues.

Eh, a big fun point of factorio is fidgety setups and making them more efficient or even more fidgety and still working. That issue can be solved a vast majority of the time by repositioning buildings or shifting a belt. A big chest solves a [problem1] in an easy way just like loaders would solve [problem2] and removes complexity of setups.

I like the idea of the loader only being for input, but have trouble saying no to any extra pieces we get to play with. If it feels super overpowered endgame, its easy enough to just not use them in your factory.

sillyfly
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by sillyfly »

DanGio wrote:maybe huge power consumption, or even, could consume lubricant in order to work ?
I like the idea of having the loader require lubricant for operation! This could add a layer of complexity (how do I route the lubricant over here?), provide another use for lubricant (as it is, heavy oil is hardly used at all), and add cost to the loader, making it less over-powered. It could either stop completely, or maybe just slow down to a crawl, if not provided with lubricant.

Edit: Another benefit of having it require oil is allowing non-assembling entities to consume resource for operation, which will open the door to interesting modding possibilities. But I don't know - maybe this is already possible with the current version of the game?

DDR
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by DDR »

My 2¢ is that it would be really good as a booster for the train → belt transfer. (Say, hopper-style unloader?) Right now, getting stuff from a long-haul train into the factory requires many chests and belts - very repetitive. (Although it is a bit better with construction robots, I usually have to hand-wire most of the load balancers due to weird space/spacing or something.)

Another possibility, for general use, would be to have only the loader component. Like vanatteveldt pictured, it would be dropper sort of thing.

One of the concerns I have, and this might not be fair, is that it's really rewarding to watch the arms wave around. They're one of the more expressive motions in the game, I think, and I myself really like having them in sync too. :3

One variation might be to have a hopper/dropper that takes from only one lane of a belt. Sort of a T-junction sort of thing, so say the left lane would continue onward and the right lane would get deposited in or taken from the chest. I rather enjoy the belt-balancing game, especially since it's pretty ignorable and really quick to implement a crappy solution - one splitter and an extra three belts, and there we go.



p.s. One of the main reasons I play a game is to learn it. Once "I think I see how this is gonna play out" I generally stop. Factorio is one of the few which has literally kept me hooked from start to end, for multiple playthroughs. (My friends got a hold of a picture of me in a suit, once, and made a meme that I was a Mormon preaching Factorio.) But anyway, I didn't make too much use of the trains overall as they were a lot harder to lay down (at least until FARL, which imo holy smokes should be core content) and they took a lot of really fiddly logic with chests and loaders and fuel. It's often significantly faster to just lay down a dead-simple conveyor belt and then go off and do something while waiting for the goods to roll in - I don't have to deal with loader chest balancing, train scheduling/routing, unloader chest balancing, and the inevitable stalls as trains get in each other's way.

In Factorio, I am usually limited by my own time. I have the resources of the gods, but only one person to channel them through. This rather precludes trains as an economic option… but I like trains, so I use them anyway. :D

torham
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by torham »

I am going to go with No for the loader. I think its too OP, and the same functionality can be achieved with inserters. If at all implemented, I would prefer it to be a late game tech, deep in the tech tree, and expensive ( for example costing several lvl 2 speed modules to produce).

silver_26
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by silver_26 »

@ kovarex

I do would like a new type of radar for long train tracks to see where your trains are instead of placing
toms of " normal " radars along the track
by kovarex » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:25 pm

silver_26 wrote:
or / and maby optimization for mega bases... caz im down to 22 Ups / 25 FPS

I think that is more a priority then the loader
Can you provide the save? I will definitely do some optimisations in the spare time.
here is the save file
when I fight bitters my fps goes down to 15 or something like that....
and when I use FARL to build new track ( through woods ) my FPS goes down to 8 or something...

http://www.filedropper.com/megabasebysilver26

ps my base is TURN OFF... the green circuits and red / blue circuits and Steel there are splitters turned the wrong way...
to Stop production of rockets ( had power issues )

do give me a feed back please :)
Last edited by silver_26 on Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

silver_26
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by silver_26 »

Boogalo wrote:
selkathguy wrote:
silver_26 wrote: and I agree with selkathguy
Efficient and optimized systems should be a challenge to build, but not tedious. As it stands now the Loader removes all challenge for maximum performance, which the entire point of the game is an optimization puzzle. As a sidenote it robs players of the satisfaction of "i built this" and makes higher throughput factories less impressive, imo
I prefer to have bigger chests like warehouses with ... 30 / 40 or 50 items slots
^This, can we get a 2x2 chest instead? Like a storehouse? Having a 2x2 chest would greatly reduce the amount of weird inserter relaying to shift items over one cell to get them into an additional building or belt. Solves a lot of weird issues.

Eh, a big fun point of factorio is fidgety setups and making them more efficient or even more fidgety and still working. That issue can be solved a vast majority of the time by repositioning buildings or shifting a belt. A big chest solves a [problem1] in an easy way just like loaders would solve [problem2] and removes complexity of setups.

I like the idea of the loader only being for input, but have trouble saying no to any extra pieces we get to play with. If it feels super overpowered endgame, its easy enough to just not use them in your factory.

isn't that the hole point of the game... to find out the complexity of setups and layout of buildings ?
and I think "loader" remove some fun and complexity of the game ( that my opinion )

starholme
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by starholme »

I'm personally a big fan of the 'hopper' idea. Place a hopper over a belt, hopper can hold up to the inserter stack size bonus, will fill any empty belt spaces.

So you still get/need to use inserters, but the stack bonus becomes more useful. Have the hopper a single item that can be placed on any speed belt.

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madpav3l
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by madpav3l »

silver_26 wrote: I do would like a new type of radar for long train tracks to see where your trains are instead of placing
toms of " normal " radars along the track
There is a mod which adds radar that does exactly what you asked.
Train tracker 1.0.0 viewtopic.php?f=92&t=18368
Last edited by madpav3l on Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

torham
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by torham »

DDR wrote: One of the concerns I have, and this might not be fair, is that it's really rewarding to watch the arms wave around. They're one of the more expressive motions in the game, I think, and I myself really like having them in sync too. :3
This. Sometimes I just stop and watch the machines work, there is something relaxing about it :) You would have to make the loader animated, like the assembly machines are, with bits moving around...

Peter34
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by Peter34 »

I don't like the Loader thingie. I do think it's overpowered, and it's not genuinely needed.

The only way to make it less overpowered, that is to balance it as much as it can be balanced, is to make is an item that is both very late game and is very expensive to make.

Very late game means it'll cost lots of Blue and Purple Magic Science Potions to make, and very expensive means we're talking Lube and Red Circuits, and if possible a few Blue Circuits too, and some Batteries, and that's one of those cases where immersion is at odds with game balance, because it's not really all that realistic for a Loader to require those kinds of mats - a fair bit of Steel, sure, and maybe a Red Circuit or two in addition to an arbitrarily large number of Greens and Gear Wheels. But having it cost a lot of high-value components isn't realistic.

So thumbs down from me.

silver_26
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by silver_26 »

madpav3l wrote:
silver_26 wrote: I do would like a new type of radar for long train tracks to see where your trains are instead of placing
toms of " normal " radars along the track
There is a mod which adds radar that does exactly what you asked.
Train tracker 1.0.0 viewtopic.php?f=92&t=18368
perhaps but does more mods help the game ?
I would like some mods to become stock...
like color coding and this radar thing...
and possibly more mods....

Peter34
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by Peter34 »

starholme wrote:I'm personally a big fan of the 'hopper' idea. Place a hopper over a belt, hopper can hold up to the inserter stack size bonus, will fill any empty belt spaces.

So you still get/need to use inserters, but the stack bonus becomes more useful. Have the hopper a single item that can be placed on any speed belt.
I like this idea a lot more than the Loader!

Hexicube
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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by Hexicube »

I think that the loader, as the name implies, should only be allowed to feed items into a container (including train carriages, assemblers, furnaces, etc.) and not pull from one, and should not have any method of filtering or disabling them (they're basically a belt piece). That way, inserters maintain their usefulness for moving items from containers (you can't pull from containers any other way) and for sorting, but loaders remain useful for high throughput into storage (ore into chests to later be smelted) which inserters are actually lacking right now without using several (especially for faster belts).

Care needs to be taken with an addition like this, in its current state it would obsolete inserters late-game; the only incentives to not use one would be space (an extra tile for each one is nothing) and cost (you'd be swimming in ores), and the increased throughput would massively outweigh that.

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Re: Friday Facts #128 - Back down to earth

Post by Vornicus »

I like the loader only if it looks like it picks up the chest and shakes it to get things out.

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