Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Regular reports on Factorio development.
User avatar
Proxy
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:10 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Proxy »

i thought you could just Invite Friends via Steam into your World... one to one like in Terraria 1.3.
but, i just hope you're gonna use this Steam Feature in the Future. :D
Let's just wait til the Age of Iron Stars

User avatar
Drury
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 715
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Drury »

cpy wrote:Will game automatically download mods from server that is trying to join if client is missing some? For people that use custom mods that can't be downloaded anywhere?
OpenTTD ran into an issue with this. If you download random mods straight from the other client, that's a possible copyright infringement since that type of distribution is illegal - you are free to download the mods, but only with author's consent, which basically means you can only download from the place the author uploaded them.

Instead OpenTTD got BaNaNaS, a cloud system for mod creators integrated straight into the game. You can use it to upload your mods and download mods within the game, and when you join a game without the mods required, you can ask the game to search and download them off of BaNaNaS. Thing is, you can't download straight from other clients due to said copyright issues, only from BaNaNaS because that's where the original authors upload them.
Image

keyboardhack
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:43 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by keyboardhack »

sillyfly wrote:Nice :)

One thing that is missing from the screen, which I think is a must for a game like Factorio, is (average) ping to server. You wouldn't want to connect to a server too far away from you, and have constant lags :)
Maybe instead of ping it should include a something indicating if your ping to the server is higher than the servers latency hiding.
Average UPS of the map would be nice as someone probably wouldn't join a 30min old map with 20 UPS.
Waste of bytes : P

ratchetfreak
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 944
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 12:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by ratchetfreak »

Klonan wrote:I think you're forgetting that this is a piece of work that must have taken hundreds of hours to put together, countless nights and time searching compiling and disseminating the game and its mechanics so for the communities benefit. Xterminator has already contributed so much to this community, asking nothing in return, and now for this project he wants to ask for a small amount to cover his time and effort.

I don't think its fair in the slightest to say it 'seems like a rip-off' when it's a really nice guide (which i'm assuming you haven't actually read or looked at) and the fact that a portion of each sale goes back to the factorio devs shows that this isn't about greed or trying to mislead people into parting with their money, but to help the game and the community.
Then he should reevaluate the price. Also a "portion" of each sale... $0.01 per sale is also a "portion" leaving him free to pocket the remainder of the $4.94 pre-tax.

If the guide was part of the purchase-tier rewards and some of the money flows to Xterm as compensation then I wouldn't have a problem with that.

As is it's a $5 for a digital strategy guide for a $15-$20 indy game that has 100k sales. The demand just isn't there to justify that price IMO.

Divran
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Divran »

Owing to the great effort of all the developers, the open bugs count at the forums is at unbelievable ... wait for it =) ... 3 items.
allow me to add one right now :)
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =7&t=18334

Rwn
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:43 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Rwn »

ratchetfreak wrote:Then he should reevaluate the price. Also a "portion" of each sale... $0.01 per sale is also a "portion" leaving him free to pocket the remainder of the $4.94 pre-tax.

If the guide was part of the purchase-tier rewards and some of the money flows to Xterm as compensation then I wouldn't have a problem with that.

As is it's a $5 for a digital strategy guide for a $15-$20 indy game that has 100k sales. The demand just isn't there to justify that price IMO.
Well then that's Xterm's problem isn't it? I mean, noone is forcing you to purchase that book (especially as you're probably an experienced Factorio player with no need for a strategy guide) if you find the price too high and noone forced Wube to accept a deal with Xterm (so if they did, they found a mutually satisfying agreement), so I'm not sure why you or other people have a problem with that, it's not like you'd have gained anything if he'd never published it, and some people do appreciate comprehensive well-written guides instead of youtube videos or wikis.

User avatar
aRatNamedSammy
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:26 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by aRatNamedSammy »

if you translate that guide, i buy....

i dont like using and other third party program just to connect on multi.. always prefer to have it inside the game :lol: ..so waiting for it :D ..my nefew too, he need some advice on his "messy" base :lol: haha!!
Teeth for Two (so sorry my bad english)

User avatar
Kewlhotrod
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Kewlhotrod »

marketing a third party "ebook" that took infomation from the community and wiki for free and put it into a product for money. not so much friday facts and more like fridays advertising.

User avatar
Xterminator
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 976
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Xterminator »

Kewlhotrod wrote:marketing a third party "ebook" that took infomation from the community and wiki for free and put it into a product for money. not so much friday facts and more like fridays advertising.
I think you are misunderstanding how the guide was made and what it contains. Probably 95% of the information in the guide came from my head and my experience playing the game. It isn't like I went to all these wiki pages and forum thread and copy/pasted the info in there in a few hours and called it done.

I don't see how this is any different than paying for a skin in a game or the ability to fly in a Minecraft server, etc.
I can promise you, my goal with creating this guide was not a "get rich quick scheme" or "easy money grab". The only reason I'm charging anything for it is to give people another way to support the game, and for little compensation for the immense amount of time, and some expenses I put into it.

I'm not trying to "justify" that I'm right or your wrong, but I jut want to try and explain why it is this way and my intentions.

This guide is a product just like the game or a normal ebook or printed book. Effort went into it, some money went into it, just like anything else you pay for. I'm honestly pretty baffled by the amount of discontent with it.

Anyway, I just thought I would throw my thoughts and perspective into the pile for whatever it's worth. The guide is there for anyone who wants it, I'm not going around begging people to buy it. I just hope it can help some players and I can improve on it in the future to make it even better.
Image Image Image

Peppe
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Peppe »

Xterminator wrote:
Kewlhotrod wrote:marketing a third party "ebook" that took infomation from the community and wiki for free and put it into a product for money. not so much friday facts and more like fridays advertising.
I think you are misunderstanding how the guide was made and what it contains. Probably 95% of the information in the guide came from my head and my experience playing the game. It isn't like I went to all these wiki pages and forum thread and copy/pasted the info in there in a few hours and called it done.

I don't see how this is any different than paying for a skin in a game or the ability to fly in a Minecraft server, etc.
I can promise you, my goal with creating this guide was not a "get rich quick scheme" or "easy money grab". The only reason I'm charging anything for it is to give people another way to support the game, and for little compensation for the immense amount of time, and some expenses I put into it.

I'm not trying to "justify" that I'm right or your wrong, but I jut want to try and explain why it is this way and my intentions.

This guide is a product just like the game or a normal ebook or printed book. Effort went into it, some money went into it, just like anything else you pay for. I'm honestly pretty baffled by the amount of discontent with it.

Anyway, I just thought I would throw my thoughts and perspective into the pile for whatever it's worth. The guide is there for anyone who wants it, I'm not going around begging people to buy it. I just hope it can help some players and I can improve on it in the future to make it even better.
You might specify what portion will go to the devs. They get 50% of the gross after paypal feels? You mentioned profit in the video no this. They get 50% of the profit? -- we talking Hollywood style profit sharing where you show no profit? Don't know how transparent you care to be on it. Doubtful you have anything signed/enforceable, so just your word that you will do this giveback.


As others commented weird that you put effort into this format vs a collaborative format like the game's wiki, google doc, or forum posts.

You could use some transparency on what exactly "a portion" is that will make it's way back to the devs and how that will be accounted.

For all the effort to setup and run a standalone site and protect a PDF you could have used public/free hosting and made the same PDF like countless other game guides that community authors have put together over the years.

Maybe this is the is a good idea and you will make money for you and the devs, but it does not really smell right. If you would not have put together and released the guide for free then you probably should not have put it together at all.

Uristqwerty
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 8:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Uristqwerty »

Xterminator wrote:
Kewlhotrod wrote:marketing a third party "ebook" that took infomation from the community and wiki for free and put it into a product for money. not so much friday facts and more like fridays advertising.
I think you are misunderstanding how the guide was made and what it contains. Probably 95% of the information in the guide came from my head and my experience playing the game. It isn't like I went to all these wiki pages and forum thread and copy/pasted the info in there in a few hours and called it done.

I don't see how this is any different than paying for a skin in a game or the ability to fly in a Minecraft server, etc.
I can promise you, my goal with creating this guide was not a "get rich quick scheme" or "easy money grab". The only reason I'm charging anything for it is to give people another way to support the game, and for little compensation for the immense amount of time, and some expenses I put into it.

I'm not trying to "justify" that I'm right or your wrong, but I jut want to try and explain why it is this way and my intentions.

This guide is a product just like the game or a normal ebook or printed book. Effort went into it, some money went into it, just like anything else you pay for. I'm honestly pretty baffled by the amount of discontent with it.

Anyway, I just thought I would throw my thoughts and perspective into the pile for whatever it's worth. The guide is there for anyone who wants it, I'm not going around begging people to buy it. I just hope it can help some players and I can improve on it in the future to make it even better.
Paying to fly on a Minecraft server would be a poor example, as servers offering gameplay-affecting rewards for money has been technically disallowed for a few years, though enforcement has been lacking.

On the other hand, I think I've seen literal books about building things in Minecraft, prominently displayed in front of a bookstore in Canada, so something digitally available, for a significantly lower cost, with updates, and based mostly on original research? There is precedent for far worse, so I hope this one is successful.

User avatar
Align
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Align »

The list of mods can get very long for some cases, so perhaps that should be under a separate tab? Or at least below the other game details (tags & playernames).
I'm hoping it'll be possible to filter for servers that have/don't have a given mod, too

Zeblote
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 972
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:55 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Zeblote »

You should just integrate the wiki more. Players aren't using it because they don't know that it exists/are too lazy to search.

Don't know what something does? Click the help button and it opens the matching wiki page right in the game!
Of course this would require keeping all information in the wiki up to date and 100% correct or you'll confuse players more.

ratchetfreak
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 944
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 12:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by ratchetfreak »

Zeblote wrote:You should just integrate the wiki more. Players aren't using it because they don't know that it exists/are too lazy to search.
^exactly

Having that guide to update decreases your incentive to actually work on the wiki (and it needs work)

Also there is a donate link on the main page for if you want to give money to the devs. No need for the overpriced guide

Nemoricus
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:48 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Nemoricus »

Having a well-researched guide to Factorio is certainly a good thing, given how complex the game is and how non-inuitive many of its components can be. Letting a content creator charge for their work is also a good thing, since time and effort are not free. Paying for strategy guides is also not a new thing, so paying for an online guide is not without precedent.

That said, there are two things about this that give me pause:

1. The game is under heavy development, and the guide could easily lose currency. I know that the author has pledged to update the guide along with the game, but this depends on them making the time and effort to do so. Will they have enough of both to keep the guide updated, say, a year from now?

Admittedly, at less than $5, 'you get what you pay for' should be at the forefront of people's minds. To me, it certainly isn't enough to insist on a guarantee of further updates.

2. It may seem like a reason for the developers to let in-game documentation and tutorials go without updates. I've been following Factorio long enough to know that this isn't true, for the simple fact that developing gameplay has always been a much higher priority for them. Considering the time and effort it takes to develop good tutorials and documentation to begin with, let alone ensure their currency and accuracy, that seems fairly reasonable to me.

However, what does concern me is the impression that it would give new users of the game. "Hey, we know our in-game documentation isn't quite up to par, so if you want something better, pay extra!" Not a good message to be sending, and the fact that it would be paying for the work of someone separate from the development team would likely be lost on them.

My reservations aside, as soon as I have my new credit card, I intend to purchase a copy of the guide so that I can evaluate it properly. I would also like to encourage further development of the guide and continued updates, since this does look like a very complete set of documentation for the game.

User avatar
SHiRKiT
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 691
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by SHiRKiT »

http://us2.factorio.com/assets//img/blo ... es-gui.jpg

I'm shown this and it's also offline. Can't see the picture.

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 10686
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by ssilk »

keyboardhack wrote:
sillyfly wrote:Nice :)

One thing that is missing from the screen, which I think is a must for a game like Factorio, is (average) ping to server. You wouldn't want to connect to a server too far away from you, and have constant lags :)
Maybe instead of ping it should include a something indicating if your ping to the server is higher than the servers latency hiding.
Average UPS of the map would be nice as someone probably wouldn't join a 30min old map with 20 UPS.
Hm. Isn't the server ping is useless, cause the game is P2P? I want to know the ping of the slowest connection, including myself.

Hmmm. For the first version it would be useful to have a number of indicators (ping, ups, average ping, average ups, transfer-rate, time played etc.) to learn, what kind of measures are relevant in which situation.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

CrushedIce
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:52 am
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by CrushedIce »

ssilk wrote:
keyboardhack wrote:
sillyfly wrote:Nice :)

One thing that is missing from the screen, which I think is a must for a game like Factorio, is (average) ping to server. You wouldn't want to connect to a server too far away from you, and have constant lags :)
Maybe instead of ping it should include a something indicating if your ping to the server is higher than the servers latency hiding.
Average UPS of the map would be nice as someone probably wouldn't join a 30min old map with 20 UPS.
Hm. Isn't the server ping is useless, cause the game is P2P? I want to know the ping of the slowest connection, including myself.

Hmmm. For the first version it would be useful to have a number of indicators (ping, ups, average ping, average ups, transfer-rate, time played etc.) to learn, what kind of measures are relevant in which situation.
You're right, but if i remember correctly the "use peer to peer" option in the multiplayer dialog is disabled by default :)
I think the ping of the slowest connection would only be needed, if this option is changed by the host.

Marconos
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by Marconos »

Strategy guide preview looks pretty good Xterminator. Please ignore all the "OMG he's trying to make a living" posts. Being in my mid 40's and understanding how much time and effort it would take to put something like that together, more power to you. Keep up the great work, just keep it up to date as things change.

As for 12.20 being stable, that's awesome ... what's the release date for 0.13 :)

(Side note: My company bills for over $150 / HOUR ... yes that's per hour, just to talk to us, $4 for his work is well worth it, and honestly it's a steal)

slpwnd
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

Post by slpwnd »

Gandalf wrote:Yay FFF!

More importantly though, there are two features the multi-player games browser definitely needs:
  • The server name filter input always visible (not behind some tab)
  • A favorite servers list!!
There are many more things that can be added to improve it, but from my experience the name filter and favs list are the most important (and really the only) features I use in these types of server lists.
I am still thinking about how to solve the game viewing details and searching / filtering from the UI perspective. At the moment it is in a different tab because there are other switches as well (Lan vs. Internet, Mods or Vanilla, Password protected or public and more might be coming).

Favorite servers list sounds like a good idea.
sillyfly wrote: One thing that is missing from the screen, which I think is a must for a game like Factorio, is (average) ping to server. You wouldn't want to connect to a server too far away from you, and have constant lags :)
On the TODO list.

Crushedice wrote: I think that wouldn't be too difficult to implement. For example the game could be paused by default after loading and then check whether the player who tries to join has a save with the same checksum.
Also on our TODO list. Blue cube has been doing some general work on speeding up the initial map transfer.
Vile wrote:Another thing that would be a good idea to add to the matching screen: how far along the server is. If I'm looking for a brand new server to start fresh, I would hate to have to download each map until I found one by luck. Maybe a map size or current research completion would work for this.
At the moment there is the time in the game for this.
Nemoricus wrote: 2. It may seem like a reason for the developers to let in-game documentation and tutorials go without updates. I've been following Factorio long enough to know that this isn't true, for the simple fact that developing gameplay has always been a much higher priority for them. Considering the time and effort it takes to develop good tutorials and documentation to begin with, let alone ensure their currency and accuracy, that seems fairly reasonable to me.

However, what does concern me is the impression that it would give new users of the game. "Hey, we know our in-game documentation isn't quite up to par, so if you want something better, pay extra!" Not a good message to be sending, and the fact that it would be paying for the work of someone separate from the development team would likely be lost on them.
We have just had a chat with kovarex about the need to make a good set of in-game minitutorials that allow the user to explore game concepts (and how the game is controlled) separately :)

Post Reply

Return to “News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users