Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Regular reports on Factorio development.
bar10dr
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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by bar10dr »

I've had so much fun with this game for so long for so little money, so if you want to make the space platform thing a DLC then I'm behind that. I'd be willing to pay for that without even questioning it. Just make sure it fits into the lore and end-game of the finished game.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by topforce »

Shame about space part, was looking forward to it, but I suppose the multiplayer is gigantic time sink to implement and slows down new feature development.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by l4m3r »

For me is must say Factorio is a nice Game but it have its Faults.
One of them is that the Endgame is a bit Boring the Aliens have no Chance against Laser Turrets ......
To take off the Space System after you Promise you release it is a Huge Step backwards!

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-root
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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by -root »

I am over the moon (excuse the pun) that the space platform has been dropped!

I believe that the space platform was going to add nothing to the game itself. The game as it sits right now should be taken as functionally complete. Sure, it needs some polish, but really the satellite launch should be the last step. All it requires is a tweak in the story.
While journeying to a distant planet to prepare it for human colonization, your ship is shot down and you crash land. You must fight to survive, you must build a factory to create a satellite to send a message to home to let them know you are still live.
Which then sets up Factorio 2:
First you survived the alien planet, and now you're going back. As the only person in the universe with experience on the alien planet, you're leading the colonization effort and will be paving the way for humans to permanently colonize the planet
Suddenly, you're having to build houses, roads, cities (or at least provide the materials for such). You could even have humans are "Items" where your space platform (where the ships that bring them from earth to the planet dock) has to be able to handle the capacity of people moving through the station.

Sign me up, I'm preordering that shit right now.

On the whole, I think this shows an extremely mature choice by the devs. Moving it to an expansion or sequel is a great move. This change also means that they can now focus more on giving polish to the game we've already got. I'm really looking forward to revamped battle mechanics and expanded circuit conditions.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by pib »

I'm disappointed about the removal of the space platform plans, but I find it understandable.

Still, for a lot less work, I would like to have sinks to keep the factories running. The saddest moment of a mod-free play through is when you finally finish all the research objectives, because pumping out all the science things is basically the most interesting thing to do up until that point. Then you get the the point where you can't spend those things anymore, and so you don't know what do. I had hoped that the space platform idea would help to find more sinks.

The rockets make a good sink, but it requires somewhat different facilities to pump them out, so you have a bunch of infrastructure that doesn't help.

Perhaps it might be nice to be able to fill up rockets with whatever you want like most other containers, and then send them to outer space and get some kind of score for doing so - maybe just a little slider showing how "happy" people are that is based on the rate of materials you send to space. Maybe if you don't send a single rocket for 30 minutes they become completely unhappy with you, but if you are able to send 5 fully loaded rockets in that time, they will love you. This would give you something to do with science packs when you have nothing to research. Even if they are not the most valuable thing you could be producing, it would give you a reason to keep pumping out science packs until you got around to dismantling things.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by indjev99 »

pib wrote:I'm disappointed about the removal of the space platform plans, but I find it understandable.

Still, for a lot less work, I would like to have sinks to keep the factories running. The saddest moment of a mod-free play through is when you finally finish all the research objectives, because pumping out all the science things is basically the most interesting thing to do up until that point. Then you get the the point where you can't spend those things anymore, and so you don't know what do. I had hoped that the space platform idea would help to find more sinks.

The rockets make a good sink, but it requires somewhat different facilities to pump them out, so you have a bunch of infrastructure that doesn't help.

Perhaps it might be nice to be able to fill up rockets with whatever you want like most other containers, and then send them to outer space and get some kind of score for doing so - maybe just a little slider showing how "happy" people are that is based on the rate of materials you send to space. Maybe if you don't send a single rocket for 30 minutes they become completely unhappy with you, but if you are able to send 5 fully loaded rockets in that time, they will love you. This would give you something to do with science packs when you have nothing to research. Even if they are not the most valuable thing you could be producing, it would give you a reason to keep pumping out science packs until you got around to dismantling things.
Some time ago I posted a solution to the problem you are describing, here is a link to the topic: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=10052

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by Gouada »

bobingabout wrote:I noticed that the Fluid extention (Fluids as fuels, fluid train wagon etc) isn't on that todo list, I've been waiting for that since I first saw it on the expected list back when 0.10 was new.
I actually don't know how to feel about that one... Having tank trains makes more sense but I like the challenge of having to manage barrels. However if tank trains are added, it would make barrels (almost) useless. What do you guys think?
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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by MeduSalem »

So Space Platforms is knocked off the list... well then... :roll:

Can't really say I didn't expect it. I guess the point is reached where the bug hunting is actually slowing down the overall development progress, which is really showing through now, especially with a self-imposed deadline that forces one to narrow down planned features to the most essential ones. I wish I wouldn't blame the Multiplayer addition in 0.11 for it, but I really do, because I never played that thing and it took away 1 year of development and fixing stuff because it brought bugs and problems to daylight nobody noticed or cared about before that was a thing. But who am I to judge about that.


That said I still hope that at least some sort of other goal will come in place until Factorio is considered ready for 1.0 . One that might not be as ambitious as the Space Platforms, but one that fits a more realistic development schedule. At least one that introduces a "consumer" for the goods your factory produces.

I mean the current ending by sending a satelite to space is as equally a placeholder as the rocket defense used to be, so not much progress has been made in that matter. Not something I'd like to play another 10 times over, at least after I have been playing 20 to 30 games to exactly the same dull end after which your entire factory gets... useless from one second to another. Of all the things Factorio has to offer the end or better yet endgame is really the most boring thing yet.

Don't get me wrong, the game is quite overwhelming at the beginning, the challenge is really there, even if you start 20 times over, but the end is... dull. After getting Blue Science hooked up it's only a matter of time one gets bored out because research and supply/demand for getting things hooked up was the only thing that kept one going. After one has reasearched everything and one has no consumers anymore... One realizes that there is no real use for all the stuff you produced since you are basically done with the map.

Some may find it fun that they are continuing to play hundreds of hours on the same map, collecting resources and building items they will never need, which can be intriguing for some time but after that... it's boring because there is no "consumer" of all the crap one builds and collects.


So in that sense at least a "consumer" for all your goods should be there at Factorio 1.0, so that at least some sort of neverending gamemode is there that puts one in front of a demand-challenge, which encourages one to continue playing. Because honestly, the game is called Factorio, so it is all about producing goods... but there are NO "consumers" except oneself... which is almost a shame.

Without at least a better replacement for the Satelites I don't know if it was a good decision to back off from the only "endgame" proposal there has been in the past 3 years.
Last edited by MeduSalem on Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:11 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by Zeblote »

Luajit is the first step to fully custom entities implemented in lua, right? :D

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by Boogieman14 »

Gouada wrote:
bobingabout wrote:I noticed that the Fluid extention (Fluids as fuels, fluid train wagon etc) isn't on that todo list, I've been waiting for that since I first saw it on the expected list back when 0.10 was new.
I actually don't know how to feel about that one... Having tank trains makes more sense but I like the challenge of having to manage barrels. However if tank trains are added, it would make barrels (almost) useless. What do you guys think?
Not sure if barrels were intended or just added as a kludge because of lack of tanker wagons. In real life (granted, many comparisons between a game and real life fail :) ), I doubt oil in quantity is transported in barrels.
I don't have OCD, I have CDO. It's the same, but with the letters in the correct order.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by vaderciya »

I'm actually really disappointed. The game just ends. You build the end game building, which didn't change anything besides using materials, and then it's over. Oh... yay. Like that's it. It's really disappointing. You play through this wonderful game, more than once, do everything there is to do and then decide that you want build the end game structure because it's well, end game. You do so, and that's it. I understand that no matter what it is that is added to the game, It takes time, resources, and paychecks to the developers. However, If you end the game like this it will be such a let down, such a sad thing, that I feel almost betrayed. You should band together, realize that the game is more than the sum of it's parts, and finish the end game. Flush it out, make a space platform and space environment and space end game. Fulfill your duty as intelligent, brilliant, and outright revolutionary developers and finish the best game the world has ever seen with an ending that it, you, and it's players deserve! Finish the end game space content!

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by Klonan »

bobingabout wrote:I noticed that the Fluid extention (Fluids as fuels, fluid train wagon etc) isn't on that todo list, I've been waiting for that since I first saw it on the expected list back when 0.10 was new.

I noticed that too...

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by -root »

vaderciya wrote:words
For everyone who seems to think the world is now ending, just take a step back and think about some perspective. There's all this talk of "of its ruined", "its pointless to play now". But to get to the rocket, the average person is going to spend anywhere from 30 to 50 hours. The amount of content already in the game is staggering. Let me give you an example. I got through Mass Effect 3 in somewhere around 12 hours. Shit, by twelve hours in factorio, I hadn't even got to blue science!

Now, the space platform was a cool idea, no doubt. However, it didn't add anything to the game. Right now, the story is all about building from scratch. Certainly, the space platform is a continuation of that, but it doesn't match in with the story. The space platform has always felt like it belongs in the next book.
vaderciya wrote:I'm actually really disappointed.
Really disappointed eh? I get that everyone here is emotionally invested in the game. We all want the best for the game. But at the end of the day, there has to be a point at which you say "this is where the game stops". Based upon what we have, with a rocket launch, that makes perfect sense. Remember, the narrative of the game is yet to be set. Consider this as an example of what the narrative might be: you crash land on a hostile planet, you're dead, its just a matter of time. but somehow you make it. you build this awesome factory that makes these resources and eventually, you launch a satellite that let's you beam a signal back home and saves you. Now there's an end worth striving for. Now there's a reason to build this factory.

Additionally, by stopping the game at the rocket launch, it opens the door for Factorio 2 or Factorio Interstellar. Which, is an excellent business decision. You know why? I don't pre-order games, but Factorio 2 I would pre-order in a heart beat.

A bit of general advice, to everyone that is playing the guilt card on the devs, shame on you. They have sacrificed and slaved over this game. They have agonized over big decisions and lost sleep to this project. Kovarex, Tomas and the team all want this game to suceed more than any of us possibly could. The reason for that, this is a game to us. But this is their life. So please, don't hold back with the arguments (that is what makes this game better), but make them about the game, not trying to guilt the devs into doing what you want them to do.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by goertzenator »

I'm not sad to see that particular endgame go away, but I think we do need a better endgame than we have right now. Maybe something like building a number of expensive atmosphere processors that must be at least X km from each other. This is simple in that it leverages existing game mechanics but creates interesting transportation and security challenges.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by SuperSandro2000 »

I want fire! It looks really great!

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vaderciya
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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by vaderciya »

I didn't mean to "guilt trip" I meant to motivate. It is very accurate to say that I (and probably other people) am emotionally invested in this game. Factorio is fantastic, wonderful, and truly the only game of it's kind. There are things a little similiar, but Factorio is truly a gem. A wonderful, magnificent gem, and I love it.

I never considered a "factorio 2". Was there a friday facts that I didn't read that said something like that was possible or having a possibility at being looked at? I've never seen anything to mention it. But as for being disappointed, there was a friday facts that mentioned that a very likely end game scenario would be the space platform. It was "pretty much" confirmed. As someone who has put over 500 hours into the game, I was really stoked to finally have more to the game without mods. But then to have it torn away from you, for cosmetics is... well, disappointing. I was happy, and expecting a space end game that would be implemented into the game because that's what the devs were planning. To find out that my hope would be torn away, is sad, and disappointing. More over, I'm mainly sad because there isn't an end game at all. Sure, you COULD consider the end game to be just getting the best power armor and flying logistic bots. Graphical advances and effects are good and all, it's always nice to not have to strain your eyes to look at the game you're playing for 10 hours, but comparatively, I would much rather have more content than just making things look a little better. This is a short list of the items that were confirmed to be worked on/added into the game:
Proper tech tree
Turret extensions
Fight revisit and balancing
Basic mod portal integration
Basic multiplayer lobby
Hiearchical path finding
Better rail building
Secret
Lua jit
Gui polish
Better train wait conditions
Circuit network additions
I honestly don't think we need a tech tree, it's just a graphical improvment. I'm not really sure what turret extensions mean, but turrets are already so strong that it doesn't really matter, the aliens aren't really a problem even on extreme difficulty. Then again, the next item is to revist fighting and balancing. Which is a very good idea, but in my opinion not as important as making sure the game has a sink past science. Basic mod portal isn't really that necesarry, you can already mod the game just fine. It's just making things look a little nicer and adding some compatibility improvements. Basic multiplayer lobby, is actually a very good idea and I agree on completely. Pathfinding would help several things, so I agree with this too. Better rail laying? I'm not really sure what that is suppose to mean. You place rail, you use trains. That simple. Or not? Lua coding is obviously a priority. Gui polish is again taking away allocated workers from a possible content patch to make things look better. Train wait conditions, I never had problems with. Circuit networks do need more things added to them to make it a little more useful and not just something that most people don't use at all.
Overall, there are good ideas. But In my opinon, and that's all it is, just an opinion of a veteran of factorio. I would like end game content more than graphical upgrades and somewhat silly little things.
Please don't think I'm trying to start a fight or be rude or inconsiderate. I just want to express the need/want for more end game content. After you get your blue science up, most things are just handed to you on a silver platter. Is it wrong to want a real end game? ):
-----Vaderciya 500 hours in factorio

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by kiba »

I don't really care about the endgames or completing it.

I want MOAR stuff to play with and more things to work with.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by Xeteth »

vaderciya wrote:I would like end game content more than graphical upgrades and somewhat silly little things.
I think you're really missing the point here.

A game development team consists of many members who take upon different tasks. For example you might have a few coders, sound engineer, graphical department and so on. So the graphical changes etc. aren't necessarily taking time away from coding or content, they are done in parallel to other processes - that's really important to keep in mind.

Secondly these 'silly little things' are absolutely not 'silly' at all. Finishing off the game properly and ensuring that all the systems are in place is vital for a number of reasons. Firstly, even though they seem minor these 'little' issues becoming blatantly obvious if left to show - especially when looking at an upcoming release on a major platform (Steam) it is important to ship a product that is polished. Secondly it provides a foundation for the possibility of future content, how can we expect great things in the future if shortcuts are taken now?

My megabase has just over 750 hours played and is not finished yet. Sure, I could build a rocket and launch it into space and call it a day but I have not limited myself to doing just that - there are other goals that can be set. Now don't get me wrong; I really like the idea of space platforms, other planets, asteroids, who knows? But it is simply too much of an undertaking to put in before version 1.0. Let's imagine for a second that we did get the space platform - the same argument would come up again - "So we built this platform... then that's it?! Now what?". Let's finish off what we currently have, polish it completely, and ensure all systems are in place - that provides a solid foundation for future content that may come in the form of an expansion.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by Koub »

Reading all the answers so far, it appears I particularly agree with -root. I have been hoping such a FFF would eventually come out. The Friday Facts that won't announce new content after the content after the content, but polishing, correcting, balancing the current game.

Adding new content after the current endgame is a neverending struggle. Once the space platform gets added, some people will ask for other planet colonization, then other solar system colonization, then other galaxies, then other local groups, then other superclusters, and then what ? Transuniversal game ?

From the start, I've not been thrilled by that new philosophy, because I knew it would be a huge time sink that would drain all the the dev's efforts from the remaining of the game (I thought the same for multiplayer, and experience has proven me right, even if many people like that feature, I don't). I've seen many games trying to forever add new content to get players hooked-up, instead of perfecting what was already ingame, and adding value to game experience.

TL;DR : This is fantastic news : actual content polishing and enriching, a true mod repository with client-side integration, fight rebalance, and setting the foundation for the next BIG hit : Factorio 2 : Factory gets into the space (after a few years of developpment, because it would almost be a whole new game).
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Friday Facts #111 - Long term plans

Post by ske »

pib wrote:I'm disappointed about the removal of the space platform plans, but I find it understandable.

Still, for a lot less work, I would like to have sinks to keep the factories running. The saddest moment of a mod-free play through is when you finally finish all the research objectives, because pumping out all the science things is basically the most interesting thing to do up until that point. Then you get the the point where you can't spend those things anymore, and so you don't know what do. I had hoped that the space platform idea would help to find more sinks.

The rockets make a good sink, but it requires somewhat different facilities to pump them out, so you have a bunch of infrastructure that doesn't help.

...
I second this to some extent. There should be something that goes on forever as it is in games like SimCity or RailroadTycoon. Right now the game play is linear pointed towards an endpoint and then it's over when the tech-tree is done and the first Rocket is launched. After that it's just (for me rather pointless) repetition.

I think there should be some rewarding factor added in. What if - instead of sending Rockets - you kind of run an Intergalactic Hotel where spaceships land, get refuelled, resources are brought in and need to processed in time, and aliens have their fun. Then the Rocket gets a different purpose. It places a beacon in Orbit to attract visitors. The more Rockets you send, the more visitors come.

Resources right now are kind of limited. Except for Oil and Water. (Do trees regrow?) The things needed to run the Intergalactic Hotel should be based on limitless resources such that either they bring in resources which need to be processed and the fuel for the spaceship can be derived from oil.

Having a lot of resources to process would bring in some new aspect. Right now there is a steady processing of everything and there is always one bottleneck. Day/Night sequences would bring in some rythm but they are smoothed out by batteries. When one big pile of (you don't know before what it is) comes in and needs to be processed in a short time, this would make an empty factory fill up with items and activity and then ebb off again after everything is done. I find that aspect satisfying.

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