Friday Facts #375 - Quality
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
AWESOME! Oh my god, this really has me excited! I love the idea of "playing tall". One of the reasons I love krastorio so much, it adds those ridiculously fast machines. This is such a great feature! Instead of just going wide and getting more, I can see myself dedicating a big chunk of production on just stockpiling high quality mats instead.
Some things I like in particular is the radar range (I always use mods that make them wider currently) and grid slots. I wonder if quality also applies to trains (acceleration perhaps?) and cargo wagons (amount of cargo?)? Maybe could even apply to processed fuels (better acceleration?). I want my trains to go choo choo HARD.
Some things I like in particular is the radar range (I always use mods that make them wider currently) and grid slots. I wonder if quality also applies to trains (acceleration perhaps?) and cargo wagons (amount of cargo?)? Maybe could even apply to processed fuels (better acceleration?). I want my trains to go choo choo HARD.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
Well, here's me hoping that whole quality thing is a late April Fools.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
Actually, I have another question as well. With Productivity being capped to 300%, does that mean Mining Productivity is capped as well? Or is there a little bit of nuance that hasn't been discussed yet that means we still can get bigger productivity numbers on things that aren't making intermediaries?
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Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
They sound... simply incorrect to me as they are. A gear can be crude or pristine, but epic or legendary?kwik12 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:38 amTotally agree your names suites betterLubricus wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:30 amYea the names don't feel Factorio. Some less silly gamy names would be appreciated.Super Mikal wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:27 amOverall, I love this! But I also hate the names! I expect you will make them moddable though, right? I'd name them something like Crude/Low (and you only realize the quality wasn't even good before you unlock quality modules and see it), Normal/Nominal, High/Great, Exceptional/Superior and Pristine/Perfect.
On top of being highly generic adjectives, aren't they just nonsense when not applied to unique items like one-of-a-kind swords or whatever?
Last edited by Elocutiona on Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
Overall I'm really looking forward to it, but there's a couple things that need improving. The first is the quality names. What is this, an RPG? They should be given industrial names, like "basic", "refined", etc. The second one is that quality for inserters improves swing speed. It should be improving stack size so that the player doesn't pay a larger UPS cost for higher quality inserters for the same items/sec throughput.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
I wonder... is it possible to apply the quality filter to tiers? For example, my mod has 5 tiers of walls. If I could remove all the higher tiers and instead reference them in a similar way as quality, it would clean up the logic UI a fair bit. More so for larger mods that are chalk FULL of tiered entities.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
I actually don't like this.
The RPG-like quality names look stupid enough, but even if you rename them, you have just created a tiering system on top of another two tiering systems: the natural game progression (assmebly machine 1 -> 2 -> 3) and modules.
While this can create a late game mechanic, that allows you to scale some of your preestablished builds vertically, the way this mechanic works sound extremelty boring. All you need to do, is copy and paste the same structure that is just going to recycle lower quality items to get higher quality ones, rinse and repeat for every assembly machine/furnace/train?/roboport? etc.
Recycling to me would fit naturally into machine lifecycle, like if an assembly machine/furnace would have limited operating cycles, but handling that also sounds boring.
It creates more repetetive tasks instead of complexity and challenge (what I want from the DLC).
The RPG-like quality names look stupid enough, but even if you rename them, you have just created a tiering system on top of another two tiering systems: the natural game progression (assmebly machine 1 -> 2 -> 3) and modules.
While this can create a late game mechanic, that allows you to scale some of your preestablished builds vertically, the way this mechanic works sound extremelty boring. All you need to do, is copy and paste the same structure that is just going to recycle lower quality items to get higher quality ones, rinse and repeat for every assembly machine/furnace/train?/roboport? etc.
Recycling to me would fit naturally into machine lifecycle, like if an assembly machine/furnace would have limited operating cycles, but handling that also sounds boring.
It creates more repetetive tasks instead of complexity and challenge (what I want from the DLC).
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
Yes, the names!Elocutiona wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:50 amThey sound... simply incorrect to me as they are. A gear can be crude or pristine, but epic or legendary?kwik12 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:38 amTotally agree your names suites betterLubricus wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:30 amYea the names don't feel Factorio. Some less silly gamy names would be appreciated.Super Mikal wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:27 amOverall, I love this! But I also hate the names! I expect you will make them moddable though, right? I'd name them something like Crude/Low (and you only realize the quality wasn't even good before you unlock quality modules and see it), Normal/Nominal, High/Great, Exceptional/Superior and Pristine/Perfect.
On top of being highly generic, aren't they just nonsense when not applied to unique items like one-of-a-kind swords or whatever?
I know the intention of adding quality to the game and I believe it will make the game more fun to play. But the names make it more feel like a RPG rather than a factory game. You don't call raw materials that will eventually be mass produced "Legendary".
"Look at my legendary iron plates."
"What?"
On the other hand, "Perfect icon plates" sound more scientific and suits Factorio more.
Or simply use numeric representation like Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, Q5.
Also I don't like the quality icons.
Edit: or we can also call it Grading, i.e. Grade E, Grade D, Grade C, Grade B, Grade A.
Last edited by Mooncat on Fri Sep 08, 2023 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
In a similar vein, will this interfere with all the optimizations around saturated belts? It sounds like 10% (or more) of end-game outputs could be higher quality, which could effectively break up otherwise homogenous belts.
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Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
This is a joke, right?
Right?
Right?
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
I'm really confused now with quality and tiered machines. Now we have just 3 tiers of them then we'll have like 12 (T1.Q1->T1.Q2->...->T3.Q4)?
The overall quality idea is great but the implementation...
I'd say devs should change how recipes work to let use not an item but set of items so that better quality ingredients produce better quality result.
I've never seen an assembly line that suddenly makes better quality stuff but lots of them making worse by mistake or other reason.
The overall quality idea is great but the implementation...
I'd say devs should change how recipes work to let use not an item but set of items so that better quality ingredients produce better quality result.
I've never seen an assembly line that suddenly makes better quality stuff but lots of them making worse by mistake or other reason.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
Yeah, the names are awful. Factorio is not Fortnite! (or WoW, which I guess popularised this tiering? I heard of it first from Fortnite, having never played MMOs)
The gameplay I guess can't be judged without trying it but on the face of it I am quite skeptical. 5 tiers of quality presumably means 5 tiers of design, which is a huge expansion of complexity. But it's worse than that because the complexity multiplies: maybe your design could be significantly improved by using higher tier power poles, but obviously the assemblers, inserters, modules can all also be swapped out. Existing designs already converge around a few optima: early game yellow belts/low tier assemblers and furnaces/no modules, late game blue belts/high tier assemblers/beaconed max tier three modules for example, and not loads of other ones. This already allows for a large variety of design choices.
It looks like this will force you to deal with two kinds of complexity: randomness (which otherwise was just limited to nuclear processing, which many many people seem to aim to bypass by immediately researching enrichment!) and this huge proliferation of different tiers of building, compounding exponentially into different designs. I think a new way to deal with randomness adds an interesting relatively self-contained puzzle. But *guess* (and it can only be a guess) is that a lot of the new design complexity will not actually add much, because it's simply too much to deal with. People will likely opt out of a bunch of it and just go for the lowest or highest tier in one key item. The obsessives will find a way to make everything in max quality. A few people will presumably not design with it at all and just chuck in a few quality modules and upgrade bits without planning stuff beforehand, but I don't feel this will add much because design is the interesting part.
The gameplay I guess can't be judged without trying it but on the face of it I am quite skeptical. 5 tiers of quality presumably means 5 tiers of design, which is a huge expansion of complexity. But it's worse than that because the complexity multiplies: maybe your design could be significantly improved by using higher tier power poles, but obviously the assemblers, inserters, modules can all also be swapped out. Existing designs already converge around a few optima: early game yellow belts/low tier assemblers and furnaces/no modules, late game blue belts/high tier assemblers/beaconed max tier three modules for example, and not loads of other ones. This already allows for a large variety of design choices.
It looks like this will force you to deal with two kinds of complexity: randomness (which otherwise was just limited to nuclear processing, which many many people seem to aim to bypass by immediately researching enrichment!) and this huge proliferation of different tiers of building, compounding exponentially into different designs. I think a new way to deal with randomness adds an interesting relatively self-contained puzzle. But *guess* (and it can only be a guess) is that a lot of the new design complexity will not actually add much, because it's simply too much to deal with. People will likely opt out of a bunch of it and just go for the lowest or highest tier in one key item. The obsessives will find a way to make everything in max quality. A few people will presumably not design with it at all and just chuck in a few quality modules and upgrade bits without planning stuff beforehand, but I don't feel this will add much because design is the interesting part.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
This is an uncomfortable addition. However, 100% these tier names need to change. They don't fit even 1% with the games aesthetic.
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Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
The recycler creating better outputs than inputs feels wrong gameplaywise. To me, it seems like it should have a chance of producing the same tier (or lower) as the input, and that quality beacons would increase the chance to recapture the good inputs.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
Love everything in this Friday Fact and love the recycler. I love how it looks not and that fact 2x3/4 its brillant. Please dont change a thing
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
Both these things.
The system as a whole ... I'm very dubious about.
But the names, those desperately need to change to make it not seem like a joke.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
Honestly? Not a fan. Even with existing machine tiers I frequently don't even bother using anything past tier 1, and managing quality on top of that feels like a level of micromanagement that I don't need. Besides, having an assembly line where 2 assemblers are randomly 50% faster than everything else is just OCD-inducing.
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
I am really warming up to the idea... I have long hoped to see more "recycling loops" in factorio, ala science cards in SE!
If the factory spends a good fraction of the resources assembling/disassembling, this would also have some implications in terms of bus-based designs since resources would need to be looped around.
For UPS purposes, this also seems like a step in the right direction: With a constant cost (assembly/disassembly loops, etc. for generating the high-quality buildings), the entire factory can be upgraded by a huge factor, therefore saving UPS by requiring less "stuff".
My concern remains how "scaleable" assembly/disassembly and sorting is for buildings that require many different materials (mods), and whether there can be annoying implications for blueprints (i.e. having a lot of low-quality power-poles that cannot satisfy a blueprint).
If the factory spends a good fraction of the resources assembling/disassembling, this would also have some implications in terms of bus-based designs since resources would need to be looped around.
For UPS purposes, this also seems like a step in the right direction: With a constant cost (assembly/disassembly loops, etc. for generating the high-quality buildings), the entire factory can be upgraded by a huge factor, therefore saving UPS by requiring less "stuff".
My concern remains how "scaleable" assembly/disassembly and sorting is for buildings that require many different materials (mods), and whether there can be annoying implications for blueprints (i.e. having a lot of low-quality power-poles that cannot satisfy a blueprint).
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
Same here, please tell this is a joke.
Ever since the expansion was first announced a year ago, I had made up my mind to purchase it, regardless of its content. However, my enthusiasm has waned today, and I'm now seriously reconsidering my intention. It almost feels like they might announce loot boxes with a chance of obtaining a legendary nuclear reactor next
Re: Friday Facts #375 - Quality
As far as I know the saturation of belts (as a UPS optimization) is not broken here, since dissimilar items can already saturate a belt.