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We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:50 am
by FactorioBot
https://factorio.com/blog/post/we-support-ukraine

Please, keep the discussions about the world events (if you can't help it) specifically in threads related to this post, as we want to keep the rest of the forum on topic,

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:52 am
by Gergely
Suddenly politics?

Hey I get that the Uncle Bob friday facts was not a political post but considering the way that was settled this crosses a few lines for me. Namely why are you suddenly publicly taking a political stance after distancing yourself from politics.

There are supporters of both sides. Your stance is justified beyond reasonable doubt, I do not want to partake in a debate.

(Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood something.)

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:59 am
by mikiqex
Gergely wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:52 am
Suddenly politics?
Did you see what lies Russian state media outlets are writing about the war? More places writing about it may tell more Russians what's actually going on.

---

After your edit: We Czechs had our own 40 years of experience with Russian "liberators", that's why Wube's stance is justified. Soviets invaded us in 1968 and it was painfully similar, like the boys in tanks was told we did an uprising and when they arrived, they was confused that nothing is going on. Or that Russians didn't arrive alone.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:09 am
by Gergely
Just a note here that I edited my original reply.
mikiqex wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:59 am
Did you see what lies Russian state media outlets are writing about the war? More places writing about it may tell more Russians what's actually going on.
I saw many things and have mostly made up my mind on what to believe. You suddenly telling me that some things are "lies" are unlikely to change that. My point is actually not related to which side is "right".

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:11 am
by Snicker
Thank you for speeking up! I also have coworkers in Ukraine. Its awefull. Putin needs to be stoped! He is ruining both Russia and Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhQ5P_u4g-M

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:20 am
by BattleFluffy
slava ukraini !

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:25 am
by Snicker
Gergely wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:09 am
I saw many things and have mostly made up my mind on what to believe. You suddenly telling me that some things are "lies" are unlikely to change that. My point is actually not related to which side is "right".
I dont think in any time of recorded history there has been clearer what side evil and good is on.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:32 am
by CakeDog
Chadtorio!

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:47 am
by Constable
Ukraine bombed Donbass for 8 years and after that do you consider Russia an enemy? Russia stood up for Donbass, because Russia is tired of looking at it, looking at how people are suffering. And one interesting fact: Ukraine itself destroys cities with its tanks, while Russian tanks try not to break ANYTHING. Draw conclusions about who is to blame.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:06 pm
by WarStalkeR
mikiqex wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:59 am
Did you see what lies Russian state media outlets are writing about the war? More places writing about it may tell more Russians what's actually going on.
Did you see what lies Ukrainian media outlets are writing about the war? Lies and propaganda are from both sides.

As matter of the fact, my entire family (me, my parents, my relatives and my grandparents) had to run from Ukraine for our lives and immigrate to Israel 21 year ago. Run away from racism, run away from nazis, run away from antisemitism.

Don't you dare color one side as light and other as darkness. Both sides are screwed up deep enough.

Also, why for 8 years everybody was so silent about Donetsk and Lugansk, about horror that was going there for entire 8 years?

Frankly, this discussion is not for this forum. I suggest to erase this topic and forget it ever happened.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:10 pm
by snow-factory
Constable wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:47 am
Ukraine bombed Donbass for 8 years and after that do you consider Russia an enemy? Russia stood up for Donbass, because Russia is tired of looking at it, looking at how people are suffering. And one interesting fact: Ukraine itself destroys cities with its tanks, while Russian tanks try not to break ANYTHING. Draw conclusions about who is to blame.
You have got it all reversed. There had not been a single gunshot in Donbass (or elsewhere in UA) until Putin invaded Crimea and Russian soldiers "on vacation" invaded Donbass. Since that, there is terrible war on the east of Ukraine. Initiated by Russia. Kept alive by Russia. Now made much worse by Russia.

On top, if Russian forces return home, the war is over. If Ukrainian forces return home... well, they are home. If Ukrainian forces give up, there is no Ukraine left, they become Малороссы. Russia started the war. Russia can end the war any minute. Nobody else can.

Russia had invaded Czech Republic in 1968. Demolished free speech. Fired supporters of democracy from their jobs. And many worse atrocities on individual level.

Please see here the same building with soviet tanks in front of it.

Image

And no, there was no shooting in Czech before the Russians appeared on their tanks. They were not saving anyone.

It is very appropriate for a Czech gaming studio to speak up.

Thank you, Factorio, for doing this.

P.S.: We are not blaming Russian people for this. And we somewhat empathize with the 18 year old Russian soldiers who were told they are leaving for a training and all of a sudden find themselves in a war - not defending their country but attacking their Slavic brothers. We know it is Putin and his government who ordered the war. Please tell your government you do not want a war either. Nobody wins this war. Innocent people die. These, who started the war, are safe in bunkers.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:23 pm
by jakeman27
Constable wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:47 am
Russian tanks try not to break ANYTHING
Sure...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xcfJY6QwnY

I do not know the full background of Donbas, my understanding is there have been accusations of genocide for years but ultimately no credible evidence has been presented.
What I do know is the Russian leadership has repeatedly lied about what it is doing. There is no security threat from the west, Europe has for 2 decades or more now invested in tighter links with Russia as a trading partner. Most of the technological and economic advances of the last 80 years have been attributed to greater cooperation between everyone.

Pointedly in the UK, the government has ruled out it intervening in any Russian media being blocked for the very specific reason that the state should not be controlling the media and news in particular. The opposite is happening in Russia. Free access to information is essential.

The displacement of 7 million innocent people is not justifiable for any reason. The attack on another sovereign country that bears no security threat is not justifiable for any reason. If there are issues in the Donbas region then they should be evidenced and presented via the international institutions created to deal with them, intervening yourself is not justifiable for any reason.

No news outlet is completely free of bias nor 100% correct but Russian media is not news, is a narrative.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:40 pm
by enterisys
So it begins.
Image
These guys get paid 15RUB/post, can the mods please address them.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:43 pm
by Gergely
Snicker wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:25 am
I dont think in any time of recorded history there has been clearer what side evil and good is on.
I see. :roll:

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:59 pm
by Overlord218
jakeman27 wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:23 pm
Constable wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:47 am
Russian tanks try not to break ANYTHING
Sure...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xcfJY6QwnY
Nice video, but here is problem, this is Ukrainian tank.
Precisely 9K35 Strela-10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K35_Strela-10
And suddenly it out of service in Russia from 1976 (military don't use it anymore)

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:03 pm
by Tekky
In 1994, after the Soviet Union was dissolved, the Ukraine was the world's third largest nuclear power. In the Budapest Memorandum, the Ukraine agreed to give up all of its nuclear arsenal, after Russia (and several other nations) promised to respect its sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Since 2014 (annexation of Crimea), the Ukraine is paying the price for having trusted this promise of the Russian Government.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:09 pm
by Vinnie_NL
Yes there may have been some incidents to blame on Ukrainian army since the conflict started in 2014 (like the usage of BM-21 Grad missiles in populated areas according to wikipedia, I don't know how reliable that info is).
But all incidents from those 8 years combined don't even compare to what happens now in 1 day. Putin doesn't care about the people of Donetsk and Luhansk, he doesn't even care about his own people, sending 18 year old boys into this war with minimal training and briefing.

Putin only want more power in the world, like USSR had in the past. For this he will focus on a small region in the country with a sizable part of Russian roots. Then he will create unrest and frustration in this part with propaganda to drive it further away from the rest with propaganda until there is enough reason to start a conflict, possibly armed as in Ukraine. I do not blame this on the common Russian people, and the standard Russian conscripts who were unknowingly forced into this 'training exercise'. This is mainly from the actions of one man: Vladimir Putin, after that his direct subordinates and his oligarch friends who helped him to get so much power in Russia. Of course they are afraid to critisize him now while he still has enough power to order some assassinations to whoever is a danger to him.

When Ukraine surrenders Putin will repeat the same trick with rest of more countries. So this is not only about Ukraine, it's about the the whole of Europe and affects a lot of lives directly. That's why it is not a political statement and we have to do everything to stop this.

I also hope everyone from 4A Games (Metro) and GSC Game World (S.T.A.L.K.E.R.) is safe, since they have their office in Kyiv. Even if most employees were working from home, or were transfered to another office, I assume most of the employees are from Ukraine and still live there with their families.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:11 pm
by jakeman27
Overlord218 wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:59 pm
jakeman27 wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:23 pm
Constable wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:47 am
Russian tanks try not to break ANYTHING
Sure...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xcfJY6QwnY
Nice video, but here is problem, this is Ukrainian tank.
Precisely 9K35 Strela-10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K35_Strela-10
And suddenly it out of service in Russia from 1976 (military don't use it anymore)
The first versions were put in service in 1976, the Ukrainian Army do also use them as per the link you sent but that source also quotes Russia as having 350 in current use.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:13 pm
by enterisys
Overlord218 wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:59 pm

Nice video, but here is problem, this is Ukrainian tank.
Precisely 9K35 Strela-10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K35_Strela-10
And suddenly it out of service in Russia from 1976 (military don't use it anymore)
Correct it is UA tank, russians managed to sieze it with another truck and storm into Kyiv to wreck havoc. There are other videos of UA forces neutralizing truck and shooting at the tank. They are disturbing I will not post them.

Re: We support Ukraine

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:15 pm
by Overlord218
Vinnie_NL wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:09 pm
Yes there may have been some incidents to blame on Ukrainian army since the conflict started in 2014 (like the usage of BM-21 Grad missiles in populated areas according to wikipedia, I don't know how reliable that info is).
But all incidents from those 8 years combined don't even compare to what happens now in 1 day. Putin doesn't care about the people of Donetsk and Luhansk, he doesn't even care about his own people, sending 18 year old boys into this war with minimal training and briefing.

Putin only want more power in the world, like USSR had in the past. For this he will focus on a small region in the country with a sizable part of Russian roots. Then he will create unrest and frustration in this part with propaganda to drive it further away from the rest with propaganda until there is enough reason to start a conflict, possibly armed as in Ukraine. I do not blame this on the common Russian people, and the standard Russian conscripts who were unknowingly forced into this 'training exercise'. This is mainly from the actions of one man: Vladimir Putin, after that his direct subordinates and his oligarch friends who helped him to get so much power in Russia. Of course they are afraid to critisize him now while he still has enough power to order some assassinations to whoever is a danger to him.

When Ukraine surrenders Putin will repeat the same trick with rest of more countries. So this is not only about Ukraine, it's about the the whole of Europe and affects a lot of lives directly. That's why it is not a political statement and we have to do everything to stop this.

I also hope everyone from 4A Games (Metro) and GSC Game World (S.T.A.L.K.E.R.) is safe, since they have their office in Kyiv. Even if most employees were working from home, or were transfered to another office, I assume most of the employees are from Ukraine and still live there with their families.
18 years old boys don't participate in this conflict. (It's not a war, it's a special operation. USA did the same in past).
Want more power? Examples please. He want more power when Russia sold gas and oil to Europe so european people can warm up on winter?