We support Ukraine

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kovarex
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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by kovarex »

I strongly disagree with the decision of the Czech Republic to block some of the pages and to criminalise different opinions.
I'm well aware that it is targeted to the well-known propaganda tools of the russian regime, and understand the sentiment, but this is about principle.
Different opinions or views can be argued against, or ignored, but never silenced.

The single fact that russia and china is more and more aggresively limiting the access to "wrong" information is one of the most simple points that show the evil of such a regime.
But if our government is doing something similar, we can't point fingers anymore.
Considering that the real effect of those propaganda channels was very limited, we are sacrifising important and big principle to solve quite minor problem.

What do you think is a better way to change someones mind? Allow real free speech and let his potentially stupid opinion to crumble in any serios discussion, or to just criminalise his ability to express his opinion in the first place?

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by kmack413 »

Wube,

Thanks so much for the support of the amazing Ukrainian people. My wife and I years ago hosted a young Ukrainian girl in a student exchange program. She was in high-school then. She now is married and teaches school in Germany.

Currently, her family is in the western part of Ukraine with bags packed and ready to leave if things get too bad. She is heart-broken over what has become of her country and her people...and yet she rightfully expresses great pride in their resilience.

Fight Ukraine...for your land, for freedom, for each other.

The rest of us: we must fight too. With wise words, wise ideals and an unflinching belief that good will overcome evil; freedom over tyranny.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Wiwiweb »

kovarex wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:43 pm
I strongly disagree with the decision of the Czech Republic to block some of the pages and to criminalise different opinions.
I'm well aware that it is targeted to the well-known propaganda tools of the russian regime, and understand the sentiment, but this is about principle.
Different opinions or views can be argued against, or ignored, but never silenced.

The single fact that russia and china is more and more aggresively limiting the access to "wrong" information is one of the most simple points that show the evil of such a regime.
But if our government is doing something similar, we can't point fingers anymore.
Considering that the real effect of those propaganda channels was very limited, we are sacrifising important and big principle to solve quite minor problem.

What do you think is a better way to change someones mind? Allow real free speech and let his potentially stupid opinion to crumble in any serios discussion, or to just criminalise his ability to express his opinion in the first place?
I guess the part people would disagree on is "the real effect of those propaganda channels was very limited"

I've never seen anyone change their minds from being provided arguments and new information that goes against their views. However, lots of people have changed their minds over time from a 24/7 diet of misinformation news.

If these propaganda channels were not effective, Russia would not be spending so much energy on them.
kovarex wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:43 pm
The single fact that russia and china is more and more aggresively limiting the access to "wrong" information is one of the most simple points that show the evil of such a regime.
But if our government is doing something similar, we can't point fingers anymore.
The difference is they are banning info that contradicts their promoted view, we are banning info proven to be purposeful misinformation.

The obvious thought at that is "Everyone has a promoted view and every info will be biased, misinformation is relative", right? But I don't think misinformation is relative.

For example saying "Ukraine is not democratic" is just outright proven to be false, as verified by numerous countries and NGOs.

There can definitely a bias spectrum even in real news channels, so for a lot of things it is difficult to outright say "these things are true, these things are false". But if we identify outright attempts at foreign propaganda for the purpose of justifying a war, I don't think there is a loss in preventing it. They were not here to argue or to have their positions changed. They were not here to do journalism or provide information either.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by _Attila_ »

@Wiwiweb +1

Also, countries that joined the sanctions against Russia have effectively declared economic war. As such, it is usually frowned upon to give comfort to the enemy. The last thing one would want is some moron to praise Putin as a genius, but it is allowed and it will please some people, while the mind of others might be swayed.

Propaganda is a powerful tool and dictatorships know how to use it to great effect.
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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by FuryoftheStars »

I gotta agree with Wiwiweb and others.

While I want to believe in 100% freedom of speech and combating misinformation and ignorance with discussion, reasoning, and proof, I feel as though that only works in a perfect world. (However, full on censorship and punishment for simply expressing opposing views isn’t the right way, either.)

I mean, you just have to look at the past couple of years and the differences in opinions over covid, masks, vaccinations, politics, etc and how they’re still just as present today.

Yeah, I’m sure some people here and there were swayed, but I’m also sure that went both ways and that the vast majority will never be swayed without a direct in-their-face approach (mind you, not aggressive, just not the internet from people that they already don’t trust and believe are lying).

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by PacifyerGrey »

kovarex wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:43 pm
I strongly disagree with the decision of the Czech Republic to block some of the pages and to criminalise different opinions.
I'm well aware that it is targeted to the well-known propaganda tools of the russian regime, and understand the sentiment, but this is about principle.
Different opinions or views can be argued against, or ignored, but never silenced.

The single fact that russia and china is more and more aggresively limiting the access to "wrong" information is one of the most simple points that show the evil of such a regime.
But if our government is doing something similar, we can't point fingers anymore.
Considering that the real effect of those propaganda channels was very limited, we are sacrifising important and big principle to solve quite minor problem.

What do you think is a better way to change someones mind? Allow real free speech and let his potentially stupid opinion to crumble in any serios discussion, or to just criminalise his ability to express his opinion in the first place?
I will give you a real example. I had a neighbor in my house. When first explosions started a week ago, he was laughing at us hiding in the basement. He told that explosions were not Russia’s fault as Putin promised not to harm civilians and those were just our military’s misfires.
When cluster bombs came in he was outside. He and his wife were heavily wounded. We had to treat their wounds in our basement with all we’ve got with no medics available.
Next day he was running himself shouting “air alert”.
So it took THAT much to free his mind from the result of propaganda.

Putin’s regime fully relies on propaganda and information war. So fighting it using legal means is just another line of defense. Sweat lies based on people’s hope and fears are his weapons and it is best to ban those legally than face their consequences later.

Trust me, we are all after democracy here in Ukraine, but we know that some mental illnesses need heavy vaccines. And Czech learned it the hard way.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by aka13 »

PacifyerGrey wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:17 pm
Sumanai wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:58 pm
How about a stupid question? I hope the developers of the game Factorio will not block access to Russian players? And then I recently wanted to buy a game, until the ruble finally depreciated, but the possibility of sanctions against a simple person who cannot influence anything scares me. I already got into trouble with the Namecheap registrar (after which I had to transfer the domain to a Russian registrar, and, ultimately, do exactly the opposite of the registrar's declared goals), and I would not want to repeat this here.
I would like to hear the opinion of the developers on this matter. Thanks.
You know that certain actions are crimes. So is INACTION.
Russia is being isolated like North Korea and it is your personal punishment for inaction. YOU allowed Putin to rule you. You silently accept his actions. You failed to find truth.
And for all of the above you will be punished.
And is is the biggest mistake of common Russians to say they can’t do anything. You just don’t want to as you are afraid to. And for this you will be punished.

This is precisely why this war happened, and why north korea is still standing, 80 years later.
I am not an evil man, so I will not wish upon you what you wish upon others, let's hope you will not get punished merely for existing and trying to live a life sometime in the future.
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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Wiwiweb »

PacifyerGrey wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:17 pm
You know that certain actions are crimes. So is INACTION.
Russia is being isolated like North Korea and it is your personal punishment for inaction. YOU allowed Putin to rule you. You silently accept his actions. You failed to find truth.
And for all of the above you will be punished.
And is is the biggest mistake of common Russians to say they can’t do anything. You just don’t want to as you are afraid to. And for this you will be punished.
That's going too far. Russian citizens did not cause this war. And protesting in Russia is dangerous.
I would not be as courageous as these people, so I cannot ask anyone to do it even though I hugely respect those who do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDp34HFcOBM

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Zentay »

Wube, thank you for taking a stand against destructive Russian imperialism.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by mmmPI »

Wiwiweb wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:27 am
The obvious thought at that is "Everyone has a promoted view and every info will be biased, misinformation is relative", right? But I don't think misinformation is relative.
That sort of reflexion in the field of sociology and journalism has lead some researchers to conclude that seeking "objective truth" is not possible, or very difficult, and instead of trying to artificially remove their own biaises would just try to express them before hand, sort of transparent subjectivity. Declaration of interests for journalists for exemple, or little biography explaining who the author is and its opinions, people in sociology are supposed to write paragraphs prior to doing any research to describe what they expect their experiment to yield as result and then compare their initial biais with the figures in the survey after it's done. Idea being, you question your views and prejudice rather than trying to explain the truth from start you approach it from every angle. As an attempt to replicate the scientific way of establishing knowledge. Not everyone share this, critics often says that's not empathic/ cold and in case of high emotions no-one listen to you in favor of more extreme and simplistic views. But i think this allow to identify who is a neutral party, and who isn't, weight the biaises, understand why and who thinks which way to allow mutual understanding and solutions for long term.
Wiwiweb wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 1:27 am
The difference is they are banning info that contradicts their promoted view, we are banning info proven to be purposeful misinformation.
In theory yes, that's the goal, but when people express themselves there is a mix of opinion and facts, of their own subjectivity. "Fake news" would be something contrary to the "truth" but controversial opinions are not to be prooven "wrong". You can not proove wrong someone who say "i like this". And then if you ask them why they could refers to facts that are true or not true, or even other people's opinion. It becomes very difficult to draw the lines of what should be allowed and what shouldn't.
kovarex wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:43 pm
What do you think is a better way to change someones mind? Allow real free speech and let his potentially stupid opinion to crumble in any serios discussion, or to just criminalise his ability to express his opinion in the first place?
option 1 !

Although there are cases where a group of person intend to gain media coverage due to very controversial opinion. And once it has the buzz going, gradually moderate their saying to gain a wider acceptance hijacking the process. There are also cases where you make a debate 1 person vs 1 person, but it represent 97% of scientist, and the other 3% of them. Those tends to misrepresent freedom of speech as it's a way to promote some opinions. The same way you can pay a team of person to manage some bots on social media to do astroturfing. It's only by being aware that those exist that you can fight against them i think, teach people they exist so they are less naive, make it more and more difficult to benefit from ignorance or emotion.


snow-factory wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:12 pm
Yes, I think the threat of prosecution might have been unnecessary. But in reality nobody in Czech shall be afraid to speak freely. That is again Russian troll narrative. Also, they (intentionally?) confuse courts and police actions - police investigation is not a prosecution, most are just "deferred" as unfounded. Practically, you can say that you support the invasion and people will think you are a terrible person but you are not going to jail. Only if you would start promoting and enticing the violence directly "let's go and kill all the bloody insert your enemy here", then there would be a risk of getting to court. Or recently people who texted direct threats to politicians are investigated. But even these are more likely to get 300 hours of community service rather than jail. TLDR: No censorship in Czech.
The wording of the law seems vague enough to allow arbitrary measures. Or possible justifications you could be required to provide in order to proove you are not a Russian troll. That inverse the burden of the proof.

Although in the example, after reading the google translated article i can imagine what questions the czech police felt they had to ask, given the public responsability of the person and the possible confusion between personnal and official opinion. I also note that the person has not been shot, poisonned, suicided, beaten up disappeared or anything along those lines. Which could be seen as a weakness for a more authoritarian regime but also makes it a more desirable place to live in, something worth fighting for.
PacifyerGrey wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 5:55 am
Trust me, we are all after democracy here in Ukraine, but we know that some mental illnesses need heavy vaccines. And Czech learned it the hard way.
Please keep science/medicine aways from politics !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sluggish_ ... _and_study

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

You guys speak wise words but you dont understand one thing.
If you are capable of analysing presented information and identifying fact it does not mean that other "more simple" people will be able to do the same.
They are weak link that needs to be protected, not you.
Banning lying and false news source that were proved so is the only way due to its effects on "simple workers" in both short-term and long-term.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Waudiver »

I've made an account just to reply to this post. Thank you for showing your solidarity and donating to relief efforts. The great majority of players support you and your statement no matter what some comments say. After all, what would the world look like if most people supported such barbarism? Supporting Ukraine means supporting fundamental human values. Values our civilization depends on such as peace, love, and friendship.
As a German-Russian, my mother has a lot of friends in Ukraine and we fear for their safety. I'm constantly checking the current situation and everyone who does even a small part in helping the Ukrainians, whether it's going on the streets and protesting, donating, doing journalism, or anything else, is a hero to me.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by garrotte »

Russian parliament quickly prepares now a legal act to jail for 3 years any person who is twice in a year got detained during street actions against this war.

It's easy to blame us and give us cowards names, but we all watched how it happened last Summer in Belarus. Where not 40%, but over 70% are against their dictator, and they massively came into streets, tried to fight and were stopped, some were killed. No one from Europe was able to help, even when plane was highjacked. Putin has much more resources than Lukashenko.
Ukraine fortunately didn't have such police pressure nor in '2004 neither in '2013. It was great, but doesn't help Russians.
There are enough detention buses in Russia (especially in Moscow and St Petersburgh regions) to take everyone even if some of those buses are to be broken by people. And there is no doubt even for a second that police guns are to be used against protesting crowd if any considerable amount of buses or other police technics is destroyed by non-armed crowd. One can read Moscow protests history of last two years to make sure.

Concerning stopping access to Factorio for players from Russia as a punishment for this "inaction": there is also a big chance that Internet will be walled here in several months (or temporary blocked till Chinese alike wall is prepared) and we will loose access anyway.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by SGKoishi »

snow-factory wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:10 pm
Constable wrote:
Wed Mar 02, 2022 11:47 am
Ukraine bombed Donbass for 8 years and after that do you consider Russia an enemy? Russia stood up for Donbass, because Russia is tired of looking at it, looking at how people are suffering. And one interesting fact: Ukraine itself destroys cities with its tanks, while Russian tanks try not to break ANYTHING. Draw conclusions about who is to blame.
You have got it all reversed. There had not been a single gunshot in Donbass (or elsewhere in UA) until Putin invaded Crimea and Russian soldiers "on vacation" invaded Donbass. Since that, there is terrible war on the east of Ukraine. Initiated by Russia. Kept alive by Russia. Now made much worse by Russia.

On top, if Russian forces return home, the war is over. If Ukrainian forces return home... well, they are home. If Ukrainian forces give up, there is no Ukraine left, they become Малороссы. Russia started the war. Russia can end the war any minute. Nobody else can.

Russia had invaded Czech Republic in 1968. Demolished free speech. Fired supporters of democracy from their jobs. And many worse atrocities on individual level.

Please see here the same building with soviet tanks in front of it.

Image

And no, there was no shooting in Czech before the Russians appeared on their tanks. They were not saving anyone.

It is very appropriate for a Czech gaming studio to speak up.

Thank you, Factorio, for doing this.

P.S.: We are not blaming Russian people for this. And we somewhat empathize with the 18 year old Russian soldiers who were told they are leaving for a training and all of a sudden find themselves in a war - not defending their country but attacking their Slavic brothers. We know it is Putin and his government who ordered the war. Please tell your government you do not want a war either. Nobody wins this war. Innocent people die. These, who started the war, are safe in bunkers.
But the victims are Crimea citizens. Do Ukraine fight for their political control, or for the citizens? They are attacking citizens, not the army; the Crimea bombing causes more deaths than the war right now.
Also, from the polls it seems that most Crimea choose to be Autonomy instead of controlled by Ukraine, even before 2014.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

Dude you should check back with your agenda, because I think you mistook Crimea with russian occupied territories.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by MOP3E »

Eight years ago, the Ukrainian Nazis, with the support of the United States, organized a coup in Ukraine, overthrew the legitimate President and began persecuting Russians.
Eight years ago, horrified by this, Crimea seceded from Ukraine.
Eight years ago, Ukrainians from Donbass tried to draw attention to the problem of Russians in Ukraine.
Eight years ago, Ukrainians in the Donbas were killed by Ukrainian Nazis.
During these eight years, the Ukrainians of Donbass have received nothing but deaths from the Nazi government of Ukraine.
And now these people no longer consider themselves Ukrainians. Now they are Russians.
For eight years in a row, Europe hypocritically pretended that it did not see how Ukrainian Nazis were killing Ukrainian citizens in the Donbas.
All these eight years, the United States continued to teach Ukrainians to hate Russians.
During this time, the United States began to build two military bases in Ukraine.
Last year, the United States began pushing the Nazi government of Ukraine to create an atomic bomb.
What was to be the next?
Ukraine's nuclear war against Russia?
No.
Russia will not allow this.
We will not allow our country to be destroyed.
If it means destroying the Ukrainian Nazis, we will do it.

The creators of Factorio support the Ukrainian Nazis. Those who support Hitler and dream of fascist Germany.
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enterisys
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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

Maybe before you talk about nazis in Ukraine you clear your own russian nazis. Just google the same topics on vk.com ("ru FB"), I am sure you'll find many local comrades in moscow/spb.
And why post these 3 pictures completely out of context how does a nazi(1) correlate to girl flashmob(2) and Bandera(3).
Just FYI Bandera is the guy who fought soviets in 1940s for independent Ukrainian state so he joined Germans. The same way soviets joined with Germans prior to WW2 to annex some European territories together.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by tuhe »

Last year, the United States began pushing the Nazi government of Ukraine to create an atomic bomb.
..and they are building the nuke out of the hopes and dreams of every little boy in Russia, and they will ban candy, and there will be early bedtimes, and Putin looks like a grown man behind the giant desk, and Russian state media would never lie, and the Ukranians has amassed a slave army of puppies, and Portugal is truly a long-forgotten slavic colony promised to the Russian Tzar by no other than mickey-mouse!

(quote was from a post above, in case it is removed)

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by MOP3E »

enterisys wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:04 pm
Maybe before you talk about nazis in Ukraine you clear your own russian nazis.
The Russian Nazis were convicted under Article 280. Ukrainian - they are sitting in the Ukrainian government and killing Russians in the Donbas. This is the main difference between Russia and Ukraine.
enterisys wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:04 pm
And why post these 3 pictures completely out of context how does a nazi(1) correlate to girl flashmob(2) and Bandera(3).
Typical European pretense. You don't want to notice the swastika in photo #2. And you don't want to remember that Bandera collaborated with the German fascists and killed Russian children, women and old people for them.
enterisys wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:04 pm
And why post these 3 pictures...
3 pictures? There are thousands of them!
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=uk ... HoverTitle
Here are some more pictures for you:
Image
Image
Image
This is the Nazi battalion "Azov" ("Азов") into Armed forces of Ukraine. There are many Nazi battalions in Ukraine.
Last edited by MOP3E on Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by FuryoftheStars »

tuhe wrote:
Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:05 pm
Last year, the United States began pushing the Nazi government of Ukraine to create an atomic bomb.
..and they are building the nuke out of the hopes and dreams of every little boy in Russia, and they will ban candy, and there will be early bedtimes, and Putin looks like a grown man behind the giant desk, and Russian state media would never lie, and the Ukranians has amassed a slave army of puppies, and Portugal is truly a long-forgotten slavic colony promised to the Russian Tzar by no other than mickey-mouse!

(quote was from a post above, in case it is removed)
:lol:

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