We support Ukraine

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enterisys
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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:14 pm
So, its just about, that western states don't want to make their hands dirty/don't want to invest too much money/don't want to explain to citizens?
Germany suddenly wants to invest 100 billion into military. The german army is like dead currently, to much saving and mismanagement. If we get attacked, we can't defend on our own.
Rank Country Spending (US$ bn)
7 Germany 52.8

I wouldnt call it dead (Ukraine army was dead in 2014), I doubt any of those money were stolen (developed democratic country) unlike in russia where it's primary feeding basket for ruling elites.
But with 100 bln - Germany will become biggest land army in the world and thats is worth something. Much respect.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by jodokus31 »

enterisys wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:17 pm
jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:14 pm
So, its just about, that western states don't want to make their hands dirty/don't want to invest too much money/don't want to explain to citizens?
Germany suddenly wants to invest 100 billion into military. The german army is like dead currently, to much saving and mismanagement. If we get attacked, we can't defend on our own.
Rank Country Spending (US$ bn)
7 Germany 52.8

I wouldnt call it dead, I doubt any of those money were stolen (developed democratic country) unlike in russia where it's primary feeding basket for ruling elites.
But with 100 bln - Germany will become biggest land army in the world and thats is worth something. Much respect.
Unless their spent most of it to "consultants", where Ursula von der Leyen, former ministry for defence, was very good at.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by ptx0 »

Djmixxx wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:01 pm
When Ukrainian soldiers shoot at Russian soldiers. This is a war between Ukraine and Russia. If Polish soldiers, for example, come to Ukraine and start shooting at Russian soldiers. This is not a war between Russia and Ukraine. This is a war between Russia and Poland.
this is isolationist mentality from the cold war era.

modern life is interconnected. an attack on one is an attack on all. this is what NATO is about.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Djmixxx »

ptx0 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:44 pm
this is isolationist mentality from the cold war era.
modern life is interconnected. an attack on one is an attack on all. this is what NATO is about.
Ok.
Last edited by Djmixxx on Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

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Djmixxx wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:02 pm
bullshit rambling
oh look, someone who doesn't know how geopolitical relations or allies work.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Zentay »

Russia seems to be losing the war. At least that is the impression and I hope it's true. The next thing to hope for after victory for Ukraine is regime change in Russia.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Djmixxx »

Zentay wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:21 pm
Russia seems to be losing the war. At least that is the impression and I hope it's true. The next thing to hope for after victory for Ukraine is regime change in Russia.

And on what basis do you have such an impression? And how will change the regime in Russia?
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: Re:

Post by FuryoftheStars »

mmmPI wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:19 pm
jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:15 pm
Do you mean Cuban crysis? That was quite similar and was resolved without WW with a compromise. (to find or follow a way between extremes)
That's different, in Cuba there WAS nuclear missile, in Ukraine there is no nuke, like if the USA invade Mexico now because it claims maybe it will go in an alliance with someone else.

I mean the compromise was the removal of the missile right ? after a fail invasion attempt ? we got the failing invasion attempt, but one cannot remove missile if there is no missile !
IIRC, the US attempted to support a group from Cuba that wanted to overthrow Castro. That failed (Bay of Pigs). After that, Cuba attempted some kind of security arrangement with Russia and in exchange Russia was going to stage Nuclear missiles in Cuba.

They never made it. The US Navy blockaded the Russian ships carrying the missiles and prevented them from reaching Cuba. I’m unsure what the final agreement that was reached was.

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Re: Re:

Post by mmmPI »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:43 pm
mmmPI wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:19 pm
jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:15 pm
Do you mean Cuban crysis? That was quite similar and was resolved without WW with a compromise. (to find or follow a way between extremes)
That's different, in Cuba there WAS nuclear missile, in Ukraine there is no nuke, like if the USA invade Mexico now because it claims maybe it will go in an alliance with someone else.

I mean the compromise was the removal of the missile right ? after a fail invasion attempt ? we got the failing invasion attempt, but one cannot remove missile if there is no missile !
IIRC, the US attempted to support a group from Cuba that wanted to overthrow Castro. That failed (Bay of Pigs). After that, Cuba attempted some kind of security arrangement with Russia and in exchange Russia was going to stage Nuclear missiles in Cuba.

They never made it. The US Navy blockaded the Russian ships carrying the missiles and prevented them from reaching Cuba. I’m unsure what the final agreement that was reached was.

That's a bit different chonology than i had in memory, i've double checked : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

They seem to say that at the time there WAS missile in Cuba, but were installed AFTER the failed bay of Pigs attempt. I though the bay of pigs thing was the first attempt at removing the missile but no it was attempt at overthrow leftist government that overthrew right wing government.

That could have been something like Russia seize Crimea, USA puts nuclear weapon to protect Ukraine => crisis. But there is nothing like nuclear weapon to remove from Ukraine.

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Re: Re:

Post by FuryoftheStars »

mmmPI wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:18 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:43 pm
mmmPI wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:19 pm
jodokus31 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:15 pm
Do you mean Cuban crysis? That was quite similar and was resolved without WW with a compromise. (to find or follow a way between extremes)
That's different, in Cuba there WAS nuclear missile, in Ukraine there is no nuke, like if the USA invade Mexico now because it claims maybe it will go in an alliance with someone else.

I mean the compromise was the removal of the missile right ? after a fail invasion attempt ? we got the failing invasion attempt, but one cannot remove missile if there is no missile !
IIRC, the US attempted to support a group from Cuba that wanted to overthrow Castro. That failed (Bay of Pigs). After that, Cuba attempted some kind of security arrangement with Russia and in exchange Russia was going to stage Nuclear missiles in Cuba.

They never made it. The US Navy blockaded the Russian ships carrying the missiles and prevented them from reaching Cuba. I’m unsure what the final agreement that was reached was.

That's a bit different chonology than i had in memory, i've double checked : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

They seem to say that at the time there WAS missile in Cuba, but were installed AFTER the failed bay of Pigs attempt. I though the bay of pigs thing was the first attempt at removing the missile but no it was attempt at overthrow leftist government that overthrew right wing government.

That could have been something like Russia seize Crimea, USA puts nuclear weapon to protect Ukraine => crisis. But there is nothing like nuclear weapon to remove from Ukraine.
Chronology seems correct? You basically said the same thing as me. Difference is I didn't realize that some missiles had already made it to Cuba. I thought it was just the launch platforms that were constructed there and the missiles themselves were blocked from arriving.

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Re: Re:

Post by mmmPI »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:06 pm

Chronology seems correct? You basically said the same thing as me. Difference is I didn't realize that some missiles had already made it to Cuba. I thought it was just the launch platforms that were constructed there and the missiles themselves were blocked from arriving.
Yes but i thought that bay of pig invasion happened because of missile, but no, the missile weren't there at the time. ( that's learned from school in like a 2 hours course long time ago )

There are similarities but also differences. There more than 10 million Ukrainian displaced, and thousands of casualties, the current war happening is very destructive. Even though it started like a regime change attempt, it used lots of troops, it has since then changed to a war, with missiles shot from russian boats directly onto cvilians building and it's been almost a month.

The world has changed since then too it was like 60 years ago.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by mmmPI »

Zentay wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:21 pm
Russia seems to be losing the war. At least that is the impression and I hope it's true. The next thing to hope for after victory for Ukraine is regime change in Russia.
The next thing i hope for is peace. Then i wonder if regime change in Russia is the best thing for such hope.

I am under the impression that Russia is not winning the war too. But a regime change that is full of revenge made only of the most bellicist factions after the moderate fled or were considered traitor is a lot of uncertainty for the future.

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Re: Re:

Post by FuryoftheStars »

mmmPI wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:18 pm
There are similarities but also differences. [...]

The world has changed since then too it was like 60 years ago.
Oh, absolutely. Forgive me, the point behind my post was to make sure we got the facts straight on the past event, nothing more. I definitely agree that one cannot point to a past event and claim "well, they did it!" as justification for someone else doing it (as I've said before :) ). Especially where one such event, while some of the basis may be the same, the method of resolving it was completely different.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by tuhe »

Joke: russian news: Russia is now at war with Nato. Russia has fought hard and lost 14000 men, 500 tanks, 1300 vehicles and apc's, 100 airplanes and 6 generals. Nato has not shown up yet.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Zentay »

mmmPI wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:27 pm
I am under the impression that Russia is not winning the war too. But a regime change that is full of revenge made only of the most bellicist factions after the moderate fled or were considered traitor is a lot of uncertainty for the future.
The regime change that I think could happen is that Putin is removed as leader by his own people. Whoever comes afterwards can blame all bad things on Putin and hopefully create a better Russia that can get along with the rest of the world.

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Re:We support Ukraine

Post by mmmPI »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:27 pm
Forgive me, the point behind my post was to make sure we got the facts straight on the past event, nothing more. I definitely agree that one cannot point to a past event and claim "well, they did it!" as justification for someone else doing it (as I've said before :) ). Especially where one such event, while some of the basis may be the same, the method of resolving it was completely different.
No you forgive me, i have re-read some part, i had some facts not straight now it's hopefully better.
tuhe wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:46 pm
Joke: russian news: Russia is now at war with Nato. Russia has fought hard and lost 14000 men, 500 tanks, 1300 vehicles and apc's, 100 airplanes and 6 generals. Nato has not shown up yet.
In a non-joke perspective, i've heard a lot that for estimation of casualties a method is to multiply the number of vehicule destroyed by 4, as it is a figure that has prooven helpful factoring other recent conflict with similar weaponry/tactics. Then you multiply this number by 3 to have an estimation of wounded soldier that are made out of combat. The figures are quite close that those on your joke. That would mean around 40 000 people wounded or so in the rank of the attacker, which is a significant portion of the troops that were available estimated between 100 000 and 200 000 if you factor in the police that were brought in to handle the protests in the controlled territories that is not really deployed since there is not much conquered territories. ( no source, numbers are my personnal order of magnitude after reading many articles ).

Zentay wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:01 pm
The regime change that I think could happen is that Putin is removed as leader by his own people. Whoever comes afterwards can blame all bad things on Putin and hopefully create a better Russia that can get along with the rest of the world.
That would be the west's prefered way to "write" the history if they could. It would seem "legitimate". The more negative scenario would be that Putin isolate himself even more by frightening the moderate and opposition, making them flee, or putting them in jail and/or holding them responsible for the failure of the invasion. And keep only like-minded people at responsability, doubling-down in a way there are some signs of this happening says some authors, they say Putin made sure heads of institutions are loyal to him personnaly and those that aren't are not many to have responsability/recognition to potentially emerge as alternative. Maybe 1 man having so much power is not a good idea no matter the man since it's still one human after all.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

Heard very good quote today:
"russian empire won all their wars only when Ukraine was with them when half of soviet officers were Ukrainians."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Paskevich
Worth investigating.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by FuryoftheStars »

So the Russian government is now saying that they primarily just wanted the Donbas region? Am I understanding that right?

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022 ... bas-region
”… focus our core efforts on achieving the main goal, the liberation of Donbas.”

I feel like this just further confirms that they’ve been lying about their goals and reasons. Whatever they need to say to justify and save face….

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:42 pm
So the Russian government is now saying that they primarily just wanted the Donbas region? Am I understanding that right?

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022 ... bas-region
”… focus our core efforts on achieving the main goal, the liberation of Donbas.”

I feel like this just further confirms that they’ve been lying about their goals and reasons. Whatever they need to say to justify and save face….
Yes original claims from 24-25th February and now this.
Very interesting change of events.
I guess fake news factory knows its limits when coffins start flooding.
Also interesting mentions is "phases" of war. Prior to this it was "3 day blitzkrieg" with no phases at all.
Also that means "demilitarisation and denazification" is complete and russian trolls can sleep peacefully.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by mmmPI »

enterisys wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:57 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:42 pm
So the Russian government is now saying that they primarily just wanted the Donbas region? Am I understanding that right?

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022 ... bas-region
”… focus our core efforts on achieving the main goal, the liberation of Donbas.”

I feel like this just further confirms that they’ve been lying about their goals and reasons. Whatever they need to say to justify and save face….
Yes original claims from 24-25th February and now this.
Very interesting change of events.
I guess fake news factory knows its limits when coffins start flooding.
Also interesting mentions is "phases" of war. Prior to this it was "3 day blitzkrieg" with no phases at all.
Also that means "demilitarisation and denazification" is complete and russian trolls can sleep peacefully.
The ensuing document is the earliest known peace treaty in world history.[40] The peace treaty was recorded in two versions, one in Egyptian hieroglyphs, the other in Hittite, using cuneiform script; both versions survive. Such dual-language recording is common to many subsequent treaties. This treaty differs from others, in that the two language versions are worded differently. While the majority of the text is identical, the Hittite version says the Egyptians came suing for peace and the Egyptian version says the reverse.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_ ... e_Hittites

Interesting piece of history eh ? The oldest trick in the book. The event is often inflated and told as a myth/story of a pharaoh who loses a war and almost all of his army, and then write steles where he proclaim his victory and said he then captured some of the ennemy people and forced them to live in a piece of his land while the other people were just trying to migrate, won the war, and susquently settled where then wanted. When i was told the story it was emphasized that at the time people where only told the news from those steles, otherwise it would just be crazy rumour with no evidence that people propagated, such as the war was lost, but since the stele said otherwise they eventually believed them.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... pment.html

Number of vehicule lost and pictures to identify them/proof :
Russia - 1878, of which: destroyed: 930, damaged: 35, abandoned: 228, captured: 685

Although those images are not authentified by 3 sources that still gives an idea of the numbers.

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