We support Ukraine

[Rubeus]

You posted factually inacurate information, and misquoted person, then not responding to their question, after calling one person low IQ.

You can try to blame the others for not having a logic dialog instead of confronting your ignorance and self-contradiction that is not going to lower you credibility anymore.

If I misquoted you, it was accidental. And it should be obviously so. Yes, I called someone's statement low-IQ and a lukewarm take. That is a way to say that wasn't a well-thought out statement. And it wasn't.

I put my reasons for not wanting to support Ukraine. Perhaps, some of the information is wrong. Probably a lot of yours is as well. But the part that is irritating me is this "you don't like these guys, so you are with those guys" mindset. It's clearly a false dichotomy and the very basis of every argument you 2 have made - including many of the statements you make in the second part of the above quoted post.

How's this, edited for optimal bluntness: let them fight. Let them kill each other. That's my stance. Right there. They can both go die. My past statements were from a standpoint of why I don't care about Ukraine, but maybe this is blunt enough now for you to understand it's not about supporting Russia, either.

From that standpoint, why should I support Ukraine or Russia? Why should I support either one? Why does one or the other deserve my resources when every country in the world is going through economic hardships? Why should anyone get involved with the politics and killing of these 2 countries? Why should they be supported over the countries in the Middle East and Africa that are constantly at war?

My answer is that we shouldn't try to help - let them work out their own issues amongst themselves. The only good thing I can foresee coming of this is the price of illegal guns on the black market are dropping significantly as arms traders in Ukraine sell them off. Even Stingers dropped from $50,000 to $30,000 so far - and I've always wanted one.

[enterisys]

It can't possibly be that people have different ethical concerns from yourselves, and therefore you must assign a role as a troll or a Russian propagandist. No need for logical dialog here, right?

You're the one avoiding meaningful conversation and responding with valid arguments to support your opinion. Right now it's just copy paste from banned in Europe russian military tv. Though I'm sincerely surprised you did not mention naZi butcher Bandera.

The fact that you 2 are stuck in this dichotomy is sad - it seems the best anyone can come up with is the "Russia is evil" talking points(AKA propaganda from the other side) rather than a logical reason why I should support the defense of a nation that nobody cared about previously. I really wish you could use your brains a little better. Discussing things with warmongers is never pleasant. And yes, you are acting like warmongers. I gave up reading and responding to the replies.

Is that so?
Did you know that if person resorts to insults during discussion it's because subconscious "I" feels threatened, so it disables parts of brain reasoning because brain is starting to suspect/realise that presented arguments significantly contradict with previously recorded memories, resulting in internal conflict? It is slightly similar to when human's brain turns off when presented with fear of immediate death, kicking in primal survival instincts.

Anyway. The point:

I don't support Ukraine. I don't support my country or any other country funding them with money or weapons, and I don't even like my money being used towards medical aid to support casualties in a pointless battle. I wish the whole thing would have stayed mired in obscurity for the rest of the world as it did when Russia annexed Crimea.

And I think it's a mistake for a company to politicize a previously unpolitical business in such a way.

Tell me where you live I'll come annex your car and dog, you wouldnt mind right?

I put my reasons for not wanting to support Ukraine. Perhaps, some of the information is wrong. Probably a lot of yours is as well. But the part that is irritating me is this "you don't like these guys, so you are with those guys" mindset. It's clearly a false dichotomy and the very basis of every argument you 2 have made - including many of the statements you make in the second part of the above quoted post.

Wrong.
You're with those guys because you copy paste their fake shit to factory game forum.

From that standpoint, why should I support Ukraine or Russia? Why should I support either one? Why does one or the other deserve my resources when every country in the world is going through economic hardships? Why should anyone get involved with the politics and killing of these 2 countries? Why should they be supported over the countries in the Middle East and Africa that are constantly at war?

Because it's fucking next door and it is not your typical "Middle East and Africa" gunfight conflicts but a fullscale war with every conventional and unconventional weapons, supported by war crimes and genocides.

My answer is that we shouldn't try to help - let them work out their own issues amongst themselves. The only good thing I can foresee coming of this is the price of illegal guns on the black market are dropping significantly as arms traders in Ukraine sell them off. Even Stingers dropped from $50,000 to $30,000 so far - and I've always wanted one.

And russian T72 is even cheaper, thanks to putin for providing them to Ukraine black market dealers.
/sarcasm

[mmmPI]

If I misquoted you, it was accidental. And it should be obviously so. Yes, I called someone's statement low-IQ and a lukewarm take. That is a way to say that wasn't a well-thought out statement. And it wasn't.

I put my reasons for not wanting to support Ukraine. Perhaps, some of the information is wrong. Probably a lot of yours is as well. But the part that is irritating me is this "you don't like these guys, so you are with those guys" mindset. It's clearly a false dichotomy and the very basis of every argument you 2 have made - including many of the statements you make in the second part of the above quoted post.

It is prooven that you have posted factually inacurate information, you quoted an article and posted a link to it while at the same time writing something wrong about the article. It's not "perhaps" it's prooven already that you lied.

It's interesting you keep making mistakes saying "you 2", but there are 3 person that already express doubts about your honnesty, ptx0, enterisys and me. that makes it 3.

Now you can say "probably a lot of yours is as well" why would it be ? because it's your opinion ? you didn't care much about factual accuracy, that doesn't mean other people are like you. You can do like me if you want and check for facts, i did check your saying and it was full of lies that i pointed out in details, to which you said you prefer to ignore readng answers ,and then blame me for not engaging in logic dialog.

How's this, edited for optimal bluntness: let them fight. Let them kill each other. That's my stance. Right there. They can both go die. My past statements were from a standpoint of why I don't care about Ukraine, but maybe this is blunt enough now for you to understand it's not about supporting Russia, either.

From that standpoint, why should I support Ukraine or Russia? Why should I support either one? Why does one or the other deserve my resources when every country in the world is going through economic hardships? Why should anyone get involved with the politics and killing of these 2 countries? Why should they be supported over the countries in the Middle East and Africa that are constantly at war?

My answer is that we shouldn't try to help - let them work out their own issues amongst themselves. The only good thing I can foresee coming of this is the price of illegal guns on the black market are dropping significantly as arms traders in Ukraine sell them off. Even Stingers dropped from $50,000 to $30,000 so far - and I've always wanted one.

You don't have to support anyone, you don't even have to voice your opinion in a thread that's called we support Ukraine.

why would you come here and post against Ukraine though ? calling them the same name their aggressor is calling them ? with very little factual accuracy you also tried to lied about zelensky, why ?

You also ignored the treaties that involve other countries that made promises to Ukraine in order to reduce nuclear proliferation. Those countries have made promises and are now following them, what's wrong with that ? you are not involved there, go make your life in the total ignorance of why food prices are so high.

[Rubeus]

(...)

Hold on, let me call my Russian propaganda handler that I apparently have and figure out to how to respond to you.

Got a number for your Ukrainian propaganda machine? You've convinced me I'm entirely wrong, and that I should change sides to make sure I'm on the good side of the meaningless killing.

[mmmPI]

(...)

Hold on, let me call my Russian propaganda handler that I apparently have and figure out to how to respond to you.

Got a number for your Ukrainian propaganda machine? You've convinced me I'm entirely wrong, and that I should change sides to make sure I'm on the good side of the meaningless killing.

Where is the logic argument you are calling for here ?

[Rubeus]

You don't have to support anyone, you don't even have to voice your opinion in a thread that's called we support Ukraine.

why would you come here and post against Ukraine though ? calling them the same name their aggressor is calling them ? with very little factual accuracy you also tried to lied about zelensky, why ?

You also ignored the treaties that involve other countries that made promises to Ukraine in order to reduce nuclear proliferation. Those countries have made promises and are now following them, what's wrong with that ? you are not involved there, go make your life in the total ignorance of why food prices are so high.

The reason I posted here is because I don't agree with a business I like supporting a political war.

I was mistaken about Zelensky leaving. You can call it a lie all you want, but I admitted the point - I was mistaken. I had the date wrong. Now YOU are lying about me lying. Why?

The other treaties were not cited as a reason for invasion, and irrelevant to the situation - but even if they are, I don't care - I still wouldn't want them supporting Ukraine OR Russia.

[mmmPI]

The other treaties were not cited as a reason for invasion, and irrelevant to the situation - but even if they are, I don't care - I still wouldn't want them supporting Ukraine OR Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_ ... Assurances

According to the memorandum,[23] Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they agreed to the following:

Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.[24]
Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine to influence their politics.
Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.[20][25]

You don't want to inform yourself for fear of realizing you were wrong ?

[mmmPI]

I was mistaken about Zelensky leaving. You can call it a lie all you want, but I admitted the point - I was mistaken. I had the date wrong. Now YOU are lying about me lying. Why?

Fourth, Zelensky is touring the United States and doing speaking gigs rather than staying in Ukraine to help the people.

It was not just the date you had wrong, it's just a lie you said. I'm not lying about you, just pointing out your contradiction.

The other treaties were not cited as a reason for invasion, and irrelevant to the situation - but even if they are, I don't care - I still wouldn't want them supporting Ukraine OR Russia.

That's interesting too, when you think about it, it's you recognizing that you consider relevant only the reasons that Russia uses to launch its attack, an you don't care and call irrelevant the reason of why the other countries are involved.

[mmmPI]

I don't even like my money being used towards medical aid to support casualties in a pointless battle. I wish the whole thing would have stayed mired in obscurity for the rest of the world as it did when Russia annexed Crimea.

Now you could wish the whole thing would have stayed mired in obscurity but then you'd be completly ignorant about why the food prices are so high no ? Since you seem to care so much about your money and your little person ?

Also it wouldn't have happened if Russia didn't launched a full scale war involving 200 000 soldier of them right ? i mean if you launch a full scale attack claiming you are fighting to curtail NATO or find USA bioweapon and call the United Nation 3 times for that or claim you are fighting the global west , show simulation of nukes falling on cities populated by millions of people, then it's impossible for things to stay mired in obscurity despite your naive wish don't you think ?

You haven't answer this btw

[enterisys]

Hold on, let me call my Russian propaganda handler that I apparently have and figure out to how to respond to you.

Got a number for your Ukrainian propaganda machine? You've convinced me I'm entirely wrong, and that I should change sides to make sure I'm on the good side of the meaningless killing.

Don't bother, he wont provide anything new that wasn't present by your predecessors in this thread. Just follow them to the door or come back tomorrow with updated agenda. I am sure you can do better than posting outdated cringe.

[Rubeus]

It was not just the date you had wrong, it's just a lie you said. I'm not lying about you, just pointing out your contradiction.

Should the date have been accurate, it would have been an accurate statement. And one could argue that amid rising tensions it was still foolhardy and unbecoming of a leader.
A lie it was not. Drop it.

That's interesting too, when you think about it, it's you recognizing that you consider relevant only the reasons that Russia uses to launch its attack, an you don't care and call irrelevant the reason of why the other countries are involved.

Yes. Russia and Ukraine have been breaking treaties for a long time. Why bother getting involved now instead of the first time there was an escalation? And what does the treaty say the consequences are?
The Minsk accords were the reason Russia gave. I don't know if it's true or not, nor if they were justified in their invasion or not, but it's irrelevant to the point of why I should support a corrupt country in defense of another.

You haven't answer this btw

I know why food prices are high - and the Russia/Ukraine thing is just one piece causing it. The prices had been steadily increasing for over a year. This conflict only had an impact on the fertilizers recently - and this only due to the international reaction to this conflict in the forms of lame duck sanctions. I could go on and on about this topic, but the fact is that it's only a piece. I don't like it - but the only thing that's going to fix it is 1) countries put on their big boy pants and fight for Ukraine, or 2) stop giving Ukraine military aid and let them fall so things can get worked out after.

[mmmPI]

It was not just the date you had wrong, it's just a lie you said. I'm not lying about you, just pointing out your contradiction.

Should the date have been accurate, it would have been an accurate statement.

You had me laugh on this topic which is not easy, congrats.

That's interesting too, when you think about it, it's you recognizing that you consider relevant only the reasons that Russia uses to launch its attack, an you don't care and call irrelevant the reason of why the other countries are involved.

Yes. Russia and Ukraine have been breaking treaties for a long time. Why bother getting involved now instead of the first time there was an escalation? And what does the treaty say the consequences are?
The Minsk accords were the reason Russia gave. I don't know if it's true or not, nor if they were justified in their invasion or not, but it's irrelevant to the point of why I should support a corrupt country in defense of another.

Which part of the budapest memorandum Ukraine broke ?
When did Ukraine threaten to use nukes against Russia ?
When did Ukraine use gas as a mean to pressure Russian politics ?

Why do you listen to the reason Russia gives to attack its neighbour and don't verify if it's true ?

You keep having that chronology problem where Russia attacke Ukraine in MARCH 2014, and the Minsk accords where signed in SEPTEMPBER 2014. Why do you keep repeating that they are the cause of the conflict while they occured in the middle of it ? AFTER Russia started its attack on Ukraine ?

No one ask you to support a country , that's again a strawman. You come here and post lies that are pointed out.

You repeat your selfish and ignorant opinion a lot, that's fine, but also contradictory with your statement that this topic should be ignored.

You haven't answer this btw

I know why food prices are high - and the Russia/Ukraine thing is just one piece causing it. The prices had been steadily increasing for over a year. This conflict only had an impact on the fertilizers recently - and this only due to the international reaction to this conflict in the forms of lame duck sanctions. I could go on and on about this topic, but the fact is that it's only a piece. I don't like it - but the only thing that's going to fix it is 1) countries put on their big boy pants and fight for Ukraine, or 2) stop giving Ukraine military aid and let them fall so things can get worked out after.

This is again very uninformed and misleading :

alltimehigh.png (29.58 KiB) Viewed 2282 times

https://theconversation.com/russias-war ... ggs-178879


1) => Russia threatened several time to use nuclear weapon if another country do intervention, not going to happen
2) => Still refusing to read the treaties ?

[mmmPI]

It was not just the date you had wrong, it's just a lie you said. I'm not lying about you, just pointing out your contradiction.

Should the date have been accurate, it would have been an accurate statement.

You had me laugh on this topic which is not easy, congrats.

Fourth, Zelensky is touring the United States and doing speaking gigs rather than staying in Ukraine to help the people.

4) He did leave a couple times. Example here: https://www.timesofisrael.com/zelensky- ... ring-trip/

Zelensky attends Munich confab despite US warnings Russia may invade while he’s away

No again, it's not the date the problem you just lied there, several things are wrong.

1) Munich is not in the United states why did you say he was touring the United states ?
2) Why did you say "couple time" ?
3) Why do you say you had a mistake on the date ? when obvisouly many things are wrong

Shoud your saying had been true, it wouldn't have been a lie .

[Rubeus]

Look, I'm a farmer. I'm quite painfully aware of what food and fertilizer prices are doing. Your simple graph doesn't take into account all the factors, for instance, food in supply, planting an harvest. The price of mean food production has been going up since last harvest, during which time myself and most other farmers made barely any profit due to pre-set contracts and the prices rising during that time. But I'm sure that's all Russian propaganda, too.

But why are you so militant about supporting this war? Why do you want me to support people dying? Why do you want more death and destruction? You are almost cult-like in your absolute unwillingness to let someone say they do not support this pointless, useless, stupid war. Why is this? Why be so obstinate on wanting this fighting to continue, but not, for instance the US invasion of Afghanistan?

Everything I've said about wanting this to play out between just Russia/Ukraine and de-escalate has been ignored, and there's been no reasons given to justify continuing the pointless killing.

Yet... you want this to continue. For people to continue dying. For other countries to get involved and to cause even more death. This makes no sense. Like you are too wrapped up in wanted to be right to even care what people are saying and doing. What is the end goal? World War III? Nuclear war? What?

[mmmPI]

Look, I'm a farmer. I'm quite painfully aware of what food and fertilizer prices are doing. Your simple graph doesn't take into account all the factors, for instance, food in supply, planting an harvest. The price of mean food production has been going up since last harvest, during which time myself and most other farmers made barely any profit due to pre-set contracts and the prices rising during that time. But I'm sure that's all Russian propaganda, too.

You can read the article from which the graph is extracted, it contain more information that are to be more trusted than your word after your lies about Zelensky touring the US during the war instead of helping Ukrainians and that article you linked dated from before the war mentionning Zelensky asking for help in Munich.

But why are you so militant about supporting this war?

I'm not i suport peace as i posted many times on this thread you didn't read. Supporting peace in the face of an aggression is sometimes siding with the innocent victim of a war of agression. You think indifference is better you expressed it many times, yet you still here trying to tell people that are not indiferrent to human sufering that they are wrong.
proud of yourself ?

Why do you want more death and destruction? You are almost cult-like in your absolute unwillingness to let someone say they do not support this pointless, useless, stupid war.

I have no problem with that calling the war useless and stupid, but you didn't say that though, you lied about zelensky and due to your ignorance of treaties involving other countries you also accused them of things that are not true.

Why is this? Why be so obstinate on wanting this fighting to continue, but not, for instance the US invasion of Afghanistan?

1) i'm against the fighting as i posted many times in this thread !
2) Because the US has withdrawn from Afghanistan so there is no need to argue against it anymore
3) Because this thread is about Ukraine and the 2022 invasion attempt, Factorio didn't exist in 2005 during the Afganisthan war that was part of the United Nation resolution.

The situation on the terrain will evolve, hopefully peace will be restored, the war apologist will eventually have nothing else to say when their madness become unbearable even for their own followers. I can understand then why Ukrainian people don't want to be forgotten, when their attacker is trying to deny their very existence.

I wish the thread would die because it would be history already, because the agression had stopped, because peace is here again and people can focus on not dying instead of killing each other, which as metionned by ptx0 is becoming increasingly difficult increasingly fast for most of world.

Why do you want me to support people dying?

You keep lying in quite a ridiculous way because it's very easy to read the previous thread and realizeit :

No one ask you to support a country , that's again a strawman. You come here and post lies that are pointed out.

You don't have to support anyone, you don't even have to voice your opinion in a thread that's called we support Ukraine.

why would you come here and post against Ukraine though ? calling them the same name their aggressor is calling them ? with very little factual accuracy you also tried to lied about zelensky, why ?

You also ignored the treaties that involve other countries that made promises to Ukraine in order to reduce nuclear proliferation. Those countries have made promises and are now following them, what's wrong with that ? you are not involved there, go make your life in the total ignorance of why food prices are so high.

[mmmPI]

I do NOT support Ukraine, and I would challenge anyone that does. Though, I can get behind supporting those that provide medical aid vs weapons and fighters.

And the reason I posted this in the first place is because I don't like that a non-political business that I spend money with supports a political position I disagree with. As I said, supporting the medical efforts isn't bad - but I'd prefer everyone stay out. This should be treated like the whole Israel/Palestine thing that everyone generally ignores.

So ignoring or empathy for people suffering from conflict ?

I don't even like my money being used towards medical aid to support casualties in a pointless battle. I wish the whole thing would have stayed mired in obscurity for the rest of the world as it did when Russia annexed Crimea.

And I think it's a mistake for a company to politicize a previously unpolitical business in such a way.

Just a reminder that you posted on this thread lies against Ukraine, on a thread called "we support Ukraine" that had not received any message for 3 days, doing so you made it go to in the first page while also attracting fact checking on your lies while saying you would challenge anyone that does support Ukraine, in a thread called "we support Ukraine", super smart eh ? since you are the one talking about IQ and stupid person.

While doing so you also state that the topic should be ignored, which is in total contradiction with your actions of participating in the thread don't you think ?

[mmmPI]

https://www.macrotrends.net/2534/wheat- ... chart-data
Wheat price per bushel :

alltimehighsincewhen.png (37.91 KiB) Viewed 2225 times

pricewherealreadyincreasingandsanctionthing.png (29.11 KiB) Viewed 2225 times

I know why food prices are high - and the Russia/Ukraine thing is just one piece causing it. The prices had been steadily increasing for over a year. This conflict only had an impact on the fertilizers recently - and this only due to the international reaction to this conflict in the forms of lame duck sanctions. I could go on and on about this topic

The war started the 24th of february, the conflict contrary to your words had direct and significant impact on wheat prices BEFORE any sanctions were taken, just knowing that there is a war is enough for investor to understand that there will be devastation and that food crisis is looming, some of them buy to secure food for their population, some of them to speculate and make money. Your argument of the prices steadily increasing for over a year can be heard but when you put numbers on it and try to be precise , one has to realize it's full of crap no ?

[ptx0]

That's a nice low-IQ, lukewarm take. I have to support one, huh? I'm either a Russian or a Ukranian? I can't be a Spaniard, a German, an American, or a freaking Somalian? I can't not want a war at all? Well, screw you and pushing your 100% false dichotomy

And so let me clarify: Screw the corrupt Ukraine regime.
Screw the Russians for starting another crappy war.
Screw the globalists for encouraging the war by sending weapons.
And in particular, screw people like you that are telling people that they HAVE to support one side or the other. Doubly so for this one.
I do not support the war, and I do not support Ukraine. I do not think money and weapons should be given to Ukraine, and I do not think money and weapons should be given to Russia.

firstly, no need to insult anothers' intelligence. that's actually against the rules of this forum and the mods like Koub probably won't appreciate it.

secondly, you sound super privileged. privileged enough to be able to ignore all of this. to critique everyone and feel morally superior. to act as if sending weapons for Ukraine's defense is "encouraging a war".

just come out and tell us that you don't believe in Ukraine's sovereignty.

you don't have to like Ukraine, you don't have to support them. you don't have to choose a side. but you did that yourself. by coming and saying "I do not support Ukraine", in a 2-party war, this is easily determined who you implicitly want to win.

"screw Russia for starting another crappy war" is a greatly dismissive tone to take to something where real humans are actually dying.

i might have a lukewarm low-IQ take but at least i'm not coming off as a psychopath here.

[FuryoftheStars]

Djmixxx v2

[enterisys]

Djmixxx v2

Nah, this ruskibot gave up too easy, we need some professional propaganda abuser.