We support Ukraine

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enterisys
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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:31 pm
Since 2005, the frontal attack on the Russian language has commenced in all areas of social life, first of all in education and the media. The process continued but was slowed down after Yanukovych came to power in 2010. In 2012, as a preparation for another electoral cycle, the team of Yanukovych had backed the Kivalov-Kolesnichenko Language Law (K-K) that elevated the status of the Russian language in those regions where it has been used by the majority of population, however, without imposing it where the apparent region majority would oppose that elevation. That law was in full accordance with the norms of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages and, as surveys demonstrated, such a compromise was supported by the explicit majority of the society and had entirely met the recommendations by the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe from 7 July 2010 on providing languages with more rights, particularly in higher education, electronic media, and local government bodies (Council of Europe, 2010). Nevertheless, both public support (albeit unspoken) and recommendations by European experts did not hinder the opposition from launching a campaign against the K-K law. All opposition parties in the Verkhovna Rada soon had a common language bill advanced that, in fact, presupposed total Ukrainisation.
Since 2005, the frontal attack on the Russian language has commenced in all areas of social life, first of all in education and the media. The process continued but was slowed down after Yanukovych came to power in 2010. In 2012, as a preparation for another electoral cycle, the team of Yanukovych had backed the Kivalov-Kolesnichenko Language Law (K-K) that elevated the status of the Russian language in those regions where it has been used by the majority of population, however, without imposing it where the apparent region majority would oppose that elevation. That law was in full accordance with the norms of the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages and, as surveys demonstrated, such a compromise was supported by the explicit majority of the society and had entirely met the recommendations by the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe from 7 July 2010 on providing languages with more rights, particularly in higher education, electronic media, and local government bodies (Council of Europe, 2010). Nevertheless, both public support (albeit unspoken) and recommendations by European experts did not hinder the opposition from launching a campaign against the K-K law. All opposition parties in the Verkhovna Rada soon had a common language bill advanced that, in fact, presupposed total Ukrainisation.
But because them being in minority such law was not supported in mass, and K-K law remained legal before, and after the events of 2014-2015.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by makrom »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:09 pm

It sounds, that Europe was so naive. Probably yes. But it doesn't answer the question, why it failed and who exactly spreaded the fatal sparks. All in all, i wouldn't call it a big win for Europe.

Regarding NATO expansion:
1962 Cuba also agreed to install sovjet missiles. It did not happen in end, because both sides (Sovjet and USA) made a compromise, which likely prevented the 3rd WW. Currently I miss those types of compromise efforts.
The win is compared to how much they would lose in the long run by continuing to help Russia's economy. Fortunately it ended while Russia is still an economic dwarf.
As for the Monroe Doctrine, that was a relict from the cold war, when not only delivery methods were much different but also the geopolitical composition. If it wasn't for Russia's dumb paranoia about the rest of the world being out to get them, this whole conflict wouldn't even exist any longer. Unlike many (but not all) other countries out of the Eastern Bloc, they failed miserably to transform into a democracy which could become part of the civilized world, and instead became a kleptocratic dictatorship.
In this constitution, it's absolutely no wonder they are afraid of the West, after all, they incorporate pretty much everything the West despises. And what do leaders of such failed states usually do to address their problem? They start building up some patriotic identity nonsense. Russia this, Slavic that, blame everyone else, kill the free press, the opposition, threaten everyone with nukes and so on.
This is the pile of junk Russia is for the rest of the world, and it should act accordingly. All Russians who want to escape this nightmare should be welcomed with open arms, but for that regime, let's just let them have their dream of building up an independent economy.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by makrom »

Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:02 pm
This is also true for Russia.

After all these sanctions, they understand that it is necessary to develop their industry, and not buy everything abroad.

But in Europe there are no resources that are in Russia and our position is not so advantageous.
I deeply hope Russia actually believes that and goes through with it. While the best parts of the Eastern Bloc jumped ship as soon as they could, I'm sure this vision of Soviet Union reloaded will become a great success.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by makrom »

Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:57 pm
makrom wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:41 pm
Oh, they haven't destroyed absolutely everything they invaded? This clearly proves that they must be the good guys.
But what about the information that Russia is destroying cities? Or not all cities? what then? maybe not destroying?
I'm sorry, where did you get the idea that Russia is supposed to be destroying all cities? Or are you trying to deduct from the fact that they aren't destroying all cities they aren't destroying any cities? Reasoning over 9000...
Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:57 pm
makrom wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:41 pm
Yes those evil Ukrainian Nazis, destroying their own cities just because they don't want their people to be freed by the peace loving Russians.
There is a big difference between unmotivated shelling of cities and shelling in battle for me.
Have you lost context? "strategy for the defense of cities" and all that?

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Djmixxx »

makrom wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:07 pm
I deeply hope Russia actually believes that and goes through with it. While the best parts of the Eastern Bloc jumped ship as soon as they could, I'm sure this vision of Soviet Union reloaded will become a great success.
I don't really believe in it. for the development of a normal society, orders and prohibitions are not enough, you need a desire (you can read numerous stories about trying to start a business from scratch in Russia)
As a result, there will be another Soviet Union in which you need to do, but you don’t want to do
Last edited by Djmixxx on Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Djmixxx »

makrom wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:03 pm
I have no illusions about the dictatorship in Russia. But also a laugh at western values.

Corporate collusion, a ban on the media (I myself want to decide what to watch) corruption.
All this is enough in Europe. Of course not in quantities like in Russia or Ukraina
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by gGeorg »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:04 am
Disclaimer: The next is my own perception, probably not 100% accurate

It's interesting who is profiting and who is not profiting from this war:
- Ukrain -> Ultra big no
- Russia -> Big no, economics, sanctions, lost of reputation
- Europe -> Medium to big no, due to economics, forced rearmament, energy shortage, risk of bigger war
- China/India -> Neutral?
- 3rd world -> Big no, due to food crisis
- USA/Canada -> Big yes, because of enhanced economies, exporting gas/arms
- Other oil/gas countries -> Yes

Interesting also, that suddenly CETA is back into consideration. I wonder, when TTIP, or how they will call it, will be discussed.
Well, you also need consiider "profit" as an option that US-EU politiics can use for explain why citizens suffer 20% inflation and general loss QoL. There is also big game. Ukraine is just a peon.

US FED printed last year about 25% dolars which ever existed. This mindblowing amount of money created from thin air, tend to spread for a while, then inflation starts. It is known process. So govermannt need someone to blame.
Surprisngly, Mr. Zelensky and his team, pupet of CIA, created a serious threat to Russia, include masacre of ethnic russians and promise of Nuclear attack.
Surpringly, Russia internal situation strugle with many US-liberal-fallowers in govermant structure.
In this situation, a "win in little war" is needed on both sides. War is great excuse for any govermant to do stuff.
It is not about immediate economic gain, but raather reshufle positions, strenghten defense.
In the West, it is about supress people and remove their welth, becouse of "evil Russia/evil Sadam/evil MTV/ evil whatever".
In Russia, it is about suppress 5th column and highlight traditional values for people.

This war is not about ukrain, or their people. In fact both sides of conflict don't give a damn about them. ;)
Last edited by gGeorg on Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by mmmPI »

gGeorg wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:20 pm
In the West, it is about supress people and remove their welth, becouse of evil Russia.
In Russia, it is about suppress 5th column and highlight traditional values for people.
As simple as that. Didn't you hear the words of the czar ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6XzvxO9rl4

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Djmixxx »

makrom wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:08 pm
Have you lost context? "strategy for the defense of cities" and all that?
Defend at the cost of the lives of civilians?

Why is the video full of columns of refugees from these cities towards Russia now? Where are these videos from the Ukrainian side from beginning of march? Did Russia open the corridors and start bombing them? and what is not bombing now? no one interferes now
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by mmmPI »

Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:30 pm
Where are these videos from the Ukrainian side from beginning of march?
Most likely at the exact same location ? you messed up your bookmark ?

Map_Ukraine_Refugees.jpg
Map_Ukraine_Refugees.jpg (239.73 KiB) Viewed 2684 times

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

gGeorg wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:20 pm
In the West, it is about supress people and remove their welth, becouse of "evil Russia/evil Sadam/evil MTV/ evil whatever".
I think you mean russia "evil West/evil Zelenskyy/evil Propaganda/ evil whatever".
For a "west" person russia is so insignificant that they really never talk about it. Look at this pathetic attempt to conquer Ukraine.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:30 pm
Defend at the cost of the lives of civilians?

Why is the video full of columns of refugees from these cities towards Russia now? Where are these videos from the Ukrainian side from beginning of march? Did Russia open the corridors and start bombing them? and what is not bombing now? no one interferes now
Isn't it main function of army to defend its citizens? And not attack other citizens.
ministry of attack of russia is obviously a special case and should be studied separately.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Djmixxx »

enterisys wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:41 pm
Isn't it main function of army to defend its citizens? And not attack other citizens.
and from whom then to protect?
enterisys wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:41 pm
ministry of attack of russia is obviously a special case and should be studied separately.
You can discuss as much as you like, but the process is underway. And why does the attacking side do more for protection of civilians than the defending side?
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by gGeorg »

mmmPI wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:38 pm

Map_Ukraine_Refugees
Where is your map from ? Is it one of yours list of independent NGO's funded by CIA and European commision?

BTW: I am from Czech rep. We have 400 000 of them officially, and another about 200 000 illegals. Where are those ?
Do you know that currently every 15th individual in Czech rep. has Ukraine citizenship ?

People flee from Ukraine becouse of their own govermant. The country is systematicaly ruined for at least 10 years. Now, they have an option to flee country without any papers, so they do.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Djmixxx »

mmmPI wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:38 pm
Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:30 pm
Where are these videos from the Ukrainian side from beginning of march?
Most likely at the exact same location ? you messed up your bookmark ?


Map_Ukraine_Refugees.jpg
and how many of them are from eastern Ukraine?
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by mmmPI »

gGeorg wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:54 pm
Where is your map from ? Is it one of yours list of independent NGO's funded by CIA and European commision?
Yes Russia fund it too, it's written in the bottom left the source is the UN agency for refugee it's world propaganda for human beings

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by Djmixxx »

gGeorg wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:54 pm
Do you know that currently every 15th individual in Czech rep. has Ukraine citizenship ?

People flee from Ukraine becouse of their own govermant. The country is systematicaly ruined for at least 10 years. Now, they have an option to flee country without any papers, so they do.
While I was in Prague last week, I heard Russian very often and only a couple of times Ukrainian. Why do you have so many Russian speakers?
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by mmmPI »

Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:54 pm
and how many of them are from eastern Ukraine?
It's not written on the map they count 1 human as 1 human i think, no matter their age, gender or place they live

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by mmmPI »

Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:57 pm
While I was in Prague last week, I heard Russian very often and only a couple of times Ukrainian. Why do you have so many Russian speakers?
The original post refers to the Czechoslovakia invasion by the USSR in 1968

enterisys
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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

gGeorg wrote: ↑
Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:54 pm
Where is your map from ? Is it one of yours list of independent NGO's funded by CIA and European commision?

BTW: I am from Czech rep. We have 400 000 of them officially, and another about 200 000 illegals. Where are those ?
Do you know that currently every 15th individual in Czech rep. has Ukraine citizenship ?

People flee from Ukraine becouse of their own govermant. The country is systematicaly ruined for at least 10 years. Now, they have an option to flee country without any papers, so they do.
BTW you're not since you do only grammar mistakes a russian would do.
Yes, those women with children and old people surely migrate there to find work. And yes again you need passport to cross border?

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