Friday Facts #382 - Logistic groups

[Qon]

Or inserter arm. Spidertron legs were inserter arms in the prototypes. And the base would just translate along a rail system that could also be a base for a new kind of transport system.

Would be cool with new types of logistics. Rail with turning radius similar to belts, with some kind of mining carts that drive without separate locomotive units. Would be used like a hybrid of belts and trains, slightly faster and smarter version of cars on belts and throughput between belts and rails. And the arm animation on the contruction wagons could be very simple.

But it seems like SA won't add any new logistics alternatives.

I believe you got a little carried away.

The robot construction arm is not a huge project. All the functionality already exists, rails, temporary stops, roboports etc can all be repurposed. Could almost be done with the mod api, if other rail sections could be defined. Yes it would require some graphics, but that's not an issue. They have excellent artists.

I don't think they will do it, and the mine carts for logistics even less likely. I'm not "getting carried away", the extension promises to double the content so new logistics systems to play with is a reasonable ask. That is the core of the game. But I'm also not delusional about them adding stuff like this on a whim just because I described something I think would be cool. Anyways, platforms, rockets and rail bridges are new logistics options.

There are several constrictions to keep in mind: Space Age is an expansion with a limited time window before release, the most recent version of the space platform's construction animation feels wrong somehow for a Factory Simulation video game, and I am trying hard to come up with a suggestion that re-use existing codes/art to keep the time it takes to implement short.

Hence, the Space Construction-only Drone concept.

A slightly different graphics for an entity that was purposefully removed is not a good idea. They have the time to do it, they set their own schedule and release time. They have worked for years(?) now on the expansion and it's still about a year away minimum. You coming up with a way for them to be lazy is not helpful, you are just giving them excuses to not actually add stuff. We want a good expansion, not a hurried one. But yes I do understand the concept of asking for things that give the most effect for the least amount of work to be efficient, especially late in the process. But now the goal is to not have the flying bots, so I'm considring things which would have different gameplay.

As cool as your suggestions are, it does run into multiple issues.

Disagree. Or, there are certainly tradeoffs, but I don't agree with your points because I don't think you understood my suggestion properly. I don't blame you, I kept my description short and I would need graphics to properly convey the full picture since these things are not so simple.

There is no zero-width (it would have to go between Space Platform buildings to get somewhere, and space/mass are at a premium) movement between tiles mechanic that I know of.

Not 0 width. They would be like trains with "belts" as rails (not actually belts, just 1x1 sections instead of 2x2 and turn radius of a single tile like belts, but maybe 2x2 tiles for a turn would be better?). The locomotives and cargo wagons combined into 1 unit. Maybe not signaled, they just don't "run into" each other (that means, no explosive collisions), so more like cars on belts or items on belts. Switches instead of splitters, carts choosing which way they go like locomotives.

But there are "0 width" inserters and rail signals added by mods, it's not impossible. But that's not necessary, the construction arm is long enough to reach past a few buildings.

New art/animation for this 'hybrid of belt and train with a ConstructionArm attached' would have to be created partially from scratch for the final product.

Yes. Way simpler than current rail graphics though. Only cardinal directions, carts short enough that they don't require nearly the same details trains have. Carts might not even link up and are shorter, so you have don't have the same issues with maintaining same length N/S and W/E.

Suppose a Space Platform is partially damaged and broken into pieces without any space platform physically connecting them.

Not sure we will be allowed to connect parts or if separate parts would just disintegrate?

How would the ConstructionArm reach the disconnected platforms to re-purpose the space platform to repair the connections? A Space Construction Drone using air-less propulsion in space neatly bypasses this issue by going there directly and back to the Space Platform Hub.

Either the platform parts are close enough and there's rail for the arm base close enough to the gap that the arm can fill in the missing platform tiles, or the part you have control over is iteratively extended, along with the rail on it for the construction arm (by the arm itself) until the first condition is true. This is same as what's shown in the FFF, iterated expansion.

Yes, the flying space drone bypasses this issue. That is the problem, it is too convenient. The goal of the arm is to add a gameplay mechanic and infrastructure requirements for expanding the platform. The arm is further away from the flying space drone than the FFF build process, it's less magic and less convenient. But it's not meant to be frustrating, the inconvenience is more like how really large blueprints on Nauvis need to be designed with roboports in them so that the bots can actually build them.

Flying robots on the planet are not really "flying" for the most part. Since distances are much longer, the gameplay effect is more like the roboports have long arms, as long as their coverage radius. On platforms everything is much closer so the flying distance of robots is relatively overpowered. That's why a maybe ~8 tile long arm makes sense.

[computeraddict]

The robot construction arm is not a huge project.

You have laid out here what we in the industry like to call "a huge project". I'm happy with all of that being what's going on inside the platform.

[XT-248]

The robot construction arm is not a huge project.

*snipped*

I am not going to quote everything.

You have laid out here what we in the industry like to call "a huge project". I'm happy with all of that being what's going on inside the platform.

I agree that WUBE would likely not go for something, in my opinion, better off as a standalone non-minor DLC project when they are not already busy working on a new expansion.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing this as a mod if someone does it.


This is why I tried to keep the number of rework and new art/graph to a minimum by re-using construction drones to show better where objects under construction are coming from.

The scope of your suggestion would necessarily require WUBE to rework and tweak the space platform puzzle gameplay, which takes time simply because adding a physical two-tile-wide trains/wagons/construction-arm with space-rails to this already cramped Space Platform has a long list of knock-on effects.

FFF 381 Animated GIF of a cramped Space Platform

It would also overrule the "no-vehicle" rule mentioned in FFF #381. Train <-> Construction-arm attached to a hybrid Train/Wagon. Then people would be able to pull inventory out of the wagon with inserters.

Construction Drones in space do not have such constrictions or restrictions to consider that would change the scope of Space Platform Puzzle gameplay.

[Qon]

The robot construction arm is not a huge project.

You have laid out here what we in the industry like to call "a huge project". I'm happy with all of that being what's going on inside the platform.

Yes all of it combined is a lot. Playtesting it even more. But just rendering an arm (inserter arm) between the hand (contruction bot) is trivial. What I said wasn't the whole thing, it's just the arm since that was claimed to have been a big deal.

The code to route the wagon with the arm base to the right rail and smart planning to do it efficiently could become huge, but even a dumb system could work well since distances are small.

There would be some code required to have multiple construction layers for different purposes that might be tricky to do with the api, but shouldn't be necessarily hard for Wube.

[Qon]

I agree that WUBE would likely not go for something, in my opinion, better off as a standalone non-minor DLC project when they are not already busy working on a new expansion.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing this as a mod if someone does it.

The scope of your suggestion would necessarily require WUBE to rework and tweak the space platform puzzle gameplay, which takes time simply because adding a physical two-tile-wide trains/wagons/construction-arm with space-rails to this already cramped Space Platform has a long list of knock-on effects.

It would also overrule the "no-vehicle" rule mentioned in FFF #381. Train <-> Construction-arm attached to a hybrid Train/Wagon.

Carts for logistics are buffering, so that wouldn't fit the vision. That's the strongest argument against it.

The carts for construction arm aren't vehicles in the sense that they don't break the other rules that were the reason vehicles aren't allowed.
For construction that wouldn't break the buffering rule. And they wouldn't be as heavy as trains so quite dissimilar.

Would be cool if made as a mod, but it would require so much Lua scripting it'snot worth it if we don't get moddable train and rail mechanisms.

[redKnightKS]

We have a limit of 1000 kg per launch and the players are not allowed to carry anything with them. But what happens to anything in their personal crafting queue on a launch?

[XT-248]

Carts for logistics are buffering, so that wouldn't fit the vision. That's the strongest argument against it.

The carts for construction arm aren't vehicles in the sense that they don't break the other rules that were the reason vehicles aren't allowed.
For construction that wouldn't break the buffering rule. And they wouldn't be as heavy as trains so quite dissimilar.

Would be cool if made as a mod, but it would require so much Lua scripting it'snot worth it if we don't get moddable train and rail mechanisms.

Let's go with your hypothetical scenario and say that carts are not vehicles. What is bringing the object being built to the construction site where the arm is located?

IE: The arm/cart has an inventory slot, or another cart ferries the object to build to the arm/cart at a construction site.

In both cases, the cart has an inventory slot that can be used as a buffer, which is a no-go. It is not that the cart is a vehicle but has to have an inventory slot that can be used like a chest.


Construction Drones have a small internal storage that doesn't interact with inserters. Unless you count logistics chests, and those are banned by default. Construction Drones don't need logistic chests (see repair kit inside of Roboport).

Space Platform Hub can act as a hybrid Roboport/pickup/dropoff spot, removing the need for logistic chests and not impacting the space platform puzzle gameplay.

[mmmPI]

Space Platform Hub can act as a hybrid Roboport/pickup/dropoff spot, removing the need for logistic chests and not impacting the space platform puzzle gameplay.

What would be the point of allowing only construction robots ? Forcing the player to use robots in space to expand the platform when now it doesn't seem necessary ? no thank you
Repairing the platform whereas for now we don't know how it's done when the platform gets damage by asteroids ? That would change the gameplay no ?

[XT-248]

What would be the point of allowing only construction robots ? Forcing the player to use robots in space to expand the platform when now it doesn't seem necessary ? no thank you

Did you miss my earlier posts? This post that you quoted is part of a larger conversation.

The person you replied to was giving WUBE constructive criticism on the space platform construction's animation (what we have seen so far of a work-in-progress, that is).

I agree it looks too "magic-y" and doesn't fit the theme of a Factorio Engineer who just launched a rocket and suddenly discovered how to make grey-goo/nanite technology work. "Just because."

*snipped*

The rest can be tweaked to be not too tedious, balanced, and fun. Anything not implemented or mentioned here can be abstracted so as not to impact the in-game experience.

The Space Platform Construction animation doesn't look good thematically and does a poor job of informing the player where the construction material being placed is coming from.

Repairing the platform whereas for now we don't know how it's done when the platform gets damage by asteroids ? That would change the gameplay no ?

As for damage by an asteroid, I assume the part impacted by asteroids will be destroyed or rendered useless. Similar to destroyed builds or objects on the surface after a biter attack wave.

Space Construction Drone would need to replace the building or a repair kit. It is the same as how you have to replace lost or repair damaged parts on Nauvis in "Factorio 1.0," as far as I know.

TD: LR; the presence of Space Construction Drone will not impact this part of Space Platform repair gameplay either. If anything, it will do a better job of conveying to players where repair kits and replacement builds are coming from.

[Qon]

Carts for logistics are buffering, so that wouldn't fit the vision. That's the strongest argument against it.

The carts for construction arm aren't vehicles in the sense that they don't break the other rules that were the reason vehicles aren't allowed.
For construction that wouldn't break the buffering rule. And they wouldn't be as heavy as trains so quite dissimilar.

Would be cool if made as a mod, but it would require so much Lua scripting it'snot worth it if we don't get moddable train and rail mechanisms.

Let's go with your hypothetical scenario and say that carts are not vehicles. What is bringing the object being built to the construction site where the arm is located?

The hand of the robot arm.

IE: The arm/cart has an inventory slot, or another cart ferries the object to build to the arm/cart at a construction site.

Yes, similar to a construction bot.

In both cases, the cart has an inventory slot that can be used as a buffer, which is a no-go. It is not that the cart is a vehicle but has to have an inventory slot that can be used like a chest.

It can't be used as a buffer, the inventory is not huge and you can't manually insert to it. Just like how belts and bots themselves don't count as buffers for platform.

Construction Drones have a small internal storage that doesn't interact with inserters. Unless you count logistics chests, and those are banned by default. Construction Drones don't need logistic chests (see repair kit inside of Roboport).

Space Platform Hub can act as a hybrid Roboport/pickup/dropoff spot, removing the need for logistic chests and not impacting the space platform puzzle gameplay.

Same with robot arm. The hand is like a construction robot, tethered to a roboport in the cart. It needs a bit more inventory than a construction robot to be useful since you have a handful of them instead of thousands, but the items they carry are only there while in transit to a ghost from the hub or back.

[mmmPI]

Did you miss my earlier posts? This post that you quoted is part of a larger conversation.

The Space Platform Construction animation doesn't look good thematically and does a poor job of informing the player where the construction material being placed is coming from.

I just disagree, maybe you missed my earlier post too because you state your personnal opinion about the look of something as a general truth :

I really like the animation for the platform growth, it has the same feeling as the moving parts of assembly machines.

I think players don't need to be informed where the material are coming from visually because they know it's all loaded in the central hub.

I think it's much better from gameplay if you don't have to use robots to build things in the platform, besides, your idea would still mean the robotports on the platform are built magically.

Repairing the platform whereas for now we don't know how it's done when the platform gets damage by asteroids ? That would change the gameplay no ?

As for damage by an asteroid, I assume the part impacted by asteroids will be destroyed or rendered useless. Similar to destroyed builds or objects on the surface after a biter attack wave.

Space Construction Drone would need to replace the building or a repair kit. It is the same as how you have to replace lost or repair damaged parts on Nauvis in "Factorio 1.0," as far as I know.

TD: LR; the presence of Space Construction Drone will not impact this part of Space Platform repair gameplay either. If anything, it will do a better job of conveying to players where repair kits and replacement builds are coming from.

[/quote]

I disagree with your assumptions here too, in one case ,you have no robots no robotports, no way of repairing the platform maybe ? I assume asteroid will remove some hitpoint of another item when collision occurs, if the asteroid is bigger and or the platform move faster the damages are higher this means platform have limited durability if you do not make them self-sustainable in defense against debris whereas in the other case, you just need to move, wait and repair, move, wait and repair, move, and so on, which i think is not fun.

Too Long Didn't Read : The presence of robots on the space platform is uncessary , would be redundant, and annoying to add everytime you forgot some robots or they get hit by an asteroid and try to repair themselves and get hit even more, and create a swarm of stupid flying drone all reparing themselves while being in the danger zone, like they usually do around fire, i'm thankful it's not the case.

[XT-248]

I just disagree, maybe you missed my earlier post too because you state your personnal opinion about the look of something as a general truth :

I am not the only one who feels this way, either. It seems you are acting like I am alone in thinking, so when that is not the case.

I think it's much better from gameplay if you don't have to use robots to build things in the platform, besides, your idea would still mean the robotports on the platform are built magically.

Space Hub Platform IS a Roboport itself and there will not be a magically built Roboport anywhere else on the platform. Also, the Roboport is a mislabel since in my idea, only Space Construction Drones will be able to do anything and not logistic drones. A roboport can work with both and Space Platform Hub won't.

I disagree with your assumptions here too, in one case ,you have no robots no robotports, no way of repairing the platform maybe ? I assume asteroid will remove some hitpoint of another item when collision occurs, if the asteroid is bigger and or the platform move faster the damages are higher this means platform have limited durability if you do not make them self-sustainable in defense against debris whereas in the other case, you just need to move, wait and repair, move, wait and repair, move, and so on, which i think is not fun.

I think you are overthinking a bit too much.


We don't know what would be used to repair Space Platform and Building's HP. When Space Platforms are en-route to another world, they cannot get any resources from a rocket silo, including but not limited to the equivalent of "space repair kits" and replacement buildings.

Regardless, it still doesn't impact the gameplay flows as you claim it would.

Too Long Didn't Read : The presence of robots on the space platform is uncessary , would be redundant, and annoying to add everytime you forgot some robots or they get hit by an asteroid and try to repair themselves and get hit even more, and create a swarm of stupid flying drone all reparing themselves while being in the danger zone, like they usually do around fire, i'm thankful it's not the case.

How would Space-based drones get any damage from asteroids that they can dodge and ignore?

Where will those space drones encounter "AOE" damage from a fire in space that lacks oxygen for a self-sustaining fire?

What was the last time you forgot to add drones to personal roboport in personal armor or vehicles? Or an extensive logistic planet-bounded network?

The hand of the robot arm.

Yes, similar to a construction bot.

It can't be used as a buffer, the inventory is not huge and you can't manually insert to it. Just like how belts and bots themselves don't count as buffers for platform.

Same with robot arm. The hand is like a construction robot, tethered to a roboport in the cart. It needs a bit more inventory than a construction robot to be useful since you have a handful of them instead of thousands, but the items they carry are only there while in transit to a ghost from the hub or back.

Okay, we have moved from a vehicle on a rail in a cramped space platform to "Construction Arm tethered to a roboport on top of a vehicle on a rail, placed on a cramped space platform, with more inventory slots than a construction bot."

Never mind that Construction Bot can and will carry more than one item at a time. The case will also be true for space construction drones concerning carry capacity.


Okay, that may work for you, but you have indicated earlier that it won't happen.

[mmmPI]

I just disagree, maybe you missed my earlier post too because you state your personnal opinion about the look of something as a general truth :

I am not the only one who feels this way, either. It seems you are acting like I am alone in thinking, so when that is not the case.

It's not because you are not alone that everyone thinks like you do and no-one disagree. The look of the platform is great, in line with the existing graphic albeit a bit more "modern" looking as it's space related, it convey really well the idea that the construction is happening thanks to things inside the platform and it will still be polished as it was annouced in the FFF. I'm not the only one who feels this way either.

Space Hub Platform IS a Roboport itself and there will not be a magically built Roboport anywhere else on the platform. Also, the Roboport is a mislabel since in my idea, only Space Construction Drones will be able to do anything and not logistic drones. A roboport can work with both and Space Platform Hub won't.

i got it the space hub magically appear on platforms that were magically dropped there in space, but then player are forced to use space construction drones but for some reason are not allowed to use logistic robot. I'm really not convinced sorry for the sarcasm.

I disagree with your assumptions here too, in one case ,you have no robots no robotports, no way of repairing the platform maybe ? I assume asteroid will remove some hitpoint of another item when collision occurs, if the asteroid is bigger and or the platform move faster the damages are higher this means platform have limited durability if you do not make them self-sustainable in defense against debris whereas in the other case, you just need to move, wait and repair, move, wait and repair, move, and so on, which i think is not fun.

I think you are overthinking a bit too much.

you argument is invalid as it doesn't relate to the current topic, whereas not adding a situation that leads to frustrating gameplay based on previous experience is a valid argument because it can help adress the choice for the current gameplay options to give to players.

We don't know what would be used to repair Space Platform and Building's HP. When Space Platforms are en-route to another world, they cannot get any resources from a rocket silo, including but not limited to the equivalent of "space repair kits" and replacement buildings.

Regardless, it still doesn't impact the gameplay flows as you claim it would.

If you say "we don't know how repair work' you can't say 'adding construction drone has no impact on gameplay" that's . It MAY VERY WELL have detrimental consequences on the gameplay due to the very simple logic of robots behavior.

Too Long Didn't Read : The presence of robots on the space platform is uncessary , would be redundant, and annoying to add everytime you forgot some robots or they get hit by an asteroid and try to repair themselves and get hit even more, and create a swarm of stupid flying drone all reparing themselves while being in the danger zone, like they usually do around fire, i'm thankful it's not the case.

How would Space-based drones get any damage from asteroids that they can dodge and ignore?

Where will those space drones encounter "AOE" damage from a fire in space that lacks oxygen for a self-sustaining fire?

What was the last time you forgot to add drones to personal roboport in personal armor or vehicles? Or an extensive logistic planet-bounded network?

They can't dodge asteroids, robots have simple behavior for performance reason, if the whole point it to tell player where the material are coming from, it's unecessary complications.

They don't need to encounter AOE, a U shape spaceship where a bot try to cross the middle part would leave it at the mercy of asteroid, once one is damaged, a second one will come and try to repair the first one, and then a third one to repair the second one, and maybe all your robots end up repairing each other and that yield to unpredictable consumption of energy.

Well i'm playing currently a space exploration game with AAI vehicule, so i would say every half an hour or so i'm going to a different planet and i forget something, and when i make a vehicule, that's the same, vehicule have grids and personnal roboports, and one need to add some robots to every vehicule, that's annoying, and if you forget to do so then the vehicule doesn't repair itself so you get an alert that doesnt go away so you need to go to that planet to add the robots to the vehicule, like one forget to add fuel to trains unless it's automated. It's very frequent.

[XT-248]

It's not because you are not alone that everyone thinks like you do and no-one disagree. The look of the platform is great, in line with the existing graphic albeit a bit more "modern" looking as it's space related, it convey really well the idea that the construction is happening thanks to things inside the platform and it will still be polished as it was annouced in the FFF. I'm not the only one who feels this way either.

It is my opinion that it doesn't look great. I have seen other people indicate similar feelings; not everyone comes to the forum.

Would it be surprising that more people discovered the Space Age after the release date and were unhappy about the space platform construction animation?

i got it the space hub magically appear on platforms that were magically dropped there in space, but then player are forced to use space construction drones but for some reason are not allowed to use logistic robot. I'm really not convinced sorry for the sarcasm.

I have been over this point several times before. Not just here on the Factorio forum but on other forums. It is WUBE's rule and not something I just "made" up.

Building rules

They don't want logistic drones, chests, or anything else that could impact or change the Space Platform puzzle gameplay. Construction Drones don't interact with anything on the space platform other than the Space Platform Hub to pick up or drop off buildings/objects to be built or deconstructed.

Simply put, I am making a suggestion that fits within the WUBE's vision for Space Platform puzzle gameplay.

you argument is invalid as it doesn't relate to the current topic, whereas not adding a situation that leads to frustrating gameplay based on previous experience is a valid argument because it can help adress the choice for the current gameplay options to give to players.

Assuming I understand what you are trying to say, my argument is invalid because it is unrelated to this animation GIF posted in the beginning section of FFF #382. This thing?

FFF 382 Space Platform Animation

Your second comment's description indicates that I want a frustrating and unfun gameplay experience. Your description doesn't match what I had in mind: Space Construction Bots fly around without anything damaging them at any point.

If you say "we don't know how repair work' you can't say 'adding construction drone has no impact on gameplay" that's . It MAY VERY WELL have detrimental consequences on the gameplay due to the very simple logic of robots behavior.

They can't dodge asteroids, robots have simple behavior for performance reason, if the whole point it to tell player where the material are coming from, it's unecessary complications.

They don't need to encounter AOE, a U shape spaceship where a bot try to cross the middle part would leave it at the mercy of asteroid, once one is damaged, a second one will come and try to repair the first one, and then a third one to repair the second one, and maybe all your robots end up repairing each other and that yield to unpredictable consumption of energy.

Let me put it plainly as humanly as I can.

Currently, Nauvis Construction Drone flies past everything collision-wise and will not suffer any damage unless it is from AOE effects (Grenades, fire, and biters). Those weapons are disabled or unavailable in space. So my question remains: how would Space Drones die to something that doesn't exist?

Since asteroids have collision (for hitting a space platform section), Space Drones would fly around them from an abstracted gameplay sense, which will not run into any of the issues you brought up. The behavior to ignore collision exists in Space Drones, derived from Nauvis Construction Drones that ignore collision, by collision, as in "I jumped into a tank and drove it into the Oil Refinery resulting to damage to both objects" or "I wasn't looking both ways while walking across a rail when a train kills the player," oops.

Well i'm playing currently a space exploration game with AAI vehicule, so i would say every half an hour or so i'm going to a different planet and i forget something, and when i make a vehicule, that's the same, vehicule have grids and personnal roboports, and one need to add some robots to every vehicule, that's annoying, and if you forget to do so then the vehicule doesn't repair itself so you get an alert that doesnt go away so you need to go to that planet to add the robots to the vehicule, like one forget to add fuel to trains unless it's automated. It's very frequent.

Each half hour?


Look, here is the thing: I have built multiple megabases (Vanilla Factorio and Modified Factorio alike), and whenever I need drones for any reason, I make sure to have them in my personal inventory or some easily accessible place to deploy them. Don't make it more complicated than it has to be.

It is the same for refueling trains; refuel them at every train stop. Just automate it.


Solving for manual interventions gives you more time that can be better spent elsewhere instead of constantly stopping occasionally to fix something with alternative non-manual automation solutions. If an automation solution is impossible, make it easier on yourself and find a way to make it less painful (pre-stock everything even if you don't think you need it, for example).

[mmmPI]

It's not because you are not alone that everyone thinks like you do and no-one disagree. The look of the platform is great, in line with the existing graphic albeit a bit more "modern" looking as it's space related, it convey really well the idea that the construction is happening thanks to things inside the platform and it will still be polished as it was annouced in the FFF. I'm not the only one who feels this way either.

It is my opinion that it doesn't look great. I have seen other people indicate similar feelings; not everyone comes to the forum.

Would it be surprising that more people discovered the Space Age after the release date and were unhappy about the space platform construction animation?

My impression is that 10 person say it look nice, and one person say 10 times it doesn't. And you are that person that keep repeating its opinion. You did it again, several time saying it as a general thing, so here it comes i'm going to state my opinion again so that it's not only the person who dislike the look who keep spamming, the space platform looks real nice, in line with existing graphic, but with a nice touch to make it more modern looking for space related thing, i have seen many people indicate similar feelings on the forum. And of course many people who likes it didn't took the time to write it several time on the forum as you did.

I would be suprised someone who come to say it look nice would come to say it again, and again repeatdly, whereas someone who dislike it may think it's logical to keep repeating its opinion until things changes even if it's not constructive and it could stay forever if things don't change.

They don't want logistic drones, chests, or anything else that could impact or change the Space Platform puzzle gameplay. Construction Drones don't interact with anything on the space platform other than the Space Platform Hub to pick up or drop off buildings/objects to be built or deconstructed.

Simply put, I am making a suggestion that fits within the WUBE's vision for Space Platform puzzle gameplay.

Wube : we don't put drone on space
Suggestion : add construction drone on space

Simply put : i understood your suggestion, more explanation doesn't make it better, i think it's a bad idea.

you argument is invalid as it doesn't relate to the current topic, whereas not adding a situation that leads to frustrating gameplay based on previous experience is a valid argument because it can help adress the choice for the current gameplay options to give to players.

Assuming I understand what you are trying to say, my argument is invalid because it is unrelated to this animation GIF posted in the beginning section of FFF #382. This thing?

No i meant your argument saying "you are overthinking it" is invalid because that's unrelated to the fact that the argument you are trying to counter is true and relate to the topic whereas your coment is ad hominem attack, which means it target me as a person and my behavior, which can show you have no argument about the topic itself.

Argument being robots in space is a hazard.

Let me put it plainly as humanly as I can.
Currently, Nauvis Construction Drone flies past everything collision-wise and will not suffer any damage unless it is from AOE effects (Grenades, fire, and biters). Those weapons are disabled or unavailable in space. So my question remains: how would Space Drones die to something that doesn't exist?

Since asteroids have collision (for hitting a space platform section), Space Drones would fly around them from an abstracted gameplay sense, which will not run into any of the issues you brought up. The behavior to ignore collision exists in Space Drones, derived from Nauvis Construction Drones that ignore collision, by collision, as in "I jumped into a tank and drove it into the Oil Refinery resulting to damage to both objects" or "I wasn't looking both ways while walking across a rail when a train kills the player," oops.

This is not true, you can shoot drone with your gun, it's not only AOE. It's particularly visible in PVP scenario. Drones are entity that can take damage, i don't see why they should be immune to collision with asteroid, while it's easy to pretend they fly above trains. The suggestion to add drones to make it more logical to build on the space platform but making them invincible and also preventing the logistic bot to me make little sense compared to : no bot in space, your suggestion is aking to realism/immersion not gameplay, but it's not realistic nor providing immersion.

Well i'm playing currently a space exploration game with AAI vehicule, so i would say every half an hour or so i'm going to a different planet and i forget something, and when i make a vehicule, that's the same, vehicule have grids and personnal roboports, and one need to add some robots to every vehicule, that's annoying, and if you forget to do so then the vehicule doesn't repair itself so you get an alert that doesnt go away so you need to go to that planet to add the robots to the vehicule, like one forget to add fuel to trains unless it's automated. It's very frequent.

Each half hour?
Look, here is the thing: I have built multiple megabases (Vanilla Factorio and Modified Factorio alike), and whenever I need drones for any reason, I make sure to have them in my personal inventory or some easily accessible place to deploy them. Don't make it more complicated than it has to be.
It is the same for refueling trains; refuel them at every train stop. Just automate it.

Solving for manual interventions gives you more time that can be better spent elsewhere instead of constantly stopping occasionally to fix something with alternative non-manual automation solutions. If an automation solution is impossible, make it easier on yourself and find a way to make it less painful (pre-stock everything even if you don't think you need it, for example).

You asked me and i answered, automating refuel for train is obvisouly something i learned how to do in my 6000 hours of factorio x) also it always happen to me that i forgot to automate the refueling of one particular train when i play, that's a guarantee in a game with 100 + trains that at least one time there will be one that run out of fuel because i didn't realize it wouldn't be refueled given its schedule.

Now try to play with AAI vehicule and diferent planet, sure you can use the equipment gantry to prepare the grid of equiprment for every vehicule, but if you have more than 100 automated vehicule it's guaranteed that there will be one where you forgot to set up the logistic request properly and it doesn't have drones and cannot serve the purpose for which it was built. And with the mod Space Exploration it can happen that you don't build robots on every single one of planets moons an orbits, it's not 5 planets it's more like 500 possible, so you don't have a place where it's easily accessible. I suppose if you go on another planet in the Space Age expansion, that will be the same, when you arrive you don't have robots if you forget them, and if you send a platform into space and you forgot the robots, well its too late, it's annoying, you can't build anything and you get frustrate because the remote interaction is of no use because you forgot the bots.

i think your suggestion is a terrible idea, this is my opinion, it's terrible because it pretend to "make more sense/make it more visible where the material come from", which is hardly necessary, i mean comon there is only 1 hub, where would the material come from ? It adds nothing from gameplay perspective, it forces player to do repetetive thing, always put a little few robots in the platform, it can yield to terrible behavior due to bots simple logic when taking damage and space supposedly a dangerous environment. It is something that you can only forget to do and have bad consequences, but there is no strategy or optimisation or any sense of agency when doing it, you just click a few buttons mindlessly because the game told you to.

Maybe you should post in the suggestion part of the forum, though because that's just my opinion, if you think i didn't explain properly why i think it's a terrible idea i can explain with more details.

[XT-248]

My impression is that 10 person say it look nice, and one person say 10 times it doesn't. And you are that person that keep repeating its opinion. You did it again, several time saying it as a general thing, so here it comes i'm going to state my opinion again so that it's not only the person who dislike the look who keep spamming, the space platform looks real nice, in line with existing graphic, but with a nice touch to make it more modern looking for space related thing, i have seen many people indicate similar feelings on the forum. And of course many people who likes it didn't took the time to write it several time on the forum as you did.

I would be suprised someone who come to say it look nice would come to say it again, and again repeatdly, whereas someone who dislike it may think it's logical to keep repeating its opinion until things changes even if it's not constructive and it could stay forever if things don't change.

This is your post trying to make it seem that I am alone repeating the same comment 10 times when that wasn't the case. I joined a conversation between other people debating the very same topic "How good does the space platform construction animation look?"

Wube : we don't put drone on space
Suggestion : add construction drone on space

Simply put : i understood your suggestion, more explanation doesn't make it better, i think it's a bad idea.

If you genuinely understood my thought process then you should understand that introducing Construction Drones is not going to interfere with the reason why WUBE chose not to have logistic drones on the space platform puzzle gameplay.

Telling me that you think it is a bad idea is just that, an opinion.

No i meant your argument saying "you are overthinking it" is invalid because that's unrelated to the fact that the argument you are trying to counter is true and relate to the topic whereas your coment is ad hominem attack, which means it target me as a person and my behavior, which can show you have no argument about the topic itself.

No, my previous posts that you quoted is not an ad hominem attack.

That was me responding to your "Wait, what about X?" comments relating to repair kits in use by Space Construction Drones. Quoted below.

I disagree with your assumptions here too, in one case ,you have no robots no robotports, no way of repairing the platform maybe ? I assume asteroid will remove some hitpoint of another item when collision occurs, if the asteroid is bigger and or the platform move faster the damages are higher this means platform have limited durability if you do not make them self-sustainable in defense against debris whereas in the other case, you just need to move, wait and repair, move, wait and repair, move, and so on, which i think is not fun.

I respond to the above post that Space Construction Drones has no collision hitbox which asteroid can hit and damage. That is very much relevant to repairing other drones with repair kits in space.

That comment about no-collision was not even remotely targeting you as an individual as a part of ad hominem attacks.

Argument being robots in space is a hazard.

So are gun turrets, laser turrets, inserters, chemical plants, space platform engines, and everything else.

That doesn't mean WUBE should exclude Drones because it is somehow less of a hazard than a Nuclear Reactor, which can and will burn a non-trivial hole in your space platform.

Look at the Nuclear Reactor on the far right in this screenshot

This is not true, you can shoot drone with your gun, it's not only AOE. It's particularly visible in PVP scenario. Drones are entity that can take damage, i don't see why they should be immune to collision with asteroid, while it's easy to pretend they fly above trains. The suggestion to add drones to make it more logical to build on the space platform but making them invincible and also preventing the logistic bot to me make little sense compared to : no bot in space, your suggestion is aking to realism/immersion not gameplay, but it's not realistic nor providing immersion.

I am going to make two quotations from WUBE's Friday Fact Factorio blog.

Building rules
Everything on Space platforms is done via the remote view (no coincidence it was the topic of the last FFF).

And this one as well.

Players traveling to space
Launching yourself to space is done with the same rockets as normal cargo, in the GUI you just choose 'Travel to space' and pick your destination platform. Upon arrival the character will sit safely strapped into the platform hub.

However the weight system implies that the player can potentially hold tons of rockets worth of items in their inventory, so for traveling to space, you can only carry your armor and your guns, nothing else (not even ammo).

Players are incapable of leaving the Space Platform to do PVP with handguns. Much less add ammo to their guns, everything is done via remote view so no walking around, even though you can manufacture ammo.

This is direct from WUBE.


As for realism or being realistic, that was never the goal.

Immersion plays a big role by providing players with immediate feedback about where the buildings/space-platforms are coming from. Space Construction Drones will be aesthetically pleasing to watch while they do their work just as it is on Nauvis.

You asked me and i answered, automating refuel for train is obvisouly something i learned how to do in my 6000 hours of factorio x) also it always happen to me that i forgot to automate the refueling of one particular train when i play, that's a guarantee in a game with 100 + trains that at least one time there will be one that run out of fuel because i didn't realize it wouldn't be refueled given its schedule.

Now try to play with AAI vehicule and diferent planet, sure you can use the equipment gantry to prepare the grid of equiprment for every vehicule, but if you have more than 100 automated vehicule it's guaranteed that there will be one where you forgot to set up the logistic request properly and it doesn't have drones and cannot serve the purpose for which it was built. And with the mod Space Exploration it can happen that you don't build robots on every single one of planets moons an orbits, it's not 5 planets it's more like 500 possible, so you don't have a place where it's easily accessible. I suppose if you go on another planet in the Space Age expansion, that will be the same, when you arrive you don't have robots if you forget them, and if you send a platform into space and you forgot the robots, well its too late, it's annoying, you can't build anything and you get frustrate because the remote interaction is of no use because you forgot the bots.

i think your suggestion is a terrible idea, this is my opinion, it's terrible because it pretend to "make more sense/make it more visible where the material come from", which is hardly necessary, i mean comon there is only 1 hub, where would the material come from ? It adds nothing from gameplay perspective, it forces player to do repetetive thing, always put a little few robots in the platform, it can yield to terrible behavior due to bots simple logic when taking damage and space supposedly a dangerous environment. It is something that you can only forget to do and have bad consequences, but there is no strategy or optimisation or any sense of agency when doing it, you just click a few buttons mindlessly because the game told you to.

Here we go again.

Despite having only one space platform hub, the space construction animation does not inform the player where the objects are coming from (Rocket Silo -> Space Platform Hub -> ??? -> platform grows like an organic cell dividing).

Factorio is all about automation and eliminating repetitive tasks, which I agree with. Yet, you pick an extreme example for repetitive tasks (Space Exploration mod and drones) and say this idea shouldn't be implemented based on a trendy mod that not all players play, much less play the way you do.

Earendel, the author of Space Exploration mod, has indicated that Space Age, WUBE's expansion, is not the same and is far less extreme than the scope of Space Exploration mod—source: FFF #373 Factorio: Space Age. I would venture to say that it is a bad idea to look at your current experience with Space Exploration and make an informed decision on what should or shouldn't be included in the Factorio 2.0 patch and the Space Age expansion.

Maybe you should post in the suggestion part of the forum, though because that's just my opinion, if you think i didn't explain properly why i think it's a terrible idea i can explain with more details.

I am posting in a thread for a blog containing an example of space construction animation and giving constructive criticism feedback.

[mmmPI]

long rant about introducing construction drone to the space platform

I think this idea is not good, i don't think it is fair to say it doesn't interfere with wube vision since we don't know much about the space platform, namely how is the repair is going to be done, it may be overthinking but it's better than the opposite.

I really like the look of the space platform , i like the idea that it's not necessary to add robots and that thing can be built by the space hub it reduce a step that would otherwise be repetitive and tedious, which gives no challenge only to remember to add robots.


I don't think players need to be informed visually where the material are coming from, it's quite obvious since we can't build chest on the platform, and there is only 1 space platform hub.


I don't think something like adding construction robots to space platform add anything to realism or immersion, especially as it make it even more arbitrary-looking restriction that logistic bot are banned, it seem more coherent that all bots be banned.


I would like to point out that part of your arguments were also plain wrong, bots can be damaged by other thing than AOE. You must not have understood my point when i said bots in space must either be made invincible to asteroid, which sucks for immersion and your suggestion seem to only make things more plausible/immersive so it kinda shoot itself in the foot/ is inconsistent to me. Or bots can be damaged by debris /asteroid, which yield unpredictable situation due to the limited smartness of robots, which make them a hazard to use.

I am posting in a thread for a blog containing an example of space construction animation and giving constructive criticism feedback.

That's only my constructive feedback on your comment to inform you that there is a section of the forum dedicated to suggestions, because it would be a shame that such a constructive suggestion of yours be missed along the rest of the feedback, whereas if you make it a suggestion it would allow it to gain visibility for the other person you think will share your views.

I dislike your idea, i think it's not good for the factorio game, i am saying it because you keep explaining your idea as if it was going to convince me, but you don't really answer my points you keep repeating the same things.

Such as : what kind of gameplay value do you think it adds ? to me i would say 0 , using your own word, if it doesn't change WUBE vision, isn't that just a cosmetic/immersion thing ? = no gameplay value, if it has gameplay implication, then your argument about it's not changing WUBE vision doesn't hold.

Why do you think it make more sense to allow only some bots and not the others ? How would you justify that in more coherent way than saying no bots in space because it's more appreciable to play.

To me it feels you pretend it's going to be more realistic/immersive and won't change the gameplay. But it's doing none of that forcing players to add robots seem to me worsening the gameplay, and making things less immersive with bots flying effortlessly wether or not the space plaftorm is moving and requiring new graphics to justify flying without atmosphere, while i'd rather have new mechanics that can be exploited/expanded by modders and that is fast to use without the need for repetitive mindless actions.

[FuryoftheStars]

Everything mmmPi said above here is pretty much spot on from my perspective.

[XT-248]

I think this idea is not good, i don't think it is fair to say it doesn't interfere with wube vision since we don't know much about the space platform, namely how is the repair is going to be done, it may be overthinking but it's better than the opposite.

I really like the look of the space platform , i like the idea that it's not necessary to add robots and that thing can be built by the space hub it reduce a step that would otherwise be repetitive and tedious, which gives no challenge only to remember to add robots.

The problem has been outlined to you several times (not just by me). The aesthetic and theme of how the space platform built new sections look like something beyond an engineer who just launched a rocket into space from scratch/nothing on Nauvis.


If you understood my concept, you would have realized long ago that it would never make space platform gameplay as tedious as you claimed.

The rest can be tweaked to be not too tedious, balanced, and fun. Anything not implemented or mentioned here can be abstracted so as not to impact the in-game experience.

Abstracted means the player doesn't have to worry about it from a gameplay perspective.

For example, Space Platforms have internal power connections between all buildings. So players don't have to worry about abstracted power connection: placing power poles on space platform sections, etc.

You insisted on introducing problems that could have been abstracted in my idea as "But wait, what about X?" opinions.

I don't think players need to be informed visually where the material are coming from, it's quite obvious since we can't build chest on the platform, and there is only 1 space platform hub.

I don't think something like adding construction robots to space platform add anything to realism or immersion, especially as it make it even more arbitrary-looking restriction that logistic bot are banned, it seem more coherent that all bots be banned.

See abstracted thought above.

It doesn't have to make coherent sense to players that logistic drones are banned.

It doesn't make coherent sense to players to have hundreds of oil refineries, or any other large or heavy objects, inside their player's inventory, and the player can somehow walk with such a load.

I would like to point out that part of your arguments were also plain wrong, bots can be damaged by other thing than AOE. You must not have understood my point when i said bots in space must either be made invincible to asteroid, which sucks for immersion and your suggestion seem to only make things more plausible/immersive so it kinda shoot itself in the foot/ is inconsistent to me. Or bots can be damaged by debris /asteroid, which yield unpredictable situation due to the limited smartness of robots, which make them a hazard to use.

Your comment here is another example of something that could have been abstracted as part of my suggestion yet isn't according to you.

The problem is not that AOE or single-target weapons can damage Space Drones.

The problem is that nothing that exists or is usable in space can target and shoot at space drones without overruling one of the existing WUBE rules and restrictions, including but not limited to Drones not having physical collisions.

Are PVP players shooting? They need space suits and to be able to walk around when they shouldn't be able to (outside of mods, that is).

Gun/laser turrets don't see another space platform to be able to shoot at hostile space drones (as far as we know, each space platform is a single instance of Factorrismo style instance without any form of interaction with other space platforms).

I dislike your idea, i think it's not good for the factorio game, i am saying it because you keep explaining your idea as if it was going to convince me, but you don't really answer my points you keep repeating the same things.

Such as : what kind of gameplay value do you think it adds ? to me i would say 0 , using your own word, if it doesn't change WUBE vision, isn't that just a cosmetic/immersion thing ? = no gameplay value, if it has gameplay implication, then your argument about it's not changing WUBE vision doesn't hold.

Like, what?

How many times have I told you indirectly and explicitly that this is a cosmetic/aesthetic change to make it look better? Where are the raw construction materials coming from?

The current animation implies that nanites' mitosis exists, whose technology is unlocked miraculously by the engineer/player launching a rocket without any build-up to that technology.


Then, insisting in the same thoughts that the existence of Space Construction Drones would somehow have gameplay implications as if it was not a cosmetic change-only? Especially when that is not the case here.

Why do you think it make more sense to allow only some bots and not the others ? How would you justify that in more coherent way than saying no bots in space because it's more appreciable to play.

I already went over the obvious counter-point several times above.

But it bears repeating: Factorio's cosmetic/aesthetic doesn't have to make sense to the players. See "oil refineries in player's pocket" above.

To me it feels you pretend it's going to be more realistic/immersive and won't change the gameplay. But it's doing none of that forcing players to add robots seem to me worsening the gameplay, and making things less immersive with bots flying effortlessly wether or not the space plaftorm is moving and requiring new graphics to justify flying without atmosphere, while i'd rather have new mechanics that can be exploited/expanded by modders and that is fast to use without the need for repetitive mindless actions.

That was not a nice characterization of me being pretentious when I have been otherwise genuinely wanting this.


Flying Robot Frame incapable of flying in an atmosphere on a space platform?! What a revolutionary idea I haven't already pointed out indirectly in my first post in this long conversation.

Look at what the engine on the space platform consumes.

Ice + chemical plant = fuel + oxidizer = engine fuel.

Problem solved at least from an abstraction point of view.

This post implies that there is a new second type of drone frame that utilizes Ice + Oxidizer to generate airless-thrust that makes them space-flying capable.


The last bit is purely beating the dead horse at this point in the long conversation we have had. If you think it is going to be tedious then it can be tweaked or abstracted away.

[mmmPI]

I think this idea is not good, i don't think it is fair to say it doesn't interfere with wube vision since we don't know much about the space platform, namely how is the repair is going to be done, it may be overthinking but it's better than the opposite.

I really like the look of the space platform , i like the idea that it's not necessary to add robots and that thing can be built by the space hub it reduce a step that would otherwise be repetitive and tedious, which gives no challenge only to remember to add robots.

The problem has been outlined to you several times (not just by me). The aesthetic and theme of how the space platform built new sections look like something beyond an engineer who just launched a rocket into space from scratch/nothing on Nauvis.

Yes i understand an like the design choice, the expansion is called space age, it involve something more modern, futuristic than the steam engine era of the pre rocket factorio, have you not understand it ?

I really like the rocket platform look for this reason, i'm pretty sure also they said in the FFF that there will be polishing of graphics.


Also adding construction drone to space would not change this at all. Are you taking it as a pretext to spam your disliking of the platform on purpose ?

If you understood my concept, you would have realized long ago that it would never make space platform gameplay as tedious as you claimed.

The last bit is purely beating the dead horse at this point in the long conversation we have had. If you think it is going to be tedious then it can be tweaked or abstracted away.

I think your idea is terrible, it's much better as you say to abstract away the process of construction of the platform. Maybe you could explain more in detail how adding robots to the space platform will make its graphic look less modern and more to your liking while not changing gameplay compared to what's not yet revealed by adding an uncessary step for more immersion in the suggestion part of the forum because at this point as you say it's mostly about your idea, and much less about the FFF.