Re: Friday Facts #399 - Trash to Treasure
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:57 pm
This is the only point that is remotely valid.aka13 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:25 pm- You have to build defensive coverage everywhere you build - check, although this time it seem you don't get a planet-wide solution, but HAVE to do it on every point. Can't wait to have additional entiities on mining outposts which have to be delivered and stamped down in a grid.
That occured to human settlements accross history, depleting tin copper iron gold coal or oil, and then their civilization vanish, migrate, evolve, and the region is no longer considered a source of "tin gold copper or iron" for people coming later in history and they also wonder who and how were builts some of the monuments from the past.
No the recycler is retrofitting some things ! i suppose , ok that one is a bit weird, for metal it make sense but for circuits ? I'm going to pretend some circuits are like microchip with a single function, like an accelerometer, or a memory block, and with little technology, it's the engineer that is able to use alien tech or make it compatible for some use, not the alien who have human tech.morse wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:58 pmAnd also, aliens use the very same intermediate products as you do? Aren't aliens supposed to be, you know, aliens? Imagine we find the remains of the ancient alien civilization on mars, start digging, and find out that they used MOS6502's in their computers. This is what this alien recycling looks like.
Engineers are allowed to dream too ! Lightsaber are not real but they are super cool !
Erm. I can't entirely agree with the 'fixed income ratio' bit; as said in this blog explicitly, the existence of recycling avoids repeating the typical miners 'fixed' incoming material mechanics that players are used to on Nauvis (burner miner, offshore pump, electric miner, and pumpjack) and Vulcanis (big miner).I think it also make a good gameplay to have to deal with some fix income ratio of material and to deal with the byproduct, it is well adapted to what we can do in factorio , many way to tackle the problem, many ways to consider one's priority and strategize for it.
My 2 cents... cliffs and water (and soon lava, tar and whatever else) adds complexity to the puzzle. You need to build a factory design that fits in the terrain. And so every playthrough is slightly different.aka13 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 4:11 pmThank you for your condescending reply, I could not have decided myself to buy or not to buy the expansion. I would have bought the expansion even if I did not like anything in it, simply to support the devs, since I have been getting pretty solid content all those years.
Funny how you also do not understand, that I am not complaining about cliffs in the current version, since cliff removal tech is easily achieved, which will not be the case in the expansion, according to currently available information.
I'd appreciate if you let me have an opinion and influence on the content to come, like I did in the past 11 years on this forum.
Doesn't Space Age have ways to throw away items? Just have a priority splitter and if the belt gets backed up, the items go into the garbage.XT-248 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:13 pmOne inherited problem involving non-deterministic recipes like those is that one of the outlets can become bottlenecked if consumption is not balanced. For example, solid fuel is the second most common material on average. Lightning rods absorb energy during the night into accumulators, Ice + offshore pump-Heavy-Oil-to-solid-fuel boilers to generate energy during the day, rocket launches, and maybe rocket fuel for train logistics.
You need power poles all around your factory already, it's not that different. Though these also work like night solar panels as well, so you basically have to put your power plant mixed in with the production.
Yes, the power poles need protection but the wire does not. You don't build power poles on oily lowland, it's impossible, it's like water except you can walk on it. But if you landfill to place poles you can just protect the poles with the lightning rod just like everywhere else.XT-248 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:13 pmDoes the power pole connection to and from remote islands require a lightning rod? How will one build power poles in the oily lowland without being damaged or destroyed by lightning strikes? A new hardened/grounded power pole? There are in-real-life buildings with lightning attractors on top of them to channel the energy to the ground instead of a distinct separate building.
The non-determinism is a red herring, it has no effect on gameplay. You will get everything in proportion and you don't have to consider luck or bad luck.XT-248 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:13 pmOne inherited problem involving non-deterministic recipes like those is that one of the outlets can become bottlenecked if consumption is not balanced. For example, solid fuel is the second most common material on average. Lightning rods absorb energy during the night into accumulators, Ice + offshore pump-Heavy-Oil-to-solid-fuel boilers to generate energy during the day, rocket launches, and maybe rocket fuel for train logistics.
The existence of non-deterministic and non-handled excess byproducts creates unique challenges that conflict with other production lines or block them from producing other necessities. There is no question that it can and will do this. Acting like it can be 'solved in many ways' will not change the reality of oscillating, starved, or blocked production lines.
I would be remiss to point out that it is not fun or challenging to "return to Fulgora to manually clear stones or ice or whatever excessed product" for the umpteenth time. I know this to be true because it has happened to me in mods, especially those well-known for having production lines with imbalanced input/output and non-deterministic in some cases.
I wonder how you deal with it on Nauvis with biters. You have to build defense... everywhere... and if you use gun turrets and the likes you also need to ship ammuntion, which is even more tedious. There you don't complain or do you play without biters?
Well, there seems to be oil for forever and 3 days. Just make Solid fuel. Don't know what you are complaining about there. You basically contradict yourself a few lines further down when you mention that the planet has oil.
There will be a landfill, just later down the line. They even wrote it in one of the paragraphs.
Don't be ridiculous. The items the scrap gives are easily broken down into first-tier intermediate items like plates and plastic. You don't even need a 3rd cascade of recyclers to get to it.aka13 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:25 pm- Recycling - [...] It is not fun to have 98237546 byproducts, and have to have a convoluted way to delete them from the world is just not fun, and not interesting gameplay. This is the same as robots needing maintenance, assemblers needing lubrication, and other tedium-inducing mods.
Yes. On Vulcanus you can put unwanted materials back into the lava to destroy it. With recyclers you can feed unwanted output back into itself in a loop, similar to seablock's compost voiding.jackthesmack wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:35 pmDoesn't Space Age have ways to throw away items? Just have a priority splitter and if the belt gets backed up, the items go into the garbage.XT-248 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:13 pmOne inherited problem involving non-deterministic recipes like those is that one of the outlets can become bottlenecked if consumption is not balanced. For example, solid fuel is the second most common material on average. Lightning rods absorb energy during the night into accumulators, Ice + offshore pump-Heavy-Oil-to-solid-fuel boilers to generate energy during the day, rocket launches, and maybe rocket fuel for train logistics.
Yes, there are. On Vulcanus, lava is a resource dump. Throw undesirable material there, all goes poof.jackthesmack wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:35 pmDoesn't Space Age have ways to throw away items? Just have a priority splitter and if the belt gets backed up, the items go into the garbage.
It is your right, what i meant by fix income is that unlike mining drill that allow to have an income of iron or copper and increase one or the other, the income of material on Fulgora will have "fixed income ratio", meaning you will always have the same amount of iron per copper for income, even if you do not consume the same ratio over the course of the game. This is what you describe as a problem. But to me this is like oil refining, where you can't have more "petroleum gas" if you don't deal with the "heavy oil" or "light oil" that could clog the system.XT-248 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:13 pmErm. I can't entirely agree with the 'fixed income ratio' bit; as said in this blog explicitly, the existence of recycling avoids repeating the typical miners 'fixed' incoming material mechanics that players are used to on Nauvis (burner miner, offshore pump, electric miner, and pumpjack) and Vulcanis (big miner).
The existence of non-deterministic and non-handled excess byproducts creates unique challenges that conflict with other production lines or block them from producing other necessities. There is no question that it can and will do this. Acting like it can be 'solved in many ways' will not change the reality of oscillating, starved, or blocked production lines.