The von Neumann Thread

Place to share custom user maps, scenarios and campaigns.

Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby Ingress » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:27 pm

Where is the seed link at? I cant seem to find it. If not one available I was thinking of getting a mod that just randomizes everything and just going for it. I love this idea and am looking for something new. Anyone got a seed for this thread or should I just randomize on and go to town?
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:45 am

Where is the seed link at? I cant seem to find it.

Just to be clear, technically this thread is using map strings, not seeds. And this thread is using many map strings, not just one.

From the instructions in the first post in this thread:
Zengief wrote:Use the map string given by any previous person in this thread.


The "any" there tells me that anyone is free to join in at any time using any of the strings provided so far, so there's no need to wait for HammerPiano to finish his run. I might go through the existing set of map strings with the latest Factorio build and see if they produce a map I'd like to play. (I've been thinking of doing a run with mods, maybe Yuoki Industries + Armageddon + some of the other mods listed here.)

Map strings so far (though I may have missed some as people hide them in spoilers!):

From Zengief
Code: Select all
>>>AAAKAAwAAAACAgYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAICAQoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
AQUECQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAMFBAoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlAwUECAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlAQUEBQAAAHN0b25lAgIEP24AQim/AAAekQAAAAAAAAAAAA
AEAcx1kD0=<<<


From Dutts:
Code: Select all
>>>AAALAAEAAAADAQYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAMDAgoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
BQUECQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAQFAwoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlAwIECAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlBQUEBQAAAHN0b25lAwMCEb7oJSmBAAC8PwAAAAAAAAAAAA
ACAfBbor8=<<<


From thegreyman:
Code: Select all
>>>AAALAAUAAAADAwYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAMDAwoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
AwIECQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAMDAwoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlAwMCCAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlAgQBBQAAAHN0b25lAwMCj4LFWii4AACZVQAAAAAAAAAAAA
AEAOCs3/o=<<<


From ajranney:
Code: Select all
>>>AAALABYAAAAFAwYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAMDAQoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
AwMDCQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAMEAwoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlAwMCCAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlAwMDBQAAAHN0b25lAwMCq+KDzeUaAADVPAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AFAEVTD3I=<<<


From thegreyman:
Code: Select all
>>>AAALABYAAAADAgYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAQCBAoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
AgIECQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAIEAgoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlAwMDCAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlAQMDBQAAAHN0b25lAQQDwDAp8Ci3AADOhgAAAAAAAAAAAA
AEAAnxE0k=<<<


From RickyRio:
Code: Select all
>>>AAAMAAEABAACBQYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAECAwoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
AwMCCQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAIDBAoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlAwMCCAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlAgQDBQAAAHN0b25lBAIE1Bpy880aAADoeQAAAAAAAAAAAA
AEAODuR1g=<<<


From suprnova74:
Code: Select all
>>>AAAMAAgAAAACAQYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAIFAwoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
AwMCCQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAMDAwoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlBQUDCAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlBQICBQAAAHN0b25lAwICuN/kdqJ3AADAIgAAAAAAAAAAAA
AEACKkQZc=<<<

Verified Factorio Version: 0.12.12

From me (NotABiter):
Code: Select all
>>>AAAMAAwAAAAFBAYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAICAgoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
AwMCCQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAMDAwoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlBAMCCAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlAwMCBQAAAHN0b25lBAUDC9S3XmwvAAC0YAAAAAEAAAAAAA
ABAXHOA/I=<<<

Verified Factorio Version: 0.12.12

From Sedy:
Code: Select all
>>>AAAMABUAAAABAAYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAIEAAoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
BQIECQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAQDAgoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlBAECCAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlBQIEBQAAAHN0b25lAwMCQ1uvg/FcAADWQwAAAAAAAAAAAA
ACAA5wsik=<<<

Verified Factorio Version: 0.13.9

The "Verified Factorio Version" means if you use that map string with that version of Factorio you will get the same map that was originally played. (If anyone wants to provide "verified versions" for any of the other map strings I'll update my post to include them.) Using the latest Factorio 0.14.x with any of the above map strings will produce a map different than what was played -- but hey, that's still allowed by the thread "rules"!
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:04 pm

OK, I've picked a setup for a new run. I've gone with the map string provided by ajranney:
Code: Select all
>>>AAALABYAAAAFAwYAAAAEAAAAY29hbAMDAQoAAABjb3BwZXItb3Jl
AwMDCQAAAGNydWRlLW9pbAMEAwoAAABlbmVteS1iYXNlAwMCCAAAAGl
yb24tb3JlAwMDBQAAAHN0b25lAwMCq+KDzeUaAADVPAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AFAEVTD3I=<<<


Loading that into 0.14.22 yields the following map settings:
aj_000.jpg
aj_000.jpg (95.08 KiB) Viewed 1950 times


Looks easy, right? Yes, it does. So let's fix that.

First, note that the only thing that it's low on (poor richness) is coal, so let's make that a potential problem by nerfing solar... and then nerfing solar again. I'm using the Mo Weather (0.3.9) mod which adds overcast skies and rain as possible weather conditions. That nerfs solar by drastically reducing the power output of solar cells. Next, let's throw in the Day/Night Extender (1.1.10) mod. That makes days and nights many times longer than normal which makes using solar more difficult as you need many times more accumulators to last through the night.

Since I'll be stuck using coal for a while, that should mean lots of pollution and biter attacks. But hey, it could be worse. Er, make that it will be worse, because I'm using the No Tree Emission (1.0.0) mod, which means trees will not absorb any pollution - that combined with heavy coal usage (assuming I don't run out of coal!) should really piss off the biters.

Speaking of trees... what if trees were dangerous? What if chopping one down (or even having one destroyed by biters during an attack) produced yet another enemy? An enemy so tough that an un-upgraded turret has to sink 4 magazines into it just to make a dent? Oh yes, it's the dreaded yellow will o' wisp. I'm using the Will o' the wisps (14.22.12) mod. Yellow will o' wisps are just the start with that mod (which includes wisps that can not be killed with any gun) - I'll describe more of that mod as it comes up in the game. (I will add now, however, that that mod will likely make my coal/solar situation much worse.) There's a twist here though - will 'o wisps are creatures of the night - chopping down trees is safe during the day. I just have to avoid getting carried away, chopping one tree too many as night falls. And god help me if once I have bots I accidentally issue a large forest-clearing deconstruct order after dark. (Thanks to the day/night extender mod, the will 'o wisps have a bigger window in which to do their damage.)

Still sounds perhaps a tad too easy? Well, what if when a behemoth biter/spitter died it turned into two big biters/spitters, and when a big died it turned into two mediums, and when a medium died it turned into two smalls? Sounds good! That's what the Swarm (1.0.6) mod does.

Sure, you say, but eventually I'll have a giant double-thick wall with multiple rows of lasers (and something else to deal with the will 'o wisps?) that runs all around my base and therefore my base will be totally secure and boring... No! I'm also using the Armageddon (1.0.13) mod which, besides adding the 'Biterzilla' enemy, allows biters to tunnel, completely bypassing any such perimeter. One big wall around the whole base is not going cut it - defenses will be needed everywhere.

And if there's an emergency and I need to quickly drop some turrets to ward off an attack? Well, I might just be out of luck. I'm using the Turret Delay (1.0.1) mod which makes it so all newly placed turrets have a warm-up period before they become active.

(I'm also using a couple of mods that don't really affect difficulty:
minimap autohide (0.9.1) - auto-hides the mini-map whenever you mouse-over a logistics chest
Afraid of the Dark (1.0.15) - more light, less eye strain)

If anyone wants to concurrently play/post the same map string + mods:
more play
Feel free. I'm hoping for some chaos here and more people playing makes hitting some of that more likely. My main concern is that the starting area may be too big, making the early game too uneventful and letting the player get too tech'ed up before running into biters/spitters en masse. (But wisps, they're everywhere, starting area be damned!)
If someone wants to try it but thinks it might be too hard, rather than "removing the fun" by removing mods, I would recommend adding the FactorioExtended mods which will provide some better solar/battery/weapons/etc. tech than vanilla without breaking the game like many other "extender mods" do.


If anyone wants to suggest other "challenge enhancing" mods:
more mods
That would be cool.
Note, though, that I have reasons for avoiding certain mods/mod-types:
Misanthrope - I've had this mod completely break biter attacks (as in zero attacks even with pollution through the roof... and then you disable the mod and continue your game and wow, constant and massive biter attacks due to the supercharged pollution)
Biter_Seasons - doesn't really do anything for challenge
marathon type mods - my goal is challenge, not (boring) grinding
homeworld type mods - ditto
I decided against using the Yuoki mods for this run once I decided to go for challenge (as Yuoki contains some features that kind of break the game in terms of making it too easy). I would not use Bob's or Natural Evolution for this run for the same reason. Angel's might not break things in terms of challenge, but it also doesn't really add to it (except in the "everything's more 'complicated' and takes more space" sense, but that's not the kind of challenge I'm going for in this run). FactorioExtended is also not "game breaking", but would still make things easier which is not what I'm shooting for here.
Another mod that I considered was TrainOutpost. It provides infinite resources, but at severely reduced yield (kind of like how oil works). Those extra resources make things easier (and encourage permanent outposts which I really like), but the reduced yield means you need a lot of power and create a lot of pollution getting them (which would probably be good for the current run even despite the increased resources). Unfortunately the mod also seems to nerf biters something fierce (making far less of them), and I didn't want to try to hack the mod to disable that aspect of it.
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:23 am

Planet Date: 1:44:01

It's mostly been rather uneventful so far. Well, except for that run in with the wisps. It was just one yellow wisp first, but apparently when you kill a yellow they leave a purple wisp behind. The purples are immune to gun fire. (Turrets won't even try to target them.) They just float along, and through anything they please, damaging much of what they touch. Wisps don't do well with daylight, and the only way to deal with the purple ones (besides just hoping they leave before they do too much damage to your base) is to bring the power of the sun to bear. With the long nights I have here just waiting for the sun to come isn't really a good idea, but researching solar energy provides another option:

aj_002.jpg
aj_002.jpg (406 KiB) Viewed 1936 times


However, there are two little problems with the UV lamp:
* It requires red circuits, and I don't even have oil tech yet. (My initial green science set up isn't even quite completed yet.) That can be rectified though - it's just one red circuit per lamp, so not that big of a deal. (If it required a lot more oil products, then it might mean wanting to get to blue science and advanced oil tech first.)
* They consume 800 kW each! Let's see, with a lamp range of 10 tiles, and my little starter base having a size of about 200x150 tiles, for a perimeter of ~700 tiles, it would take ~70 lamps to minimally line the perimeter at a total energy cost of 56MW. But to do that I'd have to expand my steam engines by about 12 times. And that's a lot of pollution to be making so early in the game. And my starting area coal wouldn't last long (due to its poor richness - it's only about an average of 700 coal per tile), and expanding out to find more would mean even more to defend, requiring even more lamps, requiring even more power, making even more pollution...

Planet Date: 2:27:13

I have some oil and plastic production in place, and have handcrafted a red circuit and my first UV lamp. The text above about the lamp power is actually a bit "out of time" because it wasn't actually until I crafted one of the UV lamps that I noticed how power hungry they were.

Planet Date: 4:39:01

Still wondering exactly what I'm going to do about power and pollution and wisps, I quadrupled my steam engines, added some actual red circuit production, and started producing efficiency modules and placing them everywhere:

aj_004.jpg
aj_004.jpg (458.14 KiB) Viewed 1936 times


Iron smelting has also switched to electric furnaces (with efficiency modules), which requires less fuel. Copper will be switched... at some point. For the time being, as I only have basic oil processing, I am converting most heavy and all light oil to solid fuel in order to prevent oil from backing up and cutting off plastic production. On many planets making solid fuel might be considered a waste (thus the common push for advanced oil tech), but since coal is so light here having some solid fuel to feed to the boilers could be a good thing.

Planet Date: 5:29:24

I have set up a solid fuel "buffer" (manually fed for now) that acts as the priority fuel for the boilers. If/when the solid fuel starts to run out, the system switches to coal automatically:

aj_005.jpg
aj_005.jpg (406.26 KiB) Viewed 1936 times


The purple wisps don't just appear when a yellow one dies - they also just wander out of the forests at night. As I have had multiple such "visitations", and even in my small base they do a bit of damage before I can generally get to them and throw down some UV lamps, (and I still don't have enough power to set up a proper full-time perimeter), I decided to go with a semi-manual/semi-automated approach. In the upper left part of the image there are two lamps that don't have power. Their power is routed through a switch which is red-wire controlled. I am in the process of adding such UV augmentation to each of my gun emplacements. (More often than not the purple wisps seem to hit a gun emplacement on their way into my base, even though there's no reason they should as their wandering doesn't seem to even be influenced by turrets. But another consideration is that I have gun emplacements at non-perimeter locations in order to deal with the (soon to come?) tunneling biters, so even with UV lamps only at gun emplacements that doesn't mean they will only be on the perimeter.) I am also adding to each of them a constant combinator that sends the signal to turn the UV lamps on. Finally, all of them are red-wired together across the whole base so, in the event of purple wisps arriving, all I need to do is run to the nearest gun emplacement and turn its combinator on. But how can I be confident that I've got them all wired together correctly so if I activate a combinator on one side of the base it most certainly triggers the UV lamps on the other side of the base? I added an extra (do-nothing) signal into the red-wire network at just one point -- so long as I can see that signal from a given gun emplacement's power pole, I then know that power pole is surely linked into the rest of the network.
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:09 am

Planet Date: 8:51:22

aj_006.jpg
aj_006.jpg (512.31 KiB) Viewed 1916 times

* copper smelting upgraded to electric furnaces
* blue science is up
* researched advanced oil, set up cracking, got pump jacks on all of the local oil spots
* set up some land fill creation so I can straighten out the local lake (make it more steam power friendly)
* bolstered power: 90 steam engines (up from 40 last time), added 1GJ of accumulators to help with
peak power usage (when the UV lamps are enabled)

After all that progress, I'm sure that my having yet to receive a raise is an oversight which will be soon corrected.

Planet Date: 11:26:51

aj_007.jpg
aj_007.jpg (24.02 KiB) Viewed 1916 times

Well, that doesn't sound ominous or anything.
That message comes from the Armageddon mod. It means the biters are in a "tunneling phase".

Robots! 100 logistics robots to be specific. Also 20 construction bots in my pocket and a spare roboport I can toss down where needed to get stuff done. I've also got most assemblers upgraded to level 3. And my initial copper area is running down, so I've grabbed the field to the east.

Planet Date: 13:42:31

With the switching of oil over to the advanced oil process and cracking, I have had a distinct lack of solid fuel, and that poor richness coal was getting eaten far too quickly for comfort (especially since I know plastic will eat plenty even without any help from the boilers, and my energy needs are only going up). So I have started setting up an oil center to the south dedicated to cranking out solid fuel:
aj_008.jpg
aj_008.jpg (434.17 KiB) Viewed 1916 times

It's a work in progress - there's still a lot of oil spots that need covering, and eventually those level 1 efficiency modules will be upgraded to level 2s. Once biters start arriving in force I will likely need to bolster defenses as well.

Although this map started with a very large start area, the biter nests have slowly been closing in, so I've started defender and distractor capsule production so I can keep them back. There is also now some (very modest) blue circuit production (which in the short term I will need for modular armor and shields/batteries).

Planet Date: 17:12:19

It's not quite done yet (it still needs some more miners, and I might fill some of that empty space with solar - for all the good that will do), but I've set up a green circuits base to the west:
aj_009.jpg
aj_009.jpg (385.63 KiB) Viewed 1916 times

This is step #1 in relieving the pressure on iron in my main base. (My original iron field is falling in size, and the plates/second it can produce made waiting for stuff to get produced painfully slow.)

As can also be seen, I've got modular armor and a stack of defenders and distractors. In fact I've already been out clearing bases and have 500+ artifacts so purple science is now going and I'll be able to upgrade my armor to something better. (Power armor 2 is currently being researched.)

My fuel setup has gotten a little bit more complicated:
aj_009c.jpg
aj_009c.jpg (119.88 KiB) Viewed 1916 times

I've starting adding some chests to the right for disposing of trees. So now the fuel priority order is: trees, solid fuel, coal
Even though the solid fuel may be infinite, making it creates pollution (both at the solid fuel plant and at the boilers), and I have to do something with the trees anyways, so it seemed like a good idea.

aj_009b.jpg
aj_009b.jpg (142.61 KiB) Viewed 1916 times

In the above overview you can see my secondary copper mining in the east, the solid fuel plant in the south, and the green circuits plant in the west. In the main base, in the north-east it might look like I'm mining coal, but that's actually the original copper mining working on the last three tiny bits of copper that's left, and some left-over miners/belts doing nothing. (That copper was right up against some coal.) The south-west coal is a "backup fuel" for the boilers (which I hopefully shouldn't ever need now that I have the solid fuel plant running). The south-east coal is purely for plastic. The dense pollution on the west side of my main base is where the (170 now) steam engines are, or more accurately, where the boilers are.
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:44 am

Planet Date: 23:08:21

The shame. Look upon my shame if you dare:
The Shame
aj_011.jpg
aj_011.jpg (314.73 KiB) Viewed 1866 times

That's all of my iron production. Just 18 smelters.

I'm trying to get a solar installation going to cut down on pollution, and it's going to have to be huge because the Mo Weather mod means I don't get bright sunlight most days, and because of the usual power drain of lasers, but now also because of the power drain of idle UV lamps. It turns out that while the idle power drain of lasers is kind of high (24kW), the idle drain of UV lamps is even higher (measured as 26.5kW). In scaling up use of UV lamps I had started red-wiring them directly to the network and set enable conditions directly on them instead of using a switch. This yields a more compact design (letting me keep UV lamps closer to guns) and avoids the major wiring problems with using schematics (which just wire all your stuff together even if it wasn't wired together when you made the schematic). The downside is that red-wiring the UV lamps means they have a major idle power draw.

Anyways, to power all this stuff without making tons of pollution (a problem which just gets worse and worse as I use more power), I need a major solar array (i.e. mucho steel) and I need lasers (even more steel) and/or gun turrets (constant steel for ammo) to defend it and to start defending my base better and defend future expansions. In other words, I need a lot of steel. As of last time I only had 6 smelters set up to make steel. In desperation I have added another 8 (using robots to deliver iron plates) for a total of 14 smelters. But with 14 steel smelters and only 18 iron smelters, well, that doesn't exactly leave a lot of iron plates left-over for everything else. (As can be seen in the picture, 4 of the steel smelters aren't even running due to lack of iron plates.) I've only got 23 iron miners in my home base, and some of those will run out soon, so just expanding my iron smelting in-place isn't really much of a solution.

Last time I said the green circuits plant was step #1 in relieving the pressure on iron in my main base. It looks like it's already well past time for step #2.

Planet Date: 25:34:02

I've laid rail to the north where there is a decent sized iron deposit and set up 33 miners and 56 smelters all dedicated to producing steel:
Steel
aj_012.jpg
aj_012.jpg (303.78 KiB) Viewed 1866 times

The left rail track is a steel loading station, and the middle rail track is a station bypass loop (and once I place a stop there it can be used to get around without interfering with normal train operations).

So, step #2 is completed (sort of - I still don't have a steel depot set up at home base, just a turn-around loop there at the moment, but I've manually dropped a whole lot of steel into passive providers so at least that iron pressure is off). I can't be done yet, though, as my 23 iron miners in my home base have dropped down to just 15 now (and will go to 14 very soon). Getting step #3 up will have to take precedence over getting a fancy schmancy steel depot set up.

Planet Date: 26:42:58

There was a second iron field in the vicinity, which I am using for step #3, which is iron gear wheels production:
Gears
aj_013.jpg
aj_013.jpg (417.35 KiB) Viewed 1866 times

The gears iron field is to the north, and iron smelting and gears factories are to the west. As can be seen in the minimap, I've added another rail loop/station for loading gears.
I am calling this combined installation "The Iron Works". Longer term, if the mines start to run out I can add yet another rail loop/station to bring in iron ore from elsewhere.
As one might have noticed, first with green circuits and now with steel and gears, I am intentionally playing this game differently than normal - rather than shipping raw materials back to a main base and doing all processing there I want to have many different places of production.

Planet Date: 27:22:26

And bringing my iron woes to a conclusion, I have set up gears and steel depots on the north side of my main base:
Depots
aj_014.jpg
aj_014.jpg (387.98 KiB) Viewed 1866 times

The materials are belted into the roboport supply area and dumped into passive provider chests. All steel and gears production in my main base has been removed.

Planet Date: 27:53:15

Lest anyone forget, or think I am simply a mad man telling tales, the wisps are back, and this time I have the proof!
Wisp Attack
aj_015.jpg
aj_015.jpg (115.38 KiB) Viewed 1866 times

The two large blue blobs are the humble beginnings of my solar array. (I don't actually like this layout and will be changing it.) The blue blob taking the damage has guns on all four corners (the four smaller blue blobs), but that matters not to the wisps who just casually meander through my solar array damaging all they touch.

With a large enough solar array, one could in theory just have UV lights strung all the way around it and still come out ahead on power. But at 800kW each, and a short range, and the apparent need for multiple UV lamps to really kill wisps before they get past such defenses, it seems you'd need a block of about 2000 solar panels just to break even on energy, and that's with maximal packing (unlike my current layout which has a walkway down two axis and a roboport at the center of that). It would be even worse, but unbeknownst to me before I started this play through, recently the day/night mod was updated to increase accumulator capacity to offset the longer nights, so one of my intended solar nerfs was itself nerfed.

A "smarter" way to do it would be to use wisp detectors and only fire up the UV lamps when there are wisps about. Unfortunately such detectors are fairly expensive. Each one, besides costing 100s of stone, coal, and wood (which wouldn't be too big a problem) costs 900 alien artifacts. Just to have enough detectors to defend a minimum sized solar array (one big enough to reliably power my whole base) would require several tens of thousands of alien artifacts to produce. It may be a while before I have that many alien artifacts, and by the time I do I'll probably need an even larger solar array.

So... my approach is simply roboports + construction bots + repair packs. As long as the wisps move along and only damage stuff (rather than destroy it), robots can just clean up after them. Eventually daylight returns and the wisps go away.

OK, that's not the whole story. There's another part to my approach. But it's perhaps not politically correct. You see, the wisps - they come out from the trees at night. So I ask myself, "What if there were no trees? Then there'd be no wisps, right?" Since I do have power armor and personal roboports, mass destruction of trees is a distinct possibility. And, of course, "success" doesn't require clearing every tree on the planet. Wisps can only travel so far at night, so once that distance from my base is cleared I shouldn't see another wisp in my base. And as it turns out, the wisps mod does not produce yellow wisps when robots cut down trees at night -- it only produces them if the player character chops/destroys trees directly or via laser/gun/flame turrets. So I can safely clear trees at any time using robots.

Overview
aj_015b.jpg
aj_015b.jpg (145.8 KiB) Viewed 1866 times

The most recent expansions can be seen in the north. (The train stops up north are "Gears 1", "Steel 1" and "North 1".) The "temp" loop just east of my main base is what I used while working on the northern expansions and before getting the proper depots set up just north of the main base. (It will eventually go away.) From where I've placed some additional rail it might appear that I have plans for rail stations in the west... which I do, but another reason is to have a more standardized "front line" against biter attacks. (My rails are all militarized.) Biter bases are now clearly visible, and would be much closer to (and possibly in) my base except that I've been regularly clearing out nearby bases. I don't know if this a standard Factorio 0.14.22 thing or if it's due to the Armageddon mod or something else, but I've noticed that biter attacks are now coordinated - rather than individual groups of biters building up and attacking independently, they will all attack from all directions at the same time. You definitely want some accumulator banks to support lots of lasers firing simultaneously when that happens. I suspect it's the Armageddon mod because it always seems to happen shortly after an Armageddon mod "tunneling phase". Anyways, I like it because it makes the biters slightly more of a threat to the base than just random attacks, and improves the "feel" of base defense.
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:35 am

Planet Date: 32:11:08

Now that I have enough iron products (for now anyways), and plenty of steel for making lasers... my main base is running very low on petroleum gas - all of the oil spots are down to 0.1 oil/second. I've cut off batteries from going into blue science, but there's still not enough petro->sulfur->acid->batteries to produce a good amount of lasers any time this century. Accumulator production isn't helping the battery situation any either (or is that the other way around?).

Just to the north of where I made the steel and gears plants, there is a sizeable oil field of ~47 oil spots. There is also a small iron patch to the south-west of the oil field, and a medium copper patch south of the oil field. There's even some water nearby. So I've converted the area into a dedicated battery plant. In addition to putting pumpjacks everywhere, miners on the iron/copper, and using my standard oil processing setup (4 advanced refineries, 1 heavy oil cracking, 7 light oil cracking), I have 3 chem plants on sulfur, 1 on sulfuric acid, and 12 on batteries:
Battery Plant
aj_017.jpg
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I also have a train station for picking up batteries with a corresponding bypass loop. I figure once the iron patch runs out it can siphon iron ore from the nearby Iron Works, and if the copper ever gets low I can add another train station for dropping off copper. I'm also doing the iron/copper smelting locally - I didn't bother doing the math on them and just went for overkill (16 electric furnaces each). A batteries depot station (similar to the steel/gears stations) has also been added to the main base.

Planet Date: 36:15:53

Those tunneling biters can cause quite the ruckus sometimes, especially when you've got gaps in your interior base defenses. Luckily I just happen to be in the area when these 5 bases popped up in the middle of my main base:
Tunneling Aftermath
aj_020.jpg
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I only had a single turret that was in range of any of those bases when they popped up... and it's the one just to the south flashing the red "ammo empty" signal. (It had 25 magazines of piercing ammo before the bases arrived - but dishing out 11k damage sucked that all up.) Since the invaders were mostly busy with those gun turrets (and destroying stuff, but the repair bots already fixed everything before this image was taken) it was easy for me to take out the other 4 bases. If I had been off chopping trees or something the invaders could have done some real damage before I got back. Not shown, at least one pack of invaders headed north - probably chasing the repair bots - but the roboport has its own defensive turrets so that didn't work out so well for the invaders.

This wasn't the first time tunneling bases have shown up in/near my base on this planet (and it won't be the last), but it was the first time I didn't have enough fire power nearby to automatically dispatch them. Have I learned my lesson? Will I now set up internal defenses systematically rather than haphazardly? :lol:

I have started a proper solar array just west of the green circuits plant area, but there's some coal patches in the way. What am I supposed to do with those? I'm currently mining them out and putting them in boxes. For now it's just coal in the way, but eventually the solar array will be expanding into a number of large copper deposits. I might get away with putting the coal in boxes (a LOT of boxes) since at least that will require fewer boxes than original coal tiles, but the copper - no way.

Planet Date: 39:32:52

OK, now I've gone and done it:
Packrat Syndrome
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I've completely mined out the smaller of the two coal fields in the area designated for solar, but there's still the larger one (being belted from the west) and for some reason (more space for home-base train depots) I decided I also wanted to get rid of a coal field to the east. I've also got train stops for dropping coal off into this repository, and picking it up from here, along with the standard bypass loop. I'm gonna need some more storage chests though.

Speaking of solar:
Solar Array
aj_021b.jpg
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I've currently got 150MW of solar panels and 43GJ of accumulators. Well, that's 150MW on a bright sunny day. It can be more like 100MW on a partly sunny day, and as low as ~30MW if it's overcast.

Normally I leave regular walking/lighting/belting space in my solar arrays, but I'm trying to be extra compact this time because I'm not sure if I will need to defend the perimeter with UV lights, and if I do I'm going to need that perimeter to be as small as possible. Plus, if there are no gaps in the array big enough for a nest the tunneling biters can't get in (at least in my experience). I'm putting roboports in the array to handle repairs (due to wisp damage) - I'm just tossing 10 bots and 100 repair packs in each. They're spaced out so their repair (green) zones touch but they aren't networked to each other. (The roboports in the west aren't actually positioned correctly - I'll fix that later.) Each roboport in the array is equipped with a wisp detector and 4 UV lamps, so I shouldn't ever have the case of a whole section of solar not being serviced by bots because the wisps managed to take out the section's roboport. All of the substations in the array are reg/green wired together so I can tap into my data networks as easily as tapping into power.

I now have the steam engines on their own power network connected to the main one via a power switch. They kick in if the accumulators drop below 50% charge and turn off again once it gets above 70%.
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:58 am

Planet Date: 42:32:43

To assist with my anti-wisp tree-clearing efforts, I have set up a couple of train stations:
Tree Stations
aj_023.jpg
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The first is a "Tree Unload" station to the south-east of my main base. Trees sent there end up in the fuel setup I showed previously (see Planet Date 17:12:19). The second is a makeshift "Tree Load" station I just put wherever it is that I am removing trees. I have 6 personal roboports so I can use 60 construction robots for tree-clearing work.

Planet Date: 47:40:19

My solar array continues to expand - it's now at 4.3k solar panels - but there's stuff in the way. As previously described I have been mining-out and collecting the coal, but I don't want to do that with the iron/copper patches, and it's impossible to do it (mine it completely out) with the oil. Since my main base is low on iron anyways (there's just 9 iron miners left there), I decided I would deal with the iron patch first:
West1 Stations
aj_025.jpg
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As can be seen, I've decide once again to not send raw resources back to the main base but rather to do remote production - at least for the iron. This is a more respectable iron plates smelting area than my old main base one, with 96 smelters (for now) - more than enough for the local iron patch (which only has 44 tightly-packed miners on it, with 3 of them already out of ore). The train stops (from top to bottom) are the PAX/bypass ("West1"), iron plates pickup ("Fe Plates 1"), iron ore drop-off ("Fe Ore Unload") and an oil pickup ("Oil 1"). I haven't bothered to wire the iron ore drop-off belts into the smelting system yet as I haven't yet set up any other iron patches to feed it. (All of my other being-mined iron patches already have some other purpose.) I also haven't set up an iron plates depot at the main base -- the current stack of train stations doesn't have space to expand, so I have to either add more stacks of train stations (if I want to unload at the north of my main base, which is the plan) or do something slightly more intelligent. It may be a while before I deal with that, because the main base isn't the immediate target I have in mind for these iron plates -- even with the current dedicated green circuits plant, there are far too few green circuits being made to keep solar panel production and red circuit production (and all of the inserter production when I've got blue-science research running) fed, and this iron plates production is the first step in addressing that.

The "Oil 1" station provides filled barrels using oil from 15 oil spots that will be a permanent fixture in the middle of the solar array. (There is an oil depot set up at the main base, which has been added right next to the "Tree Unload" station.) Since batteries have their own plant, the need for oil in my main base is almost entirely for plastic - even with just 8 assemblers on red circuits there was previously not enough oil to keep them fed.

Planet Date: 49:22:06

Logically, the next step in fixing the green circuits situation is copper:
East1 Stations
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This is similar to the "West1" stations, but there's no oil station here (yet, there is oil just south of the copper field so there will likely be an oil station added here eventually) and I have gone ahead and wired the copper ore drop-off into the smelters (even though, like iron, I have no ore currently being brought in by train). I decided to go a little overboard on the smelting area defenses I guess - the other areas (train stations, mining) are just using 4-gun-turret groups for now to provide internal defense.

Planet Date: 52:41:06

Finally, more green circuits:
Green Circuits Plant Mk2
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Unlike my previous, smaller green circuits plant, this one is not doing any of its own mining or smelting, but instead includes train stations for unloading iron and copper plates in addition to the train station for picking up green circuits. Just north of the train stations there is a waiting area where up to 11 trains can wait for a station to become available - it's not strictly needed yet but will likely be needed eventually. There is no PAX/bypass here, but thanks to the waiting area and the use of filters on the inserters I can use the iron and copper stations as short-term PAX without causing too much trouble. (Parking there too long will obviously cause green circuit production to stall, but won't cause trains to back up onto the main tracks and cause deadlocks and such.)

Also visible in that picture are a couple of "clean-up" jobs. There's a set of 7 miners getting rid of a small coal patch, but perhaps more interesting are the miners, furnaces and assembly machines to the east that are getting rid of a stone patch by converting it into walls in-place. Converting to walls (or land fill as I do elsewhere/elsewhen) greatly simplifies the logistics because you have 10 (walls) or 20 (land fill) times less items to move (and for land fill there's also a stacking bonus). This can mean moving things manually in 1 or two trips (with the help of a train and a couple of cars) rather than having to set up a temporary train station.

Getting back to green circuits... the assembler setup is 4 groups of 4 green circuit assemblers. Each group takes iron from both above and below, with adjacent groups sharing a belt:
Assembler Group
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So the 4 belts of iron plates from the station are converted to 5 belts before being sent to the assemblers.
One last point of possible interest is that each green assembler has two output inserters - they are configured to send circuits to opposite sides of the output belts so each assembler is individually lane-balanced. This has worked well for me when the output belt was directly in a larger factory (not going through a train), though in this specific situation it's probably completely unnecessary as the throughput is limited by the copper belts and the "GC Out" train station can easily consume both lanes of green circuits completely.

Planet Date: 54:41:58

With the increased plastic and green circuit production, the only "logical" thing to do is to increase red circuit production to the point that the new and improved plastic production is barely adequate:
Red Circuits
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I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with all of that, but at least blue science and basic efficiency modules won't be starved for red circuits anymore. Right now plastic production is limited not by oil but by the throughput of my 4-refinery oil processing system. I might make a much larger remote plastic plant at some point, but for now I'm going to stick with what I've got.
Back at the solar array I've started mining two copper fields in the middle of the array and one just to its north. I've added a "Cu Ore 1" station to the "West1" station stack where the ore is picked up and transferred to the dedicate copper smelting area in the east.

As can be seen in the overview:
Overview
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there have been some significant changes in the west (iron smelting, oil and copper ore gathering), the east (copper smelting), the south (green circuits production), and the main base (red circuit production on south side).
I have removed the old red circuit production that was in the middle of the main base in order to keep red circuit production all together and to make room. I will let the old green circuits plant continue to operate until its copper runs out, at which point I will tear it down, start shipping any remaining iron ore to the "West1" iron smelters, and expand the solar array over where it once stood.
The obvious thing that needs to be done is to improve the train system - the main base stations need to be able to handle more goods (iron plates and green circuits), and if I want to have more than one train able to run ore to the iron/copper smelting areas they are either going to need more stations or (far more likely) have waiting areas added.
But the immediate task to be tackled will be base defense. I've been spending too much time clearing enemy spawners to keep them away from the walls - time that would be better spent building, and that ongoing time-cost only gets worse as I expand. So I want to beef up power and the outer walls so they can just cope with me not doing such spawner clearing. I will also need more internal defenses - the closer spawners are to the outer walls the more likely it is they will tunnel right past those walls, and as can be seen in the above overview there are at present plenty of open areas within those walls where they could pop up spawners with no turrets in range to take them out. That is bad because it can result in a constant stream of enemies that taxes the power system and can quickly deplete gun turrets, and of course it wastes time if I have to drop everything to go put out such a fire.
As for where I go after that, well, I have a plan. I started to have the plan while I was building the "West1" iron smelters, but I didn't know I was having a plan, I just knew I had to build bigger than usual. By the time I got the green circuits plant mk2 going my conscious mind was thinking "this is nuts - I never produce anywhere near this many green circuits - this much is just not needed to make a rocket", but my subconscious mind was saying "this is good, the plan is going well". Some time after getting the red circuits production increased and seeing that my base, and especially science, was no longer starved it finally clicked: Didn't I hear some time ago that the techs back at Central were going to be broadcasting a whole bunch of new technology that can be developed? It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure I remember hearing the word "infinite". And "infinite" sounds like it's going to need a lot of resources.
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby suprnova74 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:23 pm

Nice progression and detailed to boot. Interesting mods you're using as well. You asked for additional mods. You can try https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Afforess/Misanthrope for more evil biter behavior. Not sure if it's compatible with the other mods you have installed. I haven't used it, but was in IRC when the mod developer was there discussing it's behavior. Sounded quite the challenge. Add to that the tunneling and that should be quite the challenge.
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:27 am

suprnova74 wrote:You can try https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Afforess/Misanthrope for more evil biter behavior.


Mods Talk
If you go back and read my intro post for this run, you'll see (if you open up the "MORE MODS" spoiler) that I'm not using Misanthrope because I've had it completely break biter attacks - as in zero attacks, even when enemy spawners were popping up right inside my base (due to Armageddon's tunneling) they wouldn't actually spawn any enemies.

That was with Factorio 0.13.15 and this mod set:
Code: Select all
Advanced_Personal_Roboports_0.1.1.zip
AfraidOfTheDark_1.0.13.zip
Armageddon_1.0.3.zip
AutoTrash_0.1.7.zip
Biter_Seasons_0.1.0
blueprint-string_3.1.2.zip
clock_0.13.0.zip
DayNightExtender_1.1.6.zip
Drones_1.0.17.zip
EndlessResourcesWithFullYield_0.4.1.zip
expanded_tools_1.0.2.zip
FactorioExtended-Core_0.1.9.zip
FactorioExtended-Equipment_0.1.9.zip
FactorioExtended-Logistics_0.1.9.zip
FactorioExtended-Machines_0.1.9.zip
FactorioExtended-Power_0.1.9.zip
FactorioExtended-Transport_0.1.9.zip
FactorioExtended-Weaponry_0.1.9.zip
Fastforward-Start_0.0.7.zip
filtered-deconstruction-planner_0.4.6.zip
Flare_0.0.2.zip
homeworld_1.4.1.zip
ItemCount_0.0.4.zip
Misanthrope_0.6.8.zip
moweather_0.3.90.zip
Omnibarrels_1.1.1.zip
PeppeBotStart_0.13.1.zip
picker_1.2.0.zip
ProgressiveRunning_1.0.7.zip
Red Alerts_1.1.1.zip
robotarmy_0.2.2.zip
Swarm_1.0.5.zip
Tesseract_0.1.0.zip
upgrade-planner_1.2.4.zip
ZCS-Trash-Landfill_0.13.15.zip


I have another game I started with the same version of Factorio and all the exact same mods except without Armageddon, Swarm, robotarmy, and Biter_Seasons, and in that case biter spawning worked normally and Misanthrope's "smarter biters" also worked - from what I saw, (that version of) Misanthrope will find holes in your defenses, but once you are at the point where your whole base is behind a solid wall there's not much that mod can do.

Misanthrope's latest changelog entry (0.7, which was 6 months ago) makes it sound like it is (at least for now) completely out of the "evil biter behavior" game: "Disabled custom AI behaviors with biter AI, revert to stock Factorio AI."

An AI mod I may have to revisit is Rampant AI. I haven't tried that mod since it's 0.0.8 version, and it looks like they've added a ton of stuff.

A scary mod-combination I've just recently thought of (maybe too scary - or too aggravating) is to combine the Will o' the Wisps mod (which causes enemies you can't shoot to come out of nearby trees at night) with the Natural Tree Expansion mod (which causes new trees to grow all over the place), and of course keeping the day/night extender mod so nights last a while (or possibly even worse, the Pitch Black mod).

BTW, I have confirmed that those coordinated attacks I mentioned earlier in the thread were in fact coming from the Armageddon mod. I hadn't seen that behavior from the mod before because that mod just recently added such "frenzy" events (in addition to its already existing Bitterzilla events and tunneling events).


***

Planet Date: 56:35:45

Well, despite switching to purely imported green circuits, steel, gears, batteries, and supplementing heavily with imported iron plates, my original iron field has finally come to an end.

Planet Date: 60:37:29

Map View
aj_034.jpg
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My whole perimeter, save one small section in the west part of the north wall, has been converted to be a solid row of lasers behind a solid single-thickness wall. The old wall had no ammo feed system and some of the gun turrets I replaced were in fact out of ammo from repeated attacks, making that section of the wall weaker. (The old wall was mixed gun/laser.)

To provide power for these lasers, I have upped the solar panel count to 6.6k and the accumulators to 109GJ.

Laser idle power draw is by far the biggest power consumer now, at a constant 58MW (with radars in 2nd at 8MW). Idle UV lamps are adding another 6.8MW. That UV lamp number would be a lot bigger, but since I've gone the tree-massacre route I am not using any UV lamps in the new outer wall.

As I'm sure any of you fellow world developers know, laser walls tend to be weak and take more damage at the corners. I decided to take a look into this issue before building my new wall.

In the below diagrams, each tile is two characters, with one horizontal space between adjacent tiles.
An 'LL' tile is 1/4 of a laser turret. (I.e. laser turrets take up 4 tiles.)
Non-laser-turret tiles are depicted with an integer number indicating how many laser turrets can target that tile.
Tiles with a '*' to their left are tiles which are "just in range" of at least one laser for a spitter. I.e. if the spitter is standing on that tile it can hit at least one laser, but if it takes one step back it can not.
(You can copy/paste these diagrams into a fixed-character-width editor to see the whole picture.)

This is a "traditional" single-thickness laser wall:
Code: Select all
 03 03 04 05 06 06 08 08 09 09 10 10 12 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 16 16 17 17 18 18 18 18 19 18 19 19 19 19
 03 05 05 06 07 08 08 09 10 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 18 19 19 20 19 20 20 20 20 20
 04 05 05 07 07 08 09 10 10 11 11 12 13*14*14*15*15*16*16*17*17*18*17*18*18*19*19*20*19*20*20*20*20*21*20*21
 05 06 07 07 09 09 10 10 12 12*13*13*14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 20 20 21 21 21 21 22 21 22 21
 06 07 07 09 09 10 11 12 12*13 13 14 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 19 20 20 21 21 22 21 22 22 22 22 23 22 23
 06 08 08 09 10 11 11*12*13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 21 22 22 23 22 23 23 23 23 23
 08 08 09 10 11 11*13 13 14 14 15 15 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 21 21 22 22 23 23 23 23 24 23 24 24 24 24
 08 09 10 10 12*12 13 13 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 24 25 24
 09 10 10 12 12*13 14 15 15 16 16 17 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 22 23 23 24 24 25 24 25 25 25 25 26 25 26
 09 11 11 12*13 14 14 15 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 24 25 25 26 25 26 26 26 26 26
 10 11 11*13 13 14 15 16 16 17 17 18 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 23 24 24 25 25 26 25 26 26 26 26 27 26 27
 10 12 12*13 14 15 15 16 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 25 26 26 27 26 27 27 27 27 27
 12 12 13*14 15 15 17 17 18 18 19 19 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 25 25 26 26 27 27 27 27 28 27 28 28 28 28
 12 13*14 14 16 16 17 17 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 27 27 27 28 28 28 28 29 28 29 28
 13 13*14 15 16 16 18 18 19 19 20 20 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 26 26 27 27 28 28 28 28 29 28 29 29 29 29
 13 14*15 15 17 17 18 18 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 28 28 29 29 29 29 30 29 30 29
 14 14*15 16 17 17 19 19 20 20 21 21 23 23 24 24 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL
 14 15*16 16 18 18 19 19 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL
 15 15*16 17 18 18 20 20 21 21 22 22 24 24 25 25 LL LL 27 27 28 28 28 28 29 29 30 30 30 30 31 30 31 31 31 31
 15 16*17 17 19 19 20 20 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 LL LL 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 30 30 31 31 31 31 32 31 32 31
 16 16*17 18 19 19 21 21 22 22 23 23 25 25 26 26 LL LL 28 28 29 29 29 29 30 30 31 31 31 31 32 31 32 32 32 32
 16 17*18 18 20 20 21 21 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 LL LL 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 31 31 32 32 32 32 33 32 33 32
 16 17*17 19 19 20 21 22 22 23 23 24 25 26 26 27 LL LL 28 29 29 30 29 30 30 31 31 32 31 32 32 32 32 33 32 33
 16 18*18 19 20 21 21 22 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 LL LL 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 31 32 32 33 32 33 33 33 33 33
 17 18*18 20 20 21 22 23 23 24 24 25 26 27 27 28 LL LL 29 30 30 31 30 31 31 32 32 33 32 33 33 33 33 34 33 34
 17 19*19 20 21 22 22 23 24 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 LL LL 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 32 33 33 34 33 34 34 34 34 34
 18 18*19 20 21 21 23 23 24 24 25 25 27 27 28 28 LL LL 30 30 31 31 31 31 32 32 33 33 33 33 34 33 34 34 34 34
 18 19*20 20 22 22 23 23 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 LL LL 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 33 33 34 34 34 34 35 34 35 34
 18 19*19 21 21 22 23 24 24 25 25 26 27 28 28 29 LL LL 30 31 31 32 31 32 32 33 33 34 33 34 34 34 34 35 34 35
 18 20*20 21 22 23 23 24 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 LL LL 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 33 34 34 35 34 35 35 35 35 35
 19 19*20 21 22 22 24 24 25 25 26 26 28 28 29 29 LL LL 31 31 32 32 32 32 33 33 34 34 34 34 35 34 35 35 35 35
 18 20*20 21 22 23 23 24 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 LL LL 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 33 34 34 35 34 35 35 35 35 35
 19 20*20 22 22 23 24 25 25 26 26 27 28 29 29 30 LL LL 31 32 32 33 32 33 33 34 34 35 34 35 35 35 35 36 35 36
 19 20*21 21 23 23 24 24 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 LL LL 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 34 34 35 35 35 35 36 35 36 35
 19 20*20 22 22 23 24 25 25 26 26 27 28 29 29 30 LL LL 31 32 32 33 32 33 33 34 34 35 34 35 35 35 35 36 35 35
 19 20*21 21 23 23 24 24 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 LL LL 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 34 34 35 35 35 35 36 35 35 34
 19 20*20 22 22 23 24 25 25 26 26 27 28 29 29 30 LL LL 31 32 32 33 32 33 33 34 34 35 34 35 35 35 35 35 34 33
 19 20*20 21 22 23 23 24 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 LL LL 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 33 34 34 35 34 34 34 33 32 31
 19 20*20 21 22 22 24 24 25 25 26 26 28 28 29 29 LL LL 31 31 32 32 32 32 33 33 34 34 34 34 34 33 33 32 31 30
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 LL LL 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 33 33 33 33 32 31 31 30 29 28
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 27 27 28 28 LL LL 30 30 31 31 31 31 32 32 32 32 31 31 30 29 29 28 27 26
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 26 26 LL LL 28 28 29 29 29 29 29 29 28 28 27 27 26 25 25 24 23 22
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17


With a single layer of lasers, in the "steady state case" (i.e. in the middle of a long straight section), spitters at their max range are targeted by 20 lasers. (See for example the "*20" in the bottom near the left. Note that in this "simulation" the lasers go off a long ways both down and to the right. The diagrams only show a limited subset of the total area.)

With the above layout, spitters at their max range may be targeted by as few as 12 lasers in the corner, which is significantly less than the 20 in the straight sections.

Furthermore, the number of lasers targeting a tile falls off a bit fast as you move away from the corner in a diagonal direction, reducing the ability to kill spitters before they get into range. Compare that to the way the counts fall off in a (horizontal) section of (an "infinite" vertical) straight laser wall:

Code: Select all
 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 05 09 11 13 14 16 17 18 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25
 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 05 09 11 13 14 16 17 18 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25
 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 05 09 11 13 14 16 17 18 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25


So, to attempt a better corner, bezel the corner (make spitters have to get closer to more lasers before they can get in range) and make (just the corner) be thicker (in terms of number of lasers). This is with a corner thickness of 3:
Code: Select all
 00 00 00 00 02 03 06 07 10 11 13 13 15 15 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 20 20 20 20 21 21 21 21 21 21 21 20 21 20
 00 00 00 03 04 07 08 11 13 14 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 22 23 22 23 22 23 22 23 22 22
 00 00 02 04 06 08 11 13 14 15 15 16 17 18 18 19 19 20 20*21*21*22*21*22*22*23*23*24*23*24*23*23*23*23*23*23
 00 03 04 07 09 12 14 14 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19*20*20*21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 25 24 25 24
 02 04 06 09 11 14 15 16 16 17 17 18 19 20 20*21 21 22 22 23 23 24 23 24 24 25 25 26 25 26 26 26 26 26 25 26
 03 07 08 12 14 15 15 16 17 18 18 19 19*20*20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 25 26 26 27 26 27 27 27 27 26
 06 08 11 14 15 15 17 17 18 18 19 19*21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 25 25 26 26 27 27 27 27 28 27 28 28 28 28
 07 11 13 14 16 16 17 17 19 19 20*20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 27 27 27 28 28 28 28 29 28 29 28
 10 13 14 16 16 17 18 19 19 20*20 21 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 26 27 27 28 28 29 28 29 29 29 29 30 29 30
 11 14 15 16 17 18 18 19 20*21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 28 29 29 30 29 30 30 30 30 30
 13 15 15 17 17 18 19 20*20 21 21 22 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 27 28 28 29 29 30 29 30 30 30 30 31 30 31
 13 16 16 17 18 19 19*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 29 30 30 31 30 31 31 31 31 31
 15 16 17 18 19 19*21 21 22 22 23 23 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 29 29 30 30 31 31 31 31 32 31 32 32 32 32
 15 17 18 18 20*20 21 21 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 31 31 32 32 32 32 33 32 33 32
 17 17 18 19 20*20 22 22 23 23 24 24 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 30 30 31 31 32 32 32 32 33 32 33 33 33 33
 17 18 19 19*21 21 22 22 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 32 32 33 33 33 33 34 33 34 33
 18 18 19*20 21 21 23 23 24 24 25 25 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL
 18 19 20*20 22 22 23 23 25 25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL
 19 19 20*21 22 22 24 24 25 25 26 26 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 LL LL LL LL LL LL 34 34 34 34 35 34 35 35 35 35
 19 20*21 21 23 23 24 24 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 LL LL LL LL LL LL 34 34 35 35 35 35 36 35 36 35
 20 20*21 22 23 23 25 25 26 26 27 27 29 29 30 30 31 31 LL LL LL LL LL LL 34 34 35 35 35 35 36 35 36 36 36 36
 20 21*22 22 24 24 25 25 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 LL LL LL LL LL LL 35 35 35 35 36 36 36 36 37 36 37 36
 20 21*21 23 23 24 25 26 26 27 27 28 29 30 30 31 LL LL LL LL LL LL 33 34 34 35 35 36 35 36 36 36 36 37 36 37
 20 22*22 23 24 25 25 26 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 LL LL LL LL LL LL 34 35 35 36 35 36 36 37 36 37 37 37 37 37
 20 22*22 24 24 25 26 27 27 28 28 29 30 31 31 32 LL LL LL LL 34 35 34 35 35 36 36 37 36 37 37 37 37 38 37 38
 20 23*23 24 25 26 26 27 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 LL LL LL LL 34 35 35 36 36 37 36 37 37 38 37 38 38 38 38 38
 21 22*23 24 25 25 27 27 28 28 29 29 31 31 32 32 LL LL 34 34 35 35 35 35 36 36 37 37 37 37 38 37 38 38 38 38
 21 23*24 24 26 26 27 27 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 LL LL 34 34 35 35 36 36 37 37 37 37 38 38 38 38 39 38 39 38
 21 22*23 25 25 26 27 28 28 29 29 30 31 32 32 33 LL LL 34 35 35 36 35 36 36 37 37 38 37 38 38 38 38 39 38 39
 21 23*24 25 26 27 27 28 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 LL LL 34 35 35 36 36 37 37 38 37 38 38 39 38 39 39 39 39 39
 21 22*23 25 26 26 28 28 29 29 30 30 32 32 33 33 LL LL 35 35 36 36 36 36 37 37 38 38 38 38 39 38 39 39 39 39
 21 23*23 25 26 27 27 28 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 LL LL 34 35 35 36 36 37 37 38 37 38 38 39 38 39 39 39 39 39
 21 22*23 25 26 27 28 29 29 30 30 31 32 33 33 34 LL LL 35 36 36 37 36 37 37 38 38 39 38 39 39 39 39 40 39 40
 20 23*23 24 26 27 28 28 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 LL LL 35 35 36 36 37 37 38 38 38 38 39 39 39 39 40 39 40 39
 21 22*23 25 25 27 28 29 29 30 30 31 32 33 33 34 LL LL 35 36 36 37 36 37 37 38 38 39 38 39 39 39 39 40 39 40
 20 22*23 24 26 26 28 28 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 LL LL 35 35 36 36 37 37 38 38 38 38 39 39 39 39 40 39 40 39
 21 22*22 25 25 26 27 29 29 30 30 31 32 33 33 34 LL LL 35 36 36 37 36 37 37 38 38 39 38 39 39 39 39 40 39 40
 20 22*23 23 26 26 27 27 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 LL LL 34 35 35 36 36 37 37 38 37 38 38 39 38 39 39 39 39 39
 20 22*22 24 24 26 27 28 28 29 30 30 32 32 33 33 LL LL 35 35 36 36 36 36 37 37 38 38 38 38 39 38 39 39 39 39
 20 21*23 23 25 25 26 27 28 29 29 30 31 31 32 32 LL LL 34 34 35 35 36 36 37 37 37 37 38 38 38 38 39 38 38 36
 20 21*21 24 24 25 26 27 28 28 29 29 31 31 32 32 LL LL 34 34 35 35 35 35 36 36 37 37 37 37 38 37 37 37 35 33
 20 21*22 22 24 25 25 26 27 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 LL LL 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 35 35 35 35 35 34 34 33 31 29 27
 19 21*21 23 23 24 26 26 27 27 28 28 30 30 31 31 LL LL 32 32 32 32 31 31 31 31 31 31 30 30 29 28 26 25 22 20
 19 20*21 22 23 24 24 25 27 27 28 28 29 29 29 29 LL LL 31 31 32 32 32 32 32 32 30 30 29 29 26 25 24 22 20 18
 19 20*20 22 23 23 25 25 26 26 27 27 29 29 30 30 LL LL 30 30 30 30 29 29 29 29 29 29 27 27 25 24 22 21 19 17
 19 20*20 21 22 23 24 24 26 26 27 27 27 27 28 28 LL LL 30 30 30 30 30 30 29 29 27 27 25 25 23 22 21 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 24 24 25 25 26 26 28 28 28 28 LL LL 28 28 28 28 27 27 27 27 26 26 24 24 22 21 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 25 25 25 25 26 26 27 27 LL LL 28 28 28 28 27 27 26 26 24 24 23 23 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 26 26 LL LL 26 26 26 26 25 25 25 25 24 24 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 26 26 LL LL 26 26 26 26 25 25 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17


With the above configuration, the corner is now just as strong as a straight section in terms of how many lasers can target a spitter at their max range. However, it still falls off a bit fast in the diagonal direction. Bumping the corner thickness up to 4 produces a corner that doesn't fall off nearly so bad, and any spitters at their max range now have even has more lasers targeting them than in a straight section:

Code: Select all
 00 00 00 00 02 03 06 07 10 11 14 15 18 18 20 20 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 24 23 23 22
 00 00 00 03 04 07 08 11 13 16 18 19 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 27 26 27 26 27 25 26 25 26 25 25
 00 00 02 04 06 08 11 13 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 24 25 25*26*26*27*26*27*26*27*27*28*27*28*27*27*26*26*26*26
 00 03 04 07 09 12 14 17 20 20 22 22 23 23 24 24*25*25*26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 29 29 29 29 29 29 29 28 28 27
 02 04 06 09 11 14 17 20 21 22 22 23 24 25 25*26 26 27 27 28 28 29 28 29 29 30 30 31 30 31 30 30 30 30 29 29
 03 07 08 12 14 18 20 21 22 23 23 24 24*25*25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 30 31 31 32 31 32 31 31 31 30
 06 08 11 14 17 20 22 22 23 23 24 24*26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 30 30 31 31 32 32 32 32 33 32 33 32 32 32
 07 11 13 17 20 21 22 22 24 24 25*25 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 32 32 33 33 33 33 34 33 34 32
 10 13 16 20 21 22 23 24 24 25*25 26 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 31 32 32 33 33 34 33 34 34 34 34 35 34 35
 11 16 18 20 22 23 23 24 25*26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 33 34 34 35 34 35 35 35 35 35
 14 18 19 22 22 23 24 25*25 26 26 27 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 32 33 33 34 34 35 34 35 35 35 35 36 35 36
 15 19 20 22 23 24 24*25 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 34 35 35 36 35 36 36 36 36 36
 18 20 21 23 24 24*26 26 27 27 28 28 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 34 34 35 35 36 36 36 36 37 36 37 37 37 37
 18 21 22 23 25*25 26 26 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 35 36 36 36 36 37 37 37 37 38 37 38 37
 20 21 23 24 25*25 27 27 28 28 29 29 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 35 35 35 36 36 37 37 37 37 38 37 38 38 38 38
 20 22 24 24*26 26 27 27 29 29 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 35 36 36 37 37 37 37 38 38 38 38 39 38 39 38
 22 22 24*25 26 26 28 28 29 29 30 30 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 35 36 36 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL
 22 23 25*25 27 27 28 28 30 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 35 36 36 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL
 23 23 25*26 27 27 29 29 30 30 31 31 33 33 34 34 35 35 36 36 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL 39 39 40 39 40 40 40 40
 23 24*26 26 28 28 29 29 31 31 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 35 36 36 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL 40 40 40 40 41 40 41 40
 24 24*26 27 28 28 30 30 31 31 32 32 34 34 35 35 36 36 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL 40 40 40 40 41 40 41 41 41 41
 24 25*27 27 29 29 30 30 32 32 33 33 34 34 35 35 36 36 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL 40 40 41 41 41 41 42 41 42 41
 24 25*26 28 28 29 30 31 31 32 32 33 34 35 35 36 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL 39 40 40 41 40 41 41 41 41 42 41 42
 24 26*27 28 29 30 30 31 32 33 33 34 34 35 35 36 LL LL LL LL LL LL LL LL 40 41 40 41 41 42 41 42 42 42 42 42
 24 26*26 29 29 30 31 32 32 33 33 34 35 36 36 37 LL LL LL LL LL LL 39 40 40 41 41 42 41 42 42 42 42 43 42 43
 24 27*27 29 30 31 31 32 33 34 34 35 35 36 36 37 LL LL LL LL LL LL 40 41 41 42 41 42 42 43 42 43 43 43 43 43
 24 26*27 29 30 30 32 32 33 33 34 34 36 36 37 37 LL LL LL LL 40 40 40 40 41 41 42 42 42 42 43 42 43 43 43 43
 24 27*28 29 31 31 32 32 34 34 35 35 36 36 37 37 LL LL LL LL 40 40 41 41 42 42 42 42 43 43 43 43 44 43 44 43
 24 26*27 29 30 31 32 33 33 34 34 35 36 37 37 38 LL LL 39 40 40 41 40 41 41 42 42 43 42 43 43 43 43 44 43 44
 24 27*28 29 31 32 32 33 34 35 35 36 36 37 37 38 LL LL 39 40 40 41 41 42 42 43 42 43 43 44 43 44 44 44 44 44
 24 25*27 29 30 31 33 33 34 34 35 35 37 37 38 38 LL LL 40 40 41 41 41 41 42 42 43 43 43 43 44 43 44 44 44 44
 24 26*27 29 30 32 32 33 34 35 35 36 36 37 37 38 LL LL 39 40 40 41 41 42 42 43 42 43 43 44 43 44 44 44 44 44
 24 25*26 29 30 31 33 34 34 35 35 36 37 38 38 39 LL LL 40 41 41 42 41 42 42 43 43 44 43 44 44 44 44 45 44 45
 23 26*26 28 30 31 32 33 35 35 36 36 37 37 38 38 LL LL 40 40 41 41 42 42 43 43 43 43 44 44 44 44 45 44 45 44
 23 25*26 28 29 31 32 34 34 35 35 36 37 38 38 39 LL LL 40 41 41 42 41 42 42 43 43 44 43 44 44 44 44 45 44 45
 22 25*26 27 29 30 32 32 35 35 36 36 37 37 38 38 LL LL 40 40 41 41 42 42 43 43 43 43 44 44 44 44 45 44 45 44
 23 24*25 28 28 30 31 33 33 35 35 36 37 38 38 39 LL LL 40 41 41 42 41 42 42 43 43 44 43 44 44 44 44 45 44 45
 22 24*25 26 29 29 31 31 33 34 35 36 36 37 37 38 LL LL 39 40 40 41 41 42 42 43 42 43 43 44 43 44 44 44 44 44
 22 24*24 27 27 29 30 32 32 33 34 35 37 37 38 38 LL LL 40 40 41 41 41 41 42 42 43 43 43 43 44 43 44 44 44 44
 21 23*25 25 28 28 29 30 32 33 33 34 35 36 37 37 LL LL 39 39 40 40 41 41 42 42 42 42 43 43 43 43 44 43 43 41
 21 23*23 26 26 28 29 30 31 32 33 33 35 35 37 37 LL LL 39 39 40 40 40 40 41 41 42 42 42 42 43 42 42 42 40 38
 21 22*24 24 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 34 35 35 LL LL 37 37 38 38 39 39 40 40 40 40 40 40 39 39 38 36 34 32
 20 22*22 25 25 26 28 29 30 30 31 31 34 34 35 35 LL LL 37 37 37 37 36 36 36 36 36 36 35 35 34 33 31 30 27 25
 20 21*22 23 25 26 26 27 29 30 31 31 32 32 33 33 LL LL 35 35 36 36 37 37 37 37 35 35 34 34 31 30 28 26 24 22
 19 21*21 23 24 25 27 27 28 28 30 30 32 32 33 33 LL LL 34 34 34 34 33 33 33 33 33 33 31 31 29 28 26 25 22 20
 19 20*21 22 23 24 25 26 28 28 29 29 30 30 31 31 LL LL 33 33 34 34 34 34 33 33 31 31 29 29 26 25 24 22 20 18
 19 20*20 22 23 23 25 25 27 27 28 28 30 30 31 31 LL LL 31 31 31 31 30 30 30 30 29 29 27 27 25 24 22 21 19 17
 19 20*20 21 22 23 24 24 26 26 27 27 28 28 29 29 LL LL 31 31 31 31 30 30 29 29 27 27 25 25 23 22 21 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 24 24 25 25 26 26 28 28 28 28 LL LL 28 28 28 28 27 27 27 27 26 26 24 24 22 21 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 25 25 25 25 26 26 27 27 LL LL 28 28 28 28 27 27 26 26 24 24 23 23 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 26 26 26 26 LL LL 26 26 26 26 25 25 25 25 24 24 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 26 26 LL LL 26 26 26 26 25 25 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17
 19 20*20 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 24 24 25 25 25 25 LL LL 25 25 25 25 24 24 24 24 23 23 22 22 21 20 20 19 18 17


The corner thickness = 4 design only requires 7 more lasers than a traditional/simple single-thickness laser wall corner, and the corner thickness = 3 design only requires 2 more lasers than a traditional single-thickness laser wall corner. A typical semi-orderly base has very few (convex) corners so this is not much of an expense to remedy what would otherwise be annoying weak points. (Currently I have 2.4k lasers deployed, so spending 7 lasers on a handful of corners to bring them up to snuff with the straight sections is not exactly a difficult decision.)

The above corner thickness = 4 design is what I went with:
aj_034b.jpg
aj_034b.jpg (139.96 KiB) Viewed 1653 times


Note that another place where laser walls have weak-points is when they terminate at a lake. There are two ways to handle that case (which I haven't yet run the numbers on so these examples may in fact not be adequate to achieve "same strength as straight wall section"):

1. Add layers of lasers:
aj_034c.jpg
aj_034c.jpg (99.55 KiB) Viewed 1653 times


2. Landfill the lake just enough to extend the laser wall part way into the lake (about 12.5 lasers worth):
aj_034d.jpg
aj_034d.jpg (117.69 KiB) Viewed 1653 times

(In the above example I actually only landfilled about 4 lasers worth because the natural curvature of the land north of the wall provides the other ~8.5.)

Planet Date: 64:43:13

Map View
aj_036.jpg
aj_036.jpg (187.7 KiB) Viewed 1653 times


Added an "Iron Works Depot" train station to The Iron Works for iron ore to be dropped off and added a 10 train waiting area to that set of stations.

I don't know if this is a good idea, but... in order to "claim area" (defend it against tunneling biters and prevent them from nesting inside the area contained by the outer walls) I started putting down a grid of big electric poles, each with 4 lasers. Every 3rd one (along a given axis, one of every 9 in a 2D/total-count sense) also has a roboport with some construction bots and repair packs. This ensures that no matter where the enemy pops up, they'll be in range of some lasers.

Planet Date: 72:53:38

Previously my main base only had 4 stations - depots for gears, steel and batteries, along with a PAX/bypass station. Green circuits and iron plates had to be brought in manually (using the PAX station). I have finally fixed that situation, not by adding 2 more unloading stations, but by reducing the number of unloading stations:

Main Base Train Stations
aj_038.jpg
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There are now just two unloading stations (both named "HB Unload"), and the PAX station ("Home Base"). All deliveries to the main base are just sent to "HB Unload" where the goods are unloaded, travel down belts into the roboport supply area, and get placed into passive providers. All goods get mixed together, both on the belts and in the passive providers.

The main key to having this work is the green circuit network. I have global red and green circuit networks that connect all areas of the map together. I am using the red circuit network to send specific signals. (For example, I have a centralized "do work" signal that is activated when accumulators are above 65% charge and deactivated when they drop below 55%. I can then use that signal to cut off smelters/miners/etc. in order to avoid using power needed to maintain defenses and to avoid causing the steam engines to kick in. Having that centralized is useful because then I can implement global policy changes without having to run all over the place changing things and not being sure if I made all of the changes and did so correctly in every case.) The green circuit network is being used to broadcast information about what resources are available at the main base. The passive providers that those belts empty into are all hooked to the green network, as are all of the chests at the two unload stations (so only "in flight" goods on the belts and in trains aren't accounted for). Each train that delivers goods is set up to not go to "HB Unload" unless the type of goods it delivers falls below a certain threshold. (E.g. the train that delivers steel plates won't take off for "HB Unload" unless main base steel plate drops below 8k.) The thresholds are set low enough and the storage at the ends of the belts is great enough that overflow/jamming isn't possible. At the same time, the thresholds are set high enough (an amount equal to two full train loads) so there are no temporary outages caused by train travel-time.

The main base also gets an 8 train waiting area. This time I've placed train stops (all called "HB Waiting") in each section of the waiting area. I'm not using those stops yet, but the idea is that eventually I may have one supplier supplying two different places using two different trains. In that case, you don't want the HB train sitting in the supplier's loading station waiting for HB to need goods, because it's then blocking the other train. So what I'll do is have the HB train go to "HB Waiting" (fully loaded with goods) while it waits for HB to need the goods (or alternatively, go to a waiting station at the supplier and wait empty, or maybe I'll eventually create a centralized waiting area for this - I'm just keeping my options open at this point).

I actually do have one supplier ("Fe Plates 1" in the west) supplying both HB and the green circuits factory, but it's currently doing so with a single train. (The train always goes from "Fe Plates 1" to "GC Fe Plates". The instant it arrives it monitors the green network to see if HB needs iron plates, and if it does it takes off before being emptied and delivers plates to HB. Otherwise it just sits at "GC Fe Plates" until it's empty, after which it still stops by "HB Unloading" but won't drop off any plates as it's already empty.)

Elsewhere in the base... I've done something very bad. I'm mining out a largish coal deposit in the middle of the solar array, and I wanted to have it taken by train to the "Coal Unload" station. But I didn't want to rip up solar to install a temporary train station for this purpose, so I am just using the "West 1"/PAX station. Now every time I forget and go to "West 1" I'll not only block that train but if I have any cars on my train I'll end up with cars full of coal. It makes me wish there were "negative filters" in trains. I.e., instead of setting filters to say what I want in each wagon slot, I'd like to set the filters to "anything but coal!" :lol:

***

And 0.15.x is now out. Since I'm playing this with 0.14.22 I'll still use rocket launch as the conclusion of this play through (at least for the purposes of this thread), but we might want to consider allowing for goals that are beyond that since in 0.15.x rocket launch is just the start of "space science".
NotABiter
Fast Inserter
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Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:05 am

Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Tue May 02, 2017 7:40 am

Planet Date: 75:07:49

Got another large wisp incursion in the western end of the solar array. Yeah, more trees need choppin'. (The wisps probably floated over the water to the south-west from the forest on the other side.)

Planet Date: 79:48:46

Map View
aj_041.jpg
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I've upgraded most of the exterior wall to be triple laser. (Still have to do a bit of the west wall.) As I got more base attacks I started upgrading to double laser, and they were still doing damage so I switched to triple before I had even gotten much converted over to being double. And even with triple-laser they are still doing damage - but at least the damage is minor enough that lasers are unlikely to be destroyed and the repair pack costs should be minimal. (I have independent roboports placed along all of the exterior wall for automated repairs.)

I mostly finished putting up the grid of militarized large power poles in the base interior... and then expanded to the south, so it doesn't have any of that yet. I had a few reasons for expanding to the south:
* I wanted to put in another east/west rail line and start grabbing some of the resources embedded in my solar array from the south.
* I have plans for that lake. The fact that the southern boundary of the lake has "mysteriously" become artificially straight might be a clue to what those plans are. (Clue #2: The north boundary will eventually also be straightened out.)
* Those lasers (exterior and interior) are sucking up a lot of power (146MW idle draw at present), so I'm expanding my solar array (which currently has 17k solar panels and 299GJ of accumulator capacity).

Planet Date: This was no time to be checking a calendar!

Attack
aj_041x.jpg
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And I certainly didn't have time to be taking pictures, but I must have accidentally hit the button on my aerial cam while trying to deploy destroyer bots (which, by the way, appear to be highly ineffective in this situation!). Back on planet date 49:22:06 I said something about going "a little overboard" on these very copper-smelting defenses. I TAKE IT ALL BACK! There's practically no defenses here! :lol: As can be seen, 167 items destroyed, 222 items in need of repair, and Biterzilla thinks it's being tickled and wants to play with more of my base. Oh, BTW, I would highly recommend NOT standing that close to Biterzilla. :lol: He one-shots gun turrets and noble planetary developers alike (and does area damage). (If anyone's wondering how he got into my base: He tunneled in.)
Some Biterzilla Stats
Code: Select all
health: 200000
heal rate: about 7 health per second
resistances:
   corrosion: 0/100%
   explosion: 10/40%
   physical: 8/40%

Even with all bullet and turret upgrades, you'd have to dump about 900 magazines (9,000 rounds) of AP ammo into Biterzilla to take him down. With lasers you could take him down in about one second.... if you could hit him with about 600 laser turrets at once. Of course, even with a solid giant block of lasers (magically powered without any poles/substations taking up space), with Biterzilla standing right in the center, there still wouldn't be nearly that many lasers in range. So with any practical defensive setup, it's going to take a while (and in the meantime - destruction). The numbers get even worse when you consider that while they're shooting at him he'll destroy them (and unlike normal biters, even while under fire Biterzilla destroys poles/substations which can then leave entire chunks of your defenses without power).

And some time later the "little guys" outside let me know they can still damage stuff too, despite my triple laser wall:
Frenzy Attack
aj_041y.jpg
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Planet Date: 85:31:30

Given "The Biterzilla Incident", it may come as no surprise that I've bolstered defenses around copper smelting:
defenses
aj_042.jpg
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I've done the same to the iron smelting area, and started adding defenses to The Iron Works. Other areas will also be getting more defenses.

Planet Date: 89:00:11

Phase one of my plans for the southern lake has now become reality:
Backup Power
aj_043.jpg
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This can provide ~200MW of power, which combined with my already existing backup power means I have a total backup power of 285MW. This at least provides some minimal safety, though it barely covers my current base power usage which is 272MW (230MW of that just for laser idle power - the new defenses around the backup power and around the coal fields aren't helping with that!).

I noticed that my existing backup power wasn't being fed fuel fast enough when it kicked in (190 steam engines on a single belt of fuel), so in the new setup I have 3 full steel chests of fuel buffering for every 20 steam engines. Each of these two "quadrants" is fueled by its own coal field. (The south-west quadrant is still in the process of filling its buffers.) With coal @ 8MJ each, that should provide a runtime of 47:03 just on buffered fuel. The old backup power has been retrofitted to have some buffering as well (though there I only added one chest of buffering per 20 steam engines due to space considerations, and it's using raw wood @ 4MJ each, so between those two limitations it only provides a runtime of about 7:50.)

Since I'm building this new backup power in quadrants (divided by the rail and by the lake), each with its own defenses, I figure that will limit the damage should Biterzilla decide to pop up anywhere in the backup power area. (Though having a good number of steel chests full of fuel destroyed would still sting a bit.)

Map View
aj_043b.jpg
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In addition to what was described previously, some other changes can be seen in the map overview:
* The old green circuits factory has gone away, just its iron field remains, and I've added an "Fe Ore 1" station. (It ships the ore to The Iron Works.)
* If you squint real hard you might be able to make out that I've also added some defenses to the new green circuit factory.
* Defenses have been improved immediately around and within (in the "cut outs") the solar array - before it was just 4 lasers near every substation, now it's a solid single line of lasers and a double wall.
* The lake in the middle of the solar array is being landfilled and covered with panels/accumulators.
* There is a new "Supplies" station at the main base. For now the first cargo car is 1/2 fuel and 1/2 repair packs and the second cargo car is "reserved for future use". (That train doesn't go anywhere yet, but I plan on making a new set of stations soon and that set will be the first destination for said supplies.)
* You might notice some places marked "Some Wood" and "Some Coal". Those are what they say - stuff that got mined that I couldn't be bothered to transport anywhere useful at the time, but I didn't want to lose track of where I left it.
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Tue May 16, 2017 8:05 am

Planet Date: 93:08:14

The planned new set of stations I mentioned last time is now in place:
South West Stations
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The supplies train now has some purpose and is servicing "SW1 Supply", and a train is delivering ore from "Fe Ore SW1" (collected from three different iron deposits) to The Iron Works. There's copper, coal, and stone nearby, so even though I'm not mining them yet I went ahead and set up stations for those... and then filled most of the remaining area with solar. I've got double laser rows all around the SW stations and waiting area, and double laser-rows between each set of stations (except between the supply and PAX lines which are very close together), as well as another set at the north end of the waiting area -- hopefully enough to keep the area relatively safe.

Planet Date: 94:15:08

I've mined out my existing stone patches, so I'm grabbing the sizeable patch just west of the home base stations. (Actually, I apparently mined out the stone a while ago, but only now noticed rails were no longer being produced because I had zero stone left in the system.)

Planet Date: ???

Home Base Attack
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OK, this is bad. Remember how I said it takes about 900 AP magazines to kill Biterzilla? Well, that's about how much he just destroyed tromping through my home base (taking out some steel chests of AP ammo along the way, along with every turret that got in his way, and a bunch of assemblers -- bots have already replaced the boxes, assemblers and turrets, but the ammo is of course just gone, as is the stack of 100 distractors that was in that other box he destroyed). At least I've learned my lesson from the Biterzilla attack at the copper smelting area and am now using distractors so I can stay at a safe distance (and maybe distract Biterzilla while the few nearby lasers whittle away at him? - I'm pretty sure I placed a bunch of lasers at some point in this fight, but of course they take a while to come online). My home base is one area that really didn't get any defensive upgrading after the earlier Biterzilla attack due to it being so packed with production stuff - though this attack is right in the north-east corner so even some exterior defense boosting would have helped.

Planet Date: 98:44:03

I've placed several lasers around the home base area, but it's still very weak on defenses. Doing any sort of proper defense there is going to require a lot of work (redoing production to allow for defenses). I've also doubled my production of destroyers/destractors.
Despite having a bazillion local oil spots, the battery plant was being constrained by lack of oil, so I've grabbed the spots south of the copper smelting area and set up "Oil 2" (source) and "Bat1 Oil" (destination) stations to rectify the situation (for now).
The southern half of the east wall has been expanded outward. Events indicate that my whole existing solar array is at risk - while tunneling spawners can't pop up in the middle of a densely packed built-up area like a solar array (they can only pop up in places where there is sufficient open area for a spawner), Biterzilla can pop up (and has popped up) pretty much anywhere. So far I've gotten lucky and he's popped up in the solar array in locations close enough to the edge of the array that there were lasers in range to draw him in and kill him, but counting on that luck continuing doesn't seem like a good idea. The new area claimed in the east is for a new, more sound, solar array - one with regular internal defenses throughout. Unfortunately I have to keep the "unsafe" solar array for now - I can't just convert it in-place to the new design right away because the new design only puts out about 1/2 the power as the old one due to the idle power of its internal defenses (lasers). Trying to use gun turrets as a lower-power alternative defense in the new array didn't seem workable - they just die too quickly, any sort of automated ammo loading system means they can't be densely packed, and their inferior range means you can't bring nearly as many to bear at once. Plus the ammo costs would be fairly large for each attack, even if the defense was successful, and that cost would likely be multiplied due to ammo getting destroyed before it could even be fired.

This is the first couple "tiles" of the array:
New Solar Array
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I usually don't have my solar arrays robot-networked, but I decided this time I would try to improve my ability to scale solar up by using more automated construction (rather than just using personal roboports). Plus, this will allow any destroyed components to be automatically replaced from the main base's production.
The defenses consist mainly of dense disks of lasers large enough to "easily" take out Biterzilla. To improve the efficiency a bit (improve the solar-to-laser ratio), in each of the four cardinal directions from each "laser disc" are a couple of "attractor" lasers, the idea being that the attractor lasers associated with two adjacent lasers disks are just close enough to close the gap (their ranges touch) so Biterzilla should have a limited amount of stuff it can destroy before coming into the range of some laser and being drawn into a disk and ultimately its own death. The array has regularly placed substations for power, but each laser disk has an extra substation placed in the middle of it to avoid too much of the disk going dark should Biterzilla take out one of the regularly placed substations.
I have included some rail and rail signals in the design. For the new solar array I'm just going to drop it right on top of any deposits for now, and will come back and temporarily dig them up later when I need them. Having some rail in place should hopefully mean I only have to dig up the area where the desired resource is (and a bit more for a minimal station) and not have to dig a path through the whole array.

Planet Date: ???

And Biterzilla strikes in pretty much the exact same spot as last time:
Home Base Attacked Again
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Once again AP ammo is destroyed, but this time the slightly improved defenses take him out before I get there, and the box of destractors is spared this time. Still, that's a lot of stuff destroyed. Someone should do something!
(Also in that picture you can see that I've greatly expanded the wood-for-fuel buffering which is fed by the "Tree Unload" train I use when destroying forests to get rid of wisps.)

Planet Date: 103:02:31

Production at the battery plant (refining/cracking/sulfur/acid/batteries) has been doubled. More was needed for lasers and accumulators for the new solar area.
The north-west quadrant of the new backup power area has been constructed, for another 130MW of backup power, bring the total backup power to 415MW. I've switched the fuel for the west quadrants to be primary solid fuel and coal only as backup (though I've got the coal temporarily cut-off entirely until the buffers in the north-west quadrant fill up and the belts can saturate with solid fuel). I'll do the same to the south-east quadrant eventually.

Map View
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I finished landfilling in the old solar array, and started landfilling (and placing some old-style solar) up north. The old solar has also been expanded to be right up next to the new backup power area, For the new solar array I've only got 3 "tiles" placed so far. The bypass line at the coal load/unload stations finally got a PAX station - I guess I must have needed it at some point and noticed it didn't have one.

I've seen a little glitch happening with my main base train setup, though I think (hope?) it's too minor to bother fixing. Because I attached the entrance to the north/south rail and the exit to the (northern) east/west rail, train pathing sometimes thinks it's a good idea to take a "short cut" through one of the HB stations rather than going through the 4-way intersection. If a train doing this happened to get stopped by the chain signal right next to one of the HB stations... I'm not sure if inserters would attempt to load/unload or not.

* * *

I've been slacking a bit lately on this playthrough... because I've been playing 0.15.x. :lol: I also ran into some issues with the older computer I'm using to play Factorio (which is ~9 years old, with 7+ years of logged uptime) - it was overheating and locking up for this factory (but not for my 0.15.x factory). Cleaning the dust bunnies out of the computer's insides though has done wonders - it no longer locks up, and as an unanticipated bonus my FPS went from 30 to 60. (Maybe fighting biters and wiping out forests won't feel like as much of a drag now.)
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:59 am

OK, no more excuses, and no more playing Factory Idle until I finish this planet...


Planet Date: 106:34:20

At last. Somebody finally did something about the lack of defenses in the main base:
Main Base Defenses
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The design I went with has columns of double lasers where the range of each column overlaps quite a bit with both of its neighbors'. That way no matter where Biterzilla shows up he's got several lasers on him and hopefully he ignores the production facilities and tries to go for the lasers, which would then result in even more lasers in range of him. Making room for these defenses of course required moving a whole lot of stuff around. The new defenses come with a new gridded-substation power setup, allowing a lot of the electric poles to be removed, but things like oil pumps get in the way and mess it up. (And, of course, once these defenses were in place Biterzilla never again attacks the main base area, so I don't even know how effective they would be.)


Planet Date: 118:46:52

Sometimes you just have to stop and smell the roses, or if you're factory-izing an alien planet, enjoy the view of the mixed belts:
Pretty Belts
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The mix of materials is essentially random and depends on what's being delivered at any given time, which in turn depends on what's been consumed recently and what was ready to be delivered. (While the intended function of the layers of splitters is to spread out the materials to the available passive providers, they also have the effect of mixing up the ingredients even more.)


Planet Date: 119:04:33

What's this? Looks like someone is tired of being here and wants off this rock:
Rocket Stuff
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This is kind of a lazy setup, but it'll do. (I don't even bother switching the efficiency modules for productivity 3s until the rocket gets past 50%, even though I have a large stack of productivity 3s sitting in my pocket.) Just need to add some rocket fuel.
I figured it would be just my luck to have Biterzilla show up just as the silo reaches 98%, so I added even more lasers.

Sometime later...

I grabbed an unused patch of oil a bit north of the East1 stations and set up dedicated rocket fuel production there:
Rocket Fuel Production
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It's using the same defensive setup as the main base (with some end caps added). Just in case more oil is needed I set up a pump by the "Oil 2" station and wired it so as long as there's plenty of oil down there it will try to pump it north to the rocket fuel production. At this point I just want it to end, so oil is just getting piped up, and rocket fuel is just getting belted to the main base. (Neither has to go that far anyways.)

Map View
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As can be seen above, there have been a few other changes as well:
* Set up "Oil 3" in the south-east (to help feed the main base where even more plastic is needed now for rocket bits).
* Moved the eastern wall out (and expanded the northern wall to match).
* Did some landfilling of the lakes reached by the eastern wall as well as almost the whole lake up by The Iron Works. (I realized that I was going to need to get water for the rocket fuel production from somewhere just in time to avoid getting rid of that lake entirely.)
* Laid out a lot more of the new "internally defended solar" design. (There's now 34K of solar panels.) I tried using bots the way I've seen some others do it - just let thousands of bots grab straight from production, fly vast distances and then put down giant arrays. I didn't really care for the extra 100MW of power that consumed, and it was sooooo slow, so I reverted to supplying materials on-site for the bots. (Hmm, "thousands" might be a slight exaggeration - I only have 1882 construction bots in the main network.)
* Tapped into iron and stone deposits along the southern wall (belted up to the SW stations and then sent by train).
* Put train tracks around much of the perimeter. Right now it's dual rails, but if I were to continue to try to expand this base I think I would go to triple rails so I could have the outside rail be dedicated to supplying the perimeter's independent roboports with repair packs, bots, and maybe some replacement parts. The other future use I had in mind for the perimeter rails was for temporarily connecting to the rails embedded in the new solar array whenever a deposit in the array was to be tapped. At present they're just for personal transport and shipping trees (except along part of the south wall where they are actually part of the rail-network proper).

And... that's a wrap:
Win
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(Not sure what those stats are talking about though - I don't remember killing any wooden chests. Maybe the biters did, but then Biterzilla killed a whole lot more than just 2 wooden chests. Apparently wisps killed with UV lights don't make it into the stats.)

Post game musings:

I find the end of the game to be more satisfying if, rather than just getting the rocket, it feels like I've conquered/mastered the planet - i.e. that there's really no threat left, and that expansion at that point has basically been trivialized. But here I couldn't really get to such a point - there's no conquering the Biterzilla threat (though additional tech research for lasers ala 0.15.x would help a bit with that, as would nuclear power), and the need to "manually" chop down trees to avoid problems with wisps becomes a major drag as the base scales up. (Unfortunately you can't just set up roboports and let bots wipe out large swaths because they would just get owned by the biters. So you're kind of stuck using personal roboports and chewing up the forests one "bite" at a time. That roboports on the perimeter try to "help" with tree clearing if you get too close to them is also annoying - they come pick up trees and then of course have no where to put them down, because they weren't supposed to be helping in the first place and are not wired to any sort of tree disposal network.) Expansion is also painful because the biters expand so fast (probably in part due to Armageddon's tunneling phase acting as an additional expansion phase) that I would clear out spawners on just one side of the base and before I could even get a full lasers+wall up they would be back, and then I'd clear them the 2nd time and finish the wall, but before I could clear all the nearby trees they would be back again.

New map:

Earlier I mentioned I stay away from marathon-type mods because they make the game too grindy. It occurred to me that what actually makes it grindy is having to get and set up so many resource patches to feed it, and bigger/richer resources should fix that and leave you with a game where you have a real purpose to building big. At least that's the theory I'm operating on. So, the new map (created with 0.15.9) has recipe/technology settings like the new "Marathon" mode, non-biter resource frequency settings like the new "Rail world" mode, and non-biter size/richness settings set to "Very big/Very good", with all other settings at default. (Notably, the pollution settings are all default, so the extra pollution from building big should add a bit of challenge, but hopefully not too much so long as defenses are not neglected.)

Optional extra challenge for advanced players with a good set of (marathon-tuned) blueprints ready to go: Try to get the "There is No Spoon Achievement" on this map. (I don't even have any idea how hard that would be, but I would like to try it some day - I'll need to build up a proper blueprint library first though.)

Code: Select all
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby Adventium_ » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:23 pm

I'm actually kind of interested in trying this. I'd wait until 0.15 is released.
I'm not very experienced, with only a little over 60 hours, and I haven't played with aggressive biters yet, so I probably keep it on peaceful again. But from what I've seen, I have a bit of an unusual way of doing things (partly because I play on peaceful) and it might be interesting for other people to see how I build, but I'm really still unsure about the whole thing.

Sidenote: my creativity isn't the best, but I'd try anyways if I do it.

EDIT: I will be going for it, but not immediately (maybe in a couple weeks). My brother will be joining me, and is also forcing me to play without peaceful. We'll see how that goes.

EDIT 2: oh boy here we go
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby Adventium_ » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:48 pm

Quick Note: I had to change the marathon-ness down to normal settings, as I don't have anything to work with that. Sorry.

So. The Company has requested me to test out the newly released version of their colonization equipment. Something about stability and working out bugs or something like that. Yeah right, they've been testing this stuff for months. They know it works. At least I'm getting paid.

Upon landing, I noticed several deposits that were extremely big and rich, but not much else. If I had to guess, this world is going to have more of these huge deposits, but they will be few and far between. Scans seem to indicate this is correct. Should be a normal conquer and launch, albeit with some changes to what I've been used to. Shouldn't be to hard.

Wait a minute...
Who's that?

Oh, you have got to be kidding me. It's my brother. What's he doing here? The numbskull can't even drive a car proplerly, let alone build an entire factory. I mean, look at him. He's over there punching some stone with no tools or anything. How did he complete basic training in the first place?
I don't really have a choice so I'll have to teach him something to be useful. Time to get started.

I think they just sent me here to have a good laugh. Still, they're paying me, so I guess I can't complain.
Plus there's a cool satellite in orbit to "document progress"

Day 1 Progress
Facotry Overview
Image

Iron Processing
Image

Copper Processing
Image

Coal Mine
Image

Steam engines
Image

Minimal aamount of assembly
Image

Steel
Image

My brother's radars
Image

No sign of biters so far.
Just another guy trying to learn how to build a factory.
"I'll do it properly this time I swear"
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby NotABiter » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:17 am

Adventium_ wrote:I had to change the marathon-ness down to normal settings, as I don't have anything to work with that.

I don't know what you mean by "I don't have anything to work with that". (This is a vanilla map - it requires absolutely no mods. And even with expensive recipes and tech it's a fairly easy map. The expensive settings do kind of need you to build big though, which was the whole point of the map - e.g. when "playtesting" this map I had 360+ speed 2 furnaces in my start area before my first real expansion, and after that it really went up.)

Adventium_ wrote:No sign of biters so far.

Just as long as one doesn't look at the minimaps in the assembly and steel pics you posted. :lol: (As can be seen, this map has a very easy to defend starting area because there's water on three sides and a *lot* of trees to the west between the start and the biters so pollution tends to not even reach them.)

Adventium_ wrote:If I had to guess, this world is going to have more of these huge deposits, but they will be few and far between.

Note that even though that was my intent and I set the ores to "Very Low Frequency", Factorio's resource generation is essentially broken so they are actually fairly common rather than "few and far between". (I only found that out while playtesting this map after I posted it, and I then complained about it here, here (picture), and here. This issue is also why there was so little iron in the first map I played in this thread even though that was set for "small but rich" - deposit size changes both frequency and richness, so selecting "big and low frequency" gets you "big and frequent {and extra rich}" while selecting "small but rich" gets you "small and poor {and extra infrequent}".)

Anyways, as long as you build big I'll consider not docking your pay. :lol:
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby Adventium_ » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:30 pm

Due to constantly checking up on my brother to make sure he didn't break anything, I forgot to do actual documenting. What you saw was some last-minute shots that I barely got in time. Also murdered that weird logo in the corner.
First off, I brought some personal equipment along with me. Nothing to major, just some quality of life stuff.
Mod List
Base Mod (duh)
Better Icons (updates some outdated icons)
Bullet Trails (adds bullet trails)
Clock (clock)
Enhanced Map Colors (changes map colors to make the map a bit more useful)
Even Distribution (changes CTRL + Click Drag)
Progressive Running (adds run acceleration)
Research Queue (adds a research queue)
WaiTex (HD mod)
Water Fix (changes some water boundary behavior for blending into biomes and tiles)


Meanwhile, we've been clearing some trees (pollution might be a bit more of a problem, but all in the way of progress) to make room for the expansion of the main bus.
Expansion
Image
Image


Some Extra Stuff:
Due to connection issues, we stopped early today, so here's some extra stuff. Should update tomorrow with real progress.

NotABiter wrote:I don't know what you mean by "I don't have anything to work with that".

What I really meant was due to my limited experience, I wouldn't do very well considering I don't know how to adjust what I'd normally do to account for higher material costs and the like. Also, my brother has never played the game before, so I didn't want to overcomplicate things too much for him, either. I hope you understand.

NotABiter wrote:Anyways, as long as you build big I'll consider not docking your pay. :lol:

One of my goals for this playthrough is to go big, which I haven't really done before. I haven't even done a proper main bus but I think I have the gist of it. Hope it's enough for full pay, or I might need to get another job really quickly :lol:
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby Adventium_ » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:54 am

Quick Note: Due to constant connection issues on LAN, I will be continuing this world my myself, and my brother will not join me.

We've finally had contact with the biters. Nothing too major, but they are starting to attack, and I need to make sure we are prepared in the future. Things can and will get a lot worse.
We did go and raid a small base that was annoyingly close

Image


In terms of the main belt, I have started with a small green circuit production that I will expand later, once necessary.

Image


I then upgraded the iron production. I then upgraded the iron production again.

Upgrade 1: Red belt
Image
Upgrade 2: Expansion
Image


Copper was also upgraded, but not as much. It is currently still at 2 steel smeltery blocks on yellow belt. Will probably also recieve an upgrade in the near future, after I upgrade the main bus to support the higher iron production.

I finished all Tier 2 (Red and Green) research already. I will need to expand into the oil field nearby and get oil production kicked off very soon.

That's all I have for today. Signing off.
Just another guy trying to learn how to build a factory.
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby Adventium_ » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:02 am

Unfortunately, I've been hitting a bit of a willpower roadblock for playing factorio right now. I've burnt myself out from a full playthrough, then starting this thread and a Bob's Mods world at the same time. I haven't really felt like playing Factorio very much recently, so I've decided that I need to take a break. This means I will not be continuing my factory on The von Neumann Thread. It was kinda fun while it lasted, but I never really got into it to make it enjoyable either. The constant connection issues I was having with my brother certainly didn't help.

Well, thats it. I wish luck to the next person coming along who wants to try this out. It changes it up a little bit as you start thinking about how the story will go as you play, and I'd definitely recommend it if you are thinking about it. You can still use NotABiter's world seed, and try to go for the marathon, too. It seems like a fun challenge that forces you to redesign a lot of systems without making any changes to the game.

OK, I'll admit it, I'm rambling again. Anyways, best of luck to whoever is out there. Signing off.
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Re: The von Neumann Thread

Postby ajranney » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:54 am

//Begin Mission Log
I felt groggy as I woke up. Looking at the HUD I had to blink a few times while I realized how long I had been out. Its been almost two years and I know that the rest of the corporation didn’t sleep while I did. My first assessment of the landing zone was that it was awesome. Large amounts of every resource, including some new green shiny ore too. The tech has changed since my last planet was prepped for the corporation. After reading some of the logs regarding the standardized changes I realized I was in for a hard time as this was going to be a *marathon* not a sprint. I requested two quick modifications and then got ready to start it all going. I will be using the mods TimeTools and AutoResearch.
//End Log
//Satalite image 1 uploaded
http://imgur.com/j5gJNms
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