Removing fluid temperature - thoughts?

[FuryoftheStars]

Reading through everyone’s thoughts and thinking about it, too, I’d support removal of fluid temp if the suggestion bobingabout made back at the end of the first page were implemented.

[Shenpen]

I make use of temperatures in a few cases. As in heated water used for disolving tar into a slurry. Other productions have a cold steam byproduct that is reheated before used in power generation. None of this actually relies on the game temperature setting as they are each their own "fluids". Is is nice though, that the temperature can be checked and verified at inspection. But definitely no big deal if the temperature is no longer part of game physics.

On the other hand I would love to see some form of fluid-fuel being implemented. Even if is just some kind of internal conversion to a solid fuel before burning it off. I have never understood why this should be a big issue regarding ups or other performance variable.

[Adamo]

For the love of god please do not do this. If you do this, I will no longer be able to maintain realism mods that reinstitute steam efficiencies that enabled me to normalize my chemical physics with my nuclear physics. It would be impossible to make modifications that match vanilla ratios in any reasonably-realistic way without being able to normalize the energy throughputs using the temperature. I would be incredibly disappointed if Factorio made this move away from using physics in its engine.

[Bilka]

On the other hand I would love to see some form of fluid-fuel being implemented. Even if is just some kind of internal conversion to a solid fuel before burning it off. I have never understood why this should be a big issue regarding ups or other performance variable.

The fluid energy source is a thing.

[Adamo]

On the other hand I would love to see some form of fluid-fuel being implemented. Even if is just some kind of internal conversion to a solid fuel before burning it off. I have never understood why this should be a big issue regarding ups or other performance variable.

The fluid energy source is a thing.

In fact, I *just* posted a mod that adds a fluid-burning boiler and fuel_values to existing fluids, plus a methane source to burn directly (and more clearly). https://mods.factorio.com/mod/adamo-carbon/downloads

[Shenpen]

I *just* posted a mod that adds a fluid-burning boiler

Yeah. Just saw that. Will check it out.

Why do I remember that fluid fuels was "impossible"?

[BlueTemplar]

Maybe it was only added in 0.16.0 ?
https://wiki.factorio.com/Version_history/0.16.0#0.16.0

Added FluidPrototype::fuel_value and Generator::burns_fluid.

[FuryoftheStars]

Maybe it was only added in 0.16.0 ?
https://wiki.factorio.com/Version_history/0.16.0#0.16.0

Added FluidPrototype::fuel_value and Generator::burns_fluid.

Hmm, I thought I found something indicating 0.17.0? I'm fairly sure it was a post by bobingabout saying that he had managed to get the devs to put it in or something, but as I didn't bookmark the thread or anything, I doubt I'm going to find it now.

EDIT: Oh, generator is different from boiler, though. Yeah, they've had generator for a bit (think ks power mod).

EDIT 2: Here we go. From the 0.17.0 patch notes:

{...}
Modding

• {...}
• Added "fluid" energy_source type can be used for both fuel-value based fluids, and heat capacity based fluids configured the same was as the generator entity.

[BlueTemplar]

Oh, my bad, yes, generators (direct electricity) ≠ boilers (energy to calorific fluid, like steam)...

Was about to post this example of generators in 0.16

The generators aren't new to 0.17 though :

0.16_generators.png (4.36 MiB) Viewed 4924 times

Here's the prototype for that Diesel Generator, for the last 0.16 KS Power (0.2.5) :

Code: Select all

data:extend({
	{
		type = "item",
		name = "petroleum-generator",
		icon = "__KS_Power__/graphics/diesel-generator-icon.png",
    icon_size = 32,
		flags = {"goes-to-quickbar"},
		subgroup = "energy",	
		order = "b[steam-power]-d[petroleum-generator]",		
		place_result = "petroleum-generator",
		stack_size = 20,
	},
	{
    type = "recipe",
    name = "petroleum-generator",
    energy_required = 15,
    enabled = "false",
    ingredients =
    {
      {"steel-plate", 12},
      {"engine-unit", 8},
      {"electronic-circuit", 16},
      {"pipe", 10}
    },
    result = "petroleum-generator"
  },
	{
		type = "generator",
		name = "petroleum-generator",
    icon = "__KS_Power__/graphics/diesel-generator-icon.png",
    icon_size = 32,
		flags = {"placeable-neutral","player-creation"},
    minable = {mining_time = 2, result = "petroleum-generator"},
    max_power_output = (4/60).."MJ",
		max_health = 300,
		corpse = "big-remnants",
		effectivity = 1,
    fluid_usage_per_tick = 1/60,
    burns_fluid = true,
    scale_fluid_usage = true,
    maximum_temperature = 1000, --not needed...
		resistances =
		{
			{
				type = "fire",
				percent = 70
			}
		},
		collision_box = {{-0.7, -2.7}, {0.7, 2.7}},
		selection_box = {{-1, -3}, {1, 3}},
		fluid_box =
		{
			base_area = 1,
      base_level = -1,			
      height = 2,
      pipe_covers = pipecoverspictures(),
      production_type = "input-output",
			pipe_connections =
			{
				{ position = {-1.5, 0.5}, type = "input-output" },
				{ position = {1.5, 0.5}, type = "input-output" },
			},
		},
		energy_source =
		{
			type = "electric",
      usage_priority = "secondary-output",
      emissions = 3/1000
		},
    vehicle_impact_sound =  { filename = "__base__/sound/car-metal-impact.ogg", volume = 0.65 },
		horizontal_animation =
		{
			filename = "__KS_Power__/graphics/dg_h_sheet.png",
			width = 448,
			height = 256,
			frame_count = 8,
			line_length = 4,
			shift = {0.5,-0.40},
      flags = {"no-crop"},
      animation_speed = 0.8,
      scale = 0.5,
      run_mode = "forward-then-backward"
      },
      vertical_animation =
      {
        filename = "__KS_Power__/graphics/dg_v_sheet.png",
        width = 256,
        height = 448,
        frame_count = 8,
        line_length = 4,
        shift = {0.8,0.1},
        flags = {"no-crop"},
        animation_speed = 0.8,
        scale = 0.5,
      },			
      smoke =
      {
        {
          name = "tank-smoke",
          north_position = {0.42, -0.85},
          east_position = {-1.15, -2.0},
          frequency = 10 / 32,
          starting_vertical_speed = 0.06,
          slow_down_factor = 1,
          starting_frame_deviation = 60
        },
        {
          name = "tank-smoke",
          north_position = {-0.42, -0.85},
          east_position = {-1.15, -1.8},
          frequency = 10 / 32,
          starting_vertical_speed = 0.06,
          slow_down_factor = 1,
          starting_frame_deviation = 60
        },
      },
      working_sound =
      {
        sound ={
          {
            filename = "__KS_Power__/sounds/diesel-loop-1.ogg",
            volume = 0.5
          },
          {
            filename = "__KS_Power__/sounds/diesel-loop-2.ogg",
            volume = 0.5
          },
          {
            filename = "__KS_Power__/sounds/diesel-loop-3.ogg",
            volume = 0.5
          },
        },
        match_speed_to_activity = true,
        max_sounds_per_type = 2,
      },
      
      min_perceived_performance = 0.4,
      performance_to_sound_speedup = 0.2
    },
    {
      type = "recipe",
      name = "diesel-fuel",
      category = "chemistry",
      enabled = false,
      energy_required = 5,
      ingredients =
      {
        {type="fluid", name="petroleum-gas", amount=20},
        {type="fluid", name="light-oil", amount=20}
      },
      results=
      {
        {type="fluid", name="diesel-fuel", amount=30, temperature = 25}
      },
      main_product= "",
      icon = "__KS_Power__/graphics/diesel-fuel-recipe.png",
      icon_size = 32,
      subgroup = "fluid-recipes",
      order = "b[fluid-chemistry]-i[diesel-fuel]"
    },
    {
      type = "technology",
      name = "petroleum-generator",
      icon = "__KS_Power__/graphics/diesel-generator-t1.png",
      icon_size = 128,
      effects =
      {
        {
          type = "unlock-recipe",
          recipe = "petroleum-generator"
        },
        {
          type = "unlock-recipe",
          recipe = "diesel-fuel"
        }
      },
      prerequisites = {"advanced-oil-processing","engine"},
      unit =
      {
        count = 150,
        ingredients = {{"science-pack-1", 1},{"science-pack-2", 1},{"science-pack-3", 1}},
        time = 60
      },
      order = "f-b-d"
    },
    {
      type = "fluid",
      name = "diesel-fuel",
      default_temperature = 0,
      max_temperature = 25,
      auto_barrel = true,
      heat_capacity = "1KJ",
      base_color = {r=0.8, g=0.7, b=0},
      flow_color = {r=0.5, g=0.4, b=0},
      icon = "__KS_Power__/graphics/diesel-fuel.png",
      icon_size = 32,
      order = "a[fluid]-i[diesel-fuel]",
      pressure_to_speed_ratio = 0.4,
      flow_to_energy_ratio = 0.59,
    }
	})
  

And from data-updates.lua :

Code: Select all

local fuel_values = {
  ["crude-oil"] = "2.5MJ",
  ["light-oil"] = "3MJ",
  ["heavy-oil"] = "2MJ",
  ["petroleum-gas"] = "3MJ",
  ["diesel-fuel"] = "4MJ",
}

local emissions = {
  ["crude-oil"] = 1.35,
  ["light-oil"] = 1.1,
  ["heavy-oil"] = 1.2,
  ["petroleum-gas"] = 1,
  ["diesel-fuel"] = 0.8,
}

[Shenpen]

On the other hand I would love to see some form of fluid-fuel being implemented. Even if is just some kind of internal conversion to a solid fuel before burning it off. I have never understood why this should be a big issue regarding ups or other performance variable.

The fluid energy source is a thing.

Thank you for pointing out something that I had totally missed. I have now found a way to burn methane, kerosine and other fuels in KS Power!

[Shenpen]

I *just* posted a mod that adds a fluid-burning boiler and fuel_values to existing fluids, plus a methane source to burn directly (and more clearly). https://mods.factorio.com/mod/adamo-carbon/downloads

I dont find any option for fluid burning boiler. Just one technology with four recipes. All works perfectly and I can burn the methane in KS Power.

burning methane.png (3.54 MiB) Viewed 4906 times

[Adamo]

I *just* posted a mod that adds a fluid-burning boiler and fuel_values to existing fluids, plus a methane source to burn directly (and more clearly). https://mods.factorio.com/mod/adamo-carbon/downloads

I dont find any option for fluid burning boiler. Just one technology with four recipes. All works perfectly and I can burn the methane in KS Power.

burning methane.png

The gas-fired boiler introduced in the Adamo Carbon mod will burn any fluids with a fuel_value. But yes, KS Power should work fine, too! My gas-fired boiler should be gated behind fluid handling. I'll talk to you more in the discussion there, since you asked me a question there.

[Shenpen]

Turns out I was just being particularly blind yesterday. Works perfectly!

gas-generators.png (2.3 MiB) Viewed 4862 times

[DaveMcW]

I support anything that improves fluid performance in the base game, no matter how many mods have to be sacrificed.

[BlueTemplar]

For the love of god please do not do this. If you do this, I will no longer be able to maintain realism mods that reinstitute steam efficiencies that enabled me to normalize my chemical physics with my nuclear physics. It would be impossible to make modifications that match vanilla ratios in any reasonably-realistic way without being able to normalize the energy throughputs using the temperature. I would be incredibly disappointed if Factorio made this move away from using physics in its engine.

From Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes :

I just saw that people are seriously talking about removing temperature, now, too. Good lord I hope we are not going down a bad path.

The fluid temperature conversation was over with 0.17.0 release, such a big modding change would have to be done with a major version. I suggest to take a look at post dates before freaking out about potential changes.

Well, maybe you can understand my worry! People have been bringing it up during these conversations, then I saw the posts over there. OK, I'm glad to hear it isn't happening.

I guess that Adamo might be more concerned about this change being implemented at all, rather than, say, about having it suddenly pop up in the next experimental ?

[Koub]

I support anything that improves fluid performance in the base game, no matter how many mods have to be sacrificed.

I agree with Dave : if I have to choose between sacrificing vanilla and sacrificing mods, I'll sacrifice mods.
If similar performance can be achieved for vanilla while letting things possible for mods, then I'm totally fine.

[Adamo]

I support anything that improves fluid performance in the base game, no matter how many mods have to be sacrificed.

I agree with Dave : if I have to choose between sacrificing vanilla and sacrificing mods, I'll sacrifice mods.
If similar performance can be achieved for vanilla while letting things possible for mods, then I'm totally fine.

It's not about sacrificing mods. It's about further moving away from doing actual physics. Do we really want to continue to move away from realism in this game? We've already stopped using efficiencies. I still use them, but, a smart man would see that their number is up in the code.

[Koub]

My stance is that if realism in a game gets in the way of having fun, then I'm OK to sacrifice as much realism as needed to maximize the fun.
Now I KNOW "having fun" is extremely subjective, and there are as many ways to have fun as there are people, so that's not a easy equation to solve.

If I wanted to be a little provocative, I'd say that if I wanted ultimate realism, I already have real life for that. I have never seen a game that was overwhelmingly accurate realism-wise, so I'm fine with not prioritizing realism overall.

I take the example of the movies and series, which are quite a source of entertainment. Being a science & tech geek myself, I cry tears of blood almost every time anything sciency or techy is said, despite being an expert in nothing. I just can't imagine how an expert will feel with the bullshit we see/hear in movies.

Well it's the same-ish for the games, including Factorio. At one point of expertise, there is no way people won't start to see inaccuracies. But that's what incredulity suspension is for. As long as the experience is fun, I'm willing to deal with it.

[FuryoftheStars]

I'd be ok with the removal of temp for the performance gain if its as good as implied (again, though, with the caveat of what bobingabout suggested back at the end of page one). I think just about anything that could be done with temp before can still be simulated with current mechanics, just not with as fine tuned of a result. Different temp fluids would just now be literally different fluids and mixing them could be simulated with a chem plant. The buildings that are meant to only take fluids in a certain temp range I think can still be limited in this same fashion, too.

[PyroFire]

What are your thoughts?
Do you do something super interesting that is only possible with temperature?
Would it be a huge loss if we removed temperature?
If it were to be removed, would you request some functionality in its place?
Do you have any differing suggestions for the fluid and temperature systems?

TEMPERATURE HOW?????








Or in other words, even if i wanted to make a mod... yeah, no circuit conditions? Erm... how is such a mod going to work considering potentially unreliable temperature throughput, which probably needs to be measured on pumps?
Down with temperature!

Interestingly i've actually accounted for such situations in my randomizer mod's rando logic, but that's not entirely finished yet because it's just awkward to write for.


P.S.

Steamtorio: Factorio but everything is powered with steam.
I could change electricity to steam fluidboxes no problem, just for fun. Each requiring some temperature mix. ... but how to measure/automate????