Version 0.18.22

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badtouchatr
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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by badtouchatr »

conn11 wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:54 pm
leoch wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:24 pm
Er, yes. Yay, a "minor patch" broke lots of stuff!

Any chance you guys can use SemVer and do at least rudimentary testing that patch-releases don't break mods? This also implies checking a player *really* wants to upgrade to the next minor version (e.g. 0.19).
In addition to Kyralessa.
Since most play on Steam itβ€˜s even easier:
Just donβ€˜t select the .X version in the Beta Branche and only the version *really* wanted.
yes, this is what i do as well, to avoid issues exactly like this one. being on the bleeding edge of a software release (in general, not just games) is NOT always a good idea. sometimes, yes, but definitely not always.

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steinio
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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by steinio »

Wow all this stupid complaints.
There was an early enough warning for this change and as the game is under developement there probably are another significant changes which will break mods again.

So stop crying like a baby.
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Syntered
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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Syntered »

Hi All,

Decently long time player (started ~15.someting) but i have not commented until now. I regularly play with and without mods, usually on an version 1 to 2 behind the most current experimental version, to make sure the mods (if any) have caught up and any quick fixes are implemented.

In general I have found the Factorio community one of the better ones around, with most people going out of their way to help others. That is one of the many enjoyable factors in this game.

Some responses on this thread however have been an exception to that - These responses were petty and childish, and do not rise to the normal level of the community. I ask that you all think before you next type - it costs little to be polite, if you cant be polite maybe it is best not to answer. Remember, if you have several conversations in which there is a conflict, consider the common factor in all of your conversations and fix that.

Syntered
Last edited by Syntered on Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

conn11
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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by conn11 »

As of the update itself; the ejected shell graphic is a welcomed nuance. Making negotiations for more building space even more entertaining.

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Philip017
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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Philip017 »

being on experimental and with the prep for a 1.0 release, expect changes that are going to break mods and change things that would previously have a full version update to change.

v18 has already seen alot of mods break because of changes and modifications, expect this to continue as the devs clean up the code and tidy the game up, if you are frustrated by these changes please consider using the latest stable version.

the experimental branch is to help get feedback from the community to help improve the game and fix bugs.

we appreciate your patience in the process of these transitions and thank you for your feedback.

stay safe and enjoy the game while staying at home.

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Oktokolo »

leoch wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:15 pm
Yes, I probably shouldn't play the alpha. This was somewhat unintentional (was using the 0.17.x beta and forgot that experimental updates were enabled, hit "update" as usual... whoops).
Just downgrade back to stable and ignore the changes. When this changes hit stable, mods are probably already fixed.

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by malventano »

Klonan wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:02 pm
Also the API removal that broke mods was removed in version 0.15, and left in with some internal migration. The API has been non-functional for nearly 3 years, and these mods are just plain wrong for having these values.
For migrations like these, it might be worth throwing up some sort of warning on launch for a few versions before discontinuing support. That would shed a brighter light on the upcoming issue and give mod authors a chance to update their code.
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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by malventano »

steinio wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:37 pm
Wow all this stupid complaints.
There was an early enough warning for this change and as the game is under developement there probably are another significant changes which will break mods again.

So stop crying like a baby.
There was warning, but it was issued years ago, and a mod creator isn't going to go through every single version release notes looking for something that might be about to be discontinued and was only mentioned in a few places a long time ago.
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Want to improve fluid flow between pumps / across longer distances? Try my Manifolds mod.

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Kyralessa »

Syntered wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:57 pm
Some responses on this thread however have been an exception to that - These responses were petty and childish, and do not rise to the normal level of the community. I ask that you all think before you next type - it costs little to be polite, if you cant be polite maybe it is best not to answer. Remember, if you have several conversations in which there is a conflict, consider the common factor in all of your conversations and fix that.
There are moderators on this board who can give out warnings and even edit away truly offensive remarks. I've seen it happen.

I can't speak for how the Factorio devs might react, but personally it strikes me as quite offensive to come to a board like this and presume to school the software developers on how software development works, as leoch did. That's what set off the responses you seem to disapprove of.

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Pi-C »

malventano wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 12:52 am
steinio wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:37 pm
There was an early enough warning for this change
There was warning, but it was issued years ago,
There was a warning just a day before 0.18.22 was released in the Upcoming breaking mod changes thread. I was lucky enough to see it shortly after it had been posted, I was even more lucky that the change didn't affect any of my mods -- and I just subscribed to the thread so I won't miss any of these posts in the future. :-D
A good mod deserves a good changelog. Here's a tutorial (WIP) about Factorio's way too strict changelog syntax!

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by GeneralTank »

Pi-C wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 am
malventano wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 12:52 am
steinio wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:37 pm
There was an early enough warning for this change
There was warning, but it was issued years ago,
There was a warning just a day before 0.18.22 was released in the Upcoming breaking mod changes thread. I was lucky enough to see it shortly after it had been posted, I was even more lucky that the change didn't affect any of my mods -- and I just subscribed to the thread so I won't miss any of these posts in the future. :-D
Also the mods that are still broken for me are some of the older mods on the site with two dating back to 0.13 so its no surprise some old code got left in there.

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steinio
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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by steinio »

Pi-C wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 am
malventano wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 12:52 am
steinio wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:37 pm
There was an early enough warning for this change
There was warning, but it was issued years ago,
There was a warning just a day before 0.18.22 was released in the Upcoming breaking mod changes thread. I was lucky enough to see it shortly after it had been posted, I was even more lucky that the change didn't affect any of my mods -- and I just subscribed to the thread so I won't miss any of these posts in the future. :-D
viewtopic.php?p=292733#p292733

So 3 years is still not early enough.

As the fix is so easy just do it yourself if you can't wait for the mod author.

Quick fix for all lazy B's: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/zzz_fix_your_shit
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GeneralTank
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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by GeneralTank »

steinio wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 12:31 pm
Pi-C wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 am
malventano wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 12:52 am
steinio wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:37 pm
There was an early enough warning for this change
There was warning, but it was issued years ago,
There was a warning just a day before 0.18.22 was released in the Upcoming breaking mod changes thread. I was lucky enough to see it shortly after it had been posted, I was even more lucky that the change didn't affect any of my mods -- and I just subscribed to the thread so I won't miss any of these posts in the future. :-D
viewtopic.php?p=292733#p292733

So 3 years is still not early enough.

As the fix is so easy just do it yourself if you can't wait for the mod author.

Quick fix for all lazy B's: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/zzz_fix_your_shit
Some of us weren't even here back then (I got the game around the begin of 0.17) and not everyone wants to mess with code.

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by _Attila_ »

The thing is that there was no reason to make mods with obsolete keywords that did nothing for years not to load at all. It would have been enough to display a warning on load that the mod is using some outdated code. One could live with the warnings, but breaking a mod that one relies on is a drastic measure.

While many of us can fix such issues ourselves, many people will have to abandon their games for something that could have been handled much netter.
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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Pi-C »

_Attila_ wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 1:31 pm
One could live with the warnings, but breaking a mod that one relies on is a drastic measure.
I agree it's bad for people who rely on mods where the author is MIA. Otherwise, I guess it shouldn't be too hard to fix this -- how many Custom Inputs will there be in a mod? It's not like you'd have to change this in a hundred places, one or two lines should be all it takes in most cases -- most I've seen so far was five or six lines in one mod that needed to be changed.

So, getting this fixed is easy, once you're aware of it. A warning may be overlooked and ignored because, you know, it's just a warning. But a hard crash? Your users will urge you to fix this, so that's a drastic but efficient way to get mods to finally abandon the old stuff. :-)
A good mod deserves a good changelog. Here's a tutorial (WIP) about Factorio's way too strict changelog syntax!

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Kyralessa »

They're preparing for 1.0.

It makes perfect sense to clean up on the experimental branch in preparation for the 1.0 release, which presumably they're trying to make clean out-of-the-box.

Nobody is forced to play on the experimental branch.

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Anson »

Pi-C wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 2:42 pm
_Attila_ wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 1:31 pm
One could live with the warnings, but breaking a mod that one relies on is a drastic measure.
I agree it's bad for people who rely on mods where the author is MIA. Otherwise, I guess it shouldn't be too hard to fix this ...
... So, getting this fixed is easy, once you're aware of it. A warning may be overlooked and ignored because, you know, it's just a warning. But a hard crash? Your users will urge you to fix this, so that's a drastic but efficient way to get mods to finally abandon the old stuff. :-)
You (PiC) are right as long as you speak to mod authors.

but what about users ? to update mods we can't use the ingame mod portal when the game no longer can be started. there are two not-so-convenient options now: either we have to find the proper mod directory, delete the mods and download new versions from the mod portal, or we can first start the game dozens of times, each time disabling one more mod (and hopefully not forgetting to take notes which mods, so that we can check when those mods all are updated, and re enable them later). then we have to update mods (and wait for some mod authors to notice the problem only days or weeks later). then re enable the mods. quite some nasty work when we want to simply start and play as usual.

when using the steam version, downgrading to the last version is relatively easy. that's what i did as soon as i got the error the second time, showing that it was some "systematic" error probably affecting several/many mods, but now i don't know which mods all are affected by that. I'll just have to wait a week or two before trying again. hopefully there will be no other changes (in the game or in mods) that require the latest version of the game. at least i now can update mods ingame.
but the standalone game is not easily downgradable, it has only the option to upgrade, and for downgrading it has to be downloaded and re installed somehow.

as much as i hate launcher programs, NOW i would have liked to have a launcher that shows all conflicts and allows me to update mods "ingame" before disabling them, or that even would have an option to downgrade as easily as upgrading ingame is.
Pi-C wrote:There was a warning just a day before 0.18.22 was released in the Upcoming breaking mod changes thread. I was lucky enough to see it shortly after it had been posted, I was even more lucky that the change didn't affect any of my mods -- and I just subscribed to the thread so I won't miss any of these posts in the future. :-D
yes, nice to have such warnings. but useful mostly for mod authors and pretty much useless for users. and as i understand it, after having the situation already for almost three years, was it necessary to do the change now with only a single day warning ?


of course, we are spoiled by the devs,
giving us an early access game that for many years already is more reliable than many "finished" AAA++ games.

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Hiladdar »

From my observation, I do not see any major changes, how the game is played, but internal changes designed for optimization, bug clean up, and UI enhancements. We received several heads up about how 0.18.xx would be managed, and based on my experience, the developers are doing what they said they were going to do. Additionally we are not seeing major changes. Mores so, when changes will affect developed mods, we are giving a heads up. The best graphic analogy I can come up with, is making blood sausage, a revolting procedure that produces a delightful end product. We are in the in the tail end of the "revolting" stage right now, not as bad as 0.17.xx was at some times but still ...

In summery, developers thanks for doing what you are doing and giving us, especially the mod developers a heads up.

Hiladdar

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Anson »

Kyralessa wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 5:02 pm
It makes perfect sense to clean up on the experimental branch in preparation for the 1.0 release ...
Nobody is forced to play on the experimental branch.
correct in both points,
but if you want to play with mods you mostly are forced to play with any experimental 0.18 while the last stable is still 0.17.79

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Re: Version 0.18.22

Post by Pi-C »

Anson wrote: ↑
Fri May 01, 2020 5:20 pm
You (PiC) are right as long as you speak to mod authors.

but what about users ? to update mods we can't use the ingame mod portal when the game no longer can be started. there are two not-so-convenient options now: either we have to find the proper mod directory, delete the mods and download new versions from the mod portal, or we can first start the game dozens of times, each time disabling one more mod (and hopefully not forgetting to take notes which mods, so that we can check when those mods all are updated, and re enable them later). then we have to update mods (and wait for some mod authors to notice the problem only days or weeks later). then re enable the mods. quite some nasty work when we want to simply start and play as usual.
Agreed on that. About remembering which mods you disabled: Do you know that you can synchronize mods with a saved game? With just one click, all missing mods will be activated (after being downloaded, if necessary), you can also chose to keep mods that haven't been used in the saved game active. Quite a convenient feature. :-)
when using the steam version, downgrading to the last version is relatively easy. that's what i did as soon as i got the error the second time, showing that it was some "systematic" error probably affecting several/many mods, but now i don't know which mods all are affected by that. I'll just have to wait a week or two before trying again. hopefully there will be no other changes (in the game or in mods) that require the latest version of the game. at least i now can update mods ingame.
but the standalone game is not easily downgradable, it has only the option to upgrade, and for downgrading it has to be downloaded and re installed somehow.
I downloaded the standalone game and unpacked it into two different directories. One contains the game at the latest version that is known to run without problems, so I could continue playing if I had the time. The other is for testing and always gets updated to the latest version, so I can test my mods in it. When I want to update my playing version, I usually just remove the contents of bin/ and data/ and copy these from the testing version. If it doesn't work for some reason, I still can unpack the zip file and get it working again. Takes some additional disk space, but is quite efficient. :-)
Pi-C wrote:There was a warning just a day before 0.18.22 was released in the Upcoming breaking mod changes thread. I was lucky enough to see it shortly after it had been posted, I was even more lucky that the change didn't affect any of my mods -- and I just subscribed to the thread so I won't miss any of these posts in the future. :-D
yes, nice to have such warnings. but useful mostly for mod authors and pretty much useless for users.
Disagree. If users see such a warning, they should know that the changes may break something -- especially if they use many mods. If they know that (yes, that's assuming they've seen the warning, which may not always be the case), they could decide to delay the update for a day or two and see if anybody complains. On the other hand, if everybody did this, chances are the bugs wouldn't be found because nobody reported a crash. So, now that I'm a modder myself, I appreciate that people take the risk to use the experimental version, and before I began modding, I made it a point to update the game and mods (knowing that I always could restore a running version of the game), and to file bug reports if something crashed.
and as i understand it, after having the situation already for almost three years, was it necessary to do the change now with only a single day warning ?
Agreed, something like a week's notice would have been better. It still wouldn't have guaranteed that everybody would have noticed it …
A good mod deserves a good changelog. Here's a tutorial (WIP) about Factorio's way too strict changelog syntax!

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