Klonan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:03 am
Aflixion wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:20 pm
Klonan wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:59 pm
Theikkru wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:45 pm
it just kicks the can down the road
That was the intent
Kicking the can down the road doesn't solve the problem
You must be referring to a different problem,
Delaying the multiple output recipe spreads out the introduction of new concepts,
We felt that the problem is too many new concepts at once, the oil harvesting, fluid wagon, refineries, chemical plants, etc.
We think and feel that the changes break the process down into more digestible chunks,
At its introduction now, you only need to deal with Crude -> Petroleum -> Plastic + Sulfur
Then later the more advanced recipes and fluids are introduced after blue science
To me, I feel like this isn't 'kicking the can down the road', its breaking up a concept from a large and more complex item into smaller and more manageable pieces.
I always believe, in Factorio, work, life, planning, cooking, programming, music, etc. Smaller things, smaller scope, smaller scale, is always better.
And this change aligns with my belief, we break the game content apart into a set of smaller and more approachable challenges.
Crude>Petroleum>Plastic+Sulfur is not difficult in the slightest, it's not hard to manage. Nothing is learnt at this stage now, only more of the same is setup.
Pumpjacks, are a concept familiar enough with the player, from miners.
Fluid wagons are a concept familiar to the player from regular wagons, exposed to regardless in the red/green era, as they expand for mining.
Refineries are indeed a new concept.
Chemical plants at this stage are not a new concept, they work like assembling machines, only they take fluids.
All but the refinery have an analogous to regular processing that the player has already done, the only difference is that these input and output some fluids
And Fluid handling is introduced earlier, perhaps tanks are somewhat new but that's about it. The concept of fluid handling isn't even difficult in and of itself anyway, as pipes are actually far in a way simpler than belts. Their throughput is hardly limiting, they flow in both directions, and pumps aren't something the player really has to contend with for managing the flow of fluids yet if ever. They're connect and go.
You know what I was thinking the first time I set up my refineries?
"This is too simple, there's something about pipes I'm missing, surely they don't just work, what's their throughput like, is it enough, something's going to break because there's something about pipes I missed...
Oh, it worked, huh."
I'm not kidding.
Now the introduction of three fluids, the only real new concept, and their interactions is introduced at the same time a new player is thrown two cracking recipes, and lubricant, and is expected to go learn and setup all of that all at once, then almost immediately ramp it up to max speed to feed the new blue science technologies they're using. All whilst not actually knowing how much of each fraction they might use, because they haven't used
any yet.
I explained more previously why the previous basic oil processing teaches a good amount, not too much. It introduces new concepts, such as the refinery backing up (though I also explained why this in and of itself is not a difficult concept to grasp, if it is shown apparently to the player), that need to be taught and prepared before the ramp up to full production that will inevitably happen in blue science.
The green/red era is long, but it's not necessarily a problem, players can tackle whatever part they want in whatever order they want, that's part of it's fun, that's why there are multiple research branches in the same tier. Not to mention it's been explained and linked to plenty of times
why the green/red era is long, and oil is only a small part of that. I've covered several ways to deal with specific actionable complaints about the red/green era. With the existence of these multiple things you seem to want to cover, it seems like you all either can't agree what the actual problem you want to address is, or the problem list is quite long and you are trying to tackle it all with a singular sweeping change.
For not giving the player the tools to 'deal' with oil fractions, which keeps pressure to advance high and makes some people nervous about sustainability:
Make cracking a red/green science. A small cracking only science in red/green isn't going to make red/green any longer than it already is, since that's not where the time sink lies.
For giving the player more sustainability before cracking:
Balance the basic oil processing ratio, reducing light and heavy oil output, reducing the pressure to get something sustainable going, evening out the difference between blue science solid fuel usage and light/heavy production and giving the player more time, perhaps unlimited time, before their tanks back up. Though, their tanks
should back up, it's an incredibly good teaching moment.
For if you really wanted to smooth the progression and shorten the red/green era:
The only true way to do this is to give some more carrot in the red/green era to keep the player going. Split green and some blue science into a new science pack. There is simply no way to reconcile the increase in logistics required for blue science into some reasonable complexity/production jump, the resolution is too low, it requires another step.
This would be the perfect opportunity to make the 'chemical' science pack actually require
mostly chemicals from oil processing, giving the player a nice carrot shortly after setting it up. Given the other activities of the red/green era, the other pack would fit well as an exploration/expansion themed pack. This is a big balance change, but you seem ok with those right now, it makes sense internally in the game, and it is truly the only way to smooth the 'reward curve' if that's what you want to do.