Version 0.17.60

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Deadlock989
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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Deadlock989 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:39 pm

Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:30 pm
The devs have made their game better
Opinion. With which many people disagree.

Your suggestion that the game is "the same" because the path from first ore to space science is "the same" isn't even worth a response, sorry.

It is indeed fortunate that the game is moddable. I think that's what will keep it around longer and sell more copies in the long run. Not by addressing interface symptoms by dumbing the game down.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Mike5000 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:13 pm

Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:30 pm
The devs have made their game better
Peak factorio was 0.16.

Priority splitters were the last major improvement. Since then it's just been unbalancing, demo downgrade, dumbing down, and needier graphics.

People who prefer to play Stardew are not going to play Factorio, but the dumbing down is losing people who wanted to play Factorio.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Astrella » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:39 pm

Needier graphics that are completely opt in? Like you don't have to do the high res versions, I know I don't.

And honestly, all this talk about dumbing down just makes you all come over as elitists. Like, stuff like "I'm not even going to respond to that" etc. doesn't make ya'll come over as if you're really interested in discussion instead of just complaining. And don't get me wrong, I love challenging content, but I don't think making the game accessible and it being challenging are opposing concepts.

Not to mention you as an individual are not the sole audience of this game, I can recognize that some changes that don't interest me do interest and benefit others. The devs have made this game incredibly moddable, which is something they deliberately did I have to emphasize, so that people can tool the experience to their liking.

And again lastly, 0.17 is still an experimental build, which means it is still in flux, comparing it at this point to a stable build isn't really fair.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Deadlock989 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:55 pm

Astrella wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:39 pm
And honestly, all this talk about dumbing down just makes you all come over as elitists.
It's elitist now, to want the game that I used to find interesting to stay interesting?

Then hell yes, I'm an elitist.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Astrella » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:15 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:55 pm
Astrella wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:39 pm
And honestly, all this talk about dumbing down just makes you all come over as elitists.
It's elitist now, to want the game that I used to find interesting to stay interesting?

Then hell yes, I'm an elitist.
That's not what I said, accessibility and depth are not opposites.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Deadlock989 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:48 pm

Astrella wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:15 pm
That's not what I said
Astrella wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:39 pm
And honestly, all this talk about dumbing down just makes you all come over as elitists.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Aflixion » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:32 pm

Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:30 pm
The devs have made their game betterchanged their game, and if you're not ok with that, you can mod it to your hearts content.
Fixed that for you. MANY of us disagree that the changes are for the better, and we're being told to sit down, be quiet, and undo bad design decisions with mods because the devs don't want to listen to us or take our feedback seriously. We still have yet to get an explanation of why the "problems" with the old oil processing recipes deserved a recipe change rather than the tools to learn how to deal with them (tutorial, better visual indicators, etc). And still almost a week later nobody has addressed Antaios's post about the actual brick wall of blue science, a post in which he specifically proved the devs' ideas about the difficulty of oil wrong: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=73684&p=445760#p445760

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Aflixion » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:37 pm

Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:10 pm
Aflixion wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:47 am
But at the same time, you can understand why we're upset that part of the challenge that drew us to the game was removed because it was determined to be too hard for people to figure out. We can be upset and not despise and look down on people who haven't overcome the challenge. I personally would get excited for people to encounter the challenge of oil processing to see how they'd solve it or how long they'd take to figure it out, but now a good chunk of that challenge is gone or severely minimized.
As an irrational human, I understand people can be upset to have been compelled to get through something difficult, before a change makes things easier for the others. Why should it be easier for the others to learn while it was such a pain in my ass when I had to learn ?
But on second thought, I'd rather fight my own irrationality, and prefer the "I'd rather see the difficulty curve as smooth and regular as possible, so that I drop as few people as I can".
This isn't about making the challenge of oil easier, it's about removing the challenge completely. It's fundamentally changing the design of the game on a whim. Part of the challenge of oil was balancing the 3 fluid outputs when you didn't have proper ratios to match your consumption, holding out until you could research AOP. Now you literally don't need to worry about that anymore because the only time you have 3 fluid outputs IS when you get AOP. One of my multiplayer playthroughs, my partner commented that we were getting low on PG and that we needed to research AOP soon to boost that production, something that won't happen anymore because the only thing you get from BOP now is PG.

That's not to mention that oil wasn't the real difficulty spike at blue science. Refer to the post that I keep linking that somehow gets ignored by the devs every time.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Astrella » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:18 pm

Researching AOP would still boost your Petroleum production.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Theikkru » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 pm

Astrella wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:18 pm
Researching AOP would still boost your Petroleum production.
This is completely missing the point, which is that now there's no pressure to. You could sit around doing absolutely nothing for 20 minutes waiting for your production to back up and that would solve the petroleum shortage just as well.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by jodokus31 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:57 pm

Theikkru wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 pm
Astrella wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:18 pm
Researching AOP would still boost your Petroleum production.
This is completely missing the point, which is that now there's no pressure to. You could sit around doing absolutely nothing for 20 minutes waiting for your production to back up and that would solve the petroleum shortage just as well.
It probably means, that people might start to change map settings to ridiculous amounts of oil and/or claim a buff for BOP.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Theikkru » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:02 pm

jodokus31 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:57 pm
It probably means, that people might start to change map settings to ridiculous amounts of oil and/or claim a buff for BOP.
I have no way of measuring the former, but the latter has already occurred.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by mmmPI » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:18 pm

Theikkru wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:40 pm
You could sit around doing absolutely nothing for 20 minutes waiting for your production to back up and that would solve the petroleum shortage just as well.
I used to transform my Heavy Oil and Light Oil into solid fuel. This means when i had not enough petroleum, instead of rushing AOP, i could just sit around doing absolutely nothing for 20 min,( or just build some rail ) and this solved my problems.

Now i can't run out of petroleum, I run out of crude if i don't get to AOP fast enough and use too much solid fuel when sitting around doing nothing. ( or adding rail for the ressources needed for blue science)

So i can understand why people would ask for a buff in oil on the map. The other solution would be them getting faster to AOP. ( which ofc you can't advise to a new player that's the whole point).

On the plus side though, the "wall" is removed, it is just very slow if you deplete your pumpjacks to get the science flowing after you wasted too much ressources. The same is a negative for other people as it removes the whole challenge.

But AOP, IMO is still needed as a priority, very desirable, else you waste coal or crude doing crude=>PG=>solid fuel. This might not be an intended task imposed on new player though, forcing them to tech up fast enough in a way.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Koub » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:26 pm

Aflixion wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:32 pm
Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:30 pm
The devs have made their game betterchanged their game, and if you're not ok with that, you can mod it to your hearts content.
Fixed that for you. MANY of us disagree that the changes are for the better, and we're being told to sit down, be quiet, and undo bad design decisions with mods because the devs don't want to listen to us or take our feedback seriously.
Sure, it's because those who are opposed to the change are VERY vocal, whereas those who appreciate it just post once to say they like the change. I've seen quite a number of people thanking the devs for the change because it made them the game more enjoyable.
I think the change is welcome, not because I can't get past that former wall, where you had to do oil+blue science + build your robot network all while improving your first rudimentary defenses at the same time, but because I passed it, and I'm convinced it's good for the game overall to spread the things to do on a longer diration. The part that I enjoy most is the recipe dependant fluidbox, because I was fed up having to go and see the wiki every time I had to setup my oil (Never could remember what side's water input on AOP).
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Deadlock989 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:41 pm

Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:26 pm
Sure, it's because those who are opposed to the change are VERY vocal, whereas those who appreciate it just post once to say they like the change.
So, we should just shut up and go away?

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Light » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:42 pm

Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:30 am
But as always, as much as I love the fact there are mods, I wish the vanilla experience not to need mods to be optimal.
Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:30 pm
The devs have made their game better, and if you're not ok with that, you can mod it to your hearts content.
While I'm not interested in debating the subject further, could you be a little more consistent with your replies? The flip-flopping from reasonable thought to ass kissing is annoying to read.

You now require mods to restore content that was lost for poorly conceived reasons. That's not optimal. You say we shouldn't have to mod the game to be optimal, yet you also say we should just mod the game then shut up and deal with it since it makes a few others happy.

Pick one :roll:

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Theikkru » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:45 pm

Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:26 pm
Sure, it's because those who are opposed to the change are VERY vocal, whereas those who appreciate it just post once to say they like the change. I've seen quite a number of people thanking the devs for the change because it made them the game more enjoyable.
And something I've noticed about those posts is that half the time they include some sort of "and by the way, could you also buff X?" or "Y could also use some simplification". This is exactly the type of thing people have warning about when they talk about trying to appeal to the masses for whom Factorio is, conceptually, too complex to be appealing.
Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:26 pm
I think the change is welcome, not because I can't get past that former wall, where you had to do oil+blue science + build your robot network all while improving your first rudimentary defenses at the same time, but because I passed it, and I'm convinced it's good for the game overall to spread the things to do on a longer diration.
There are two arguments against this. First, that the changes as implemented don't actually spread the difficulty out, because ① it just kicks the can down the road, ② it causes problems as a consequence of being delayed , and ③ the spot it got moved to is now at least as bad as the spot it was in before. Second, is that delaying teaching a concept is a bad idea in general. (Please don't make me go dig up examples for these arguments.)
Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:26 pm
The part that I enjoy most is the recipe dependant fluidbox, because I was fed up having to go and see the wiki every time I had to setup my oil (Never could remember what side's water input on AOP).
I don't recall anyone questioning this part of the changes.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by mmmPI » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:47 pm

Light wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:42 pm
Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:30 am
But as always, as much as I love the fact there are mods, I wish the vanilla experience not to need mods to be optimal.
Koub wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:30 pm
The devs have made their game better, and if you're not ok with that, you can mod it to your hearts content.
While I'm not interested in debating the subject further, could you be a little more consistent with your replies? The flip-flopping from reasonable thought to ass kissing is annoying to read.

You now require mods to restore content that was lost for poorly conceived reasons. That's not optimal. You say we shouldn't have to mod the game to be optimal, yet you also say we should just mod the game then shut up and deal with it since it makes a few others happy.

Pick one :roll:
That's unfair sorry, one is concerning the ground conbots, that are not in vanilla , and there are discussion about how can the new player be introduced to the CTRL C CTRL V faster, the other one is about the oil change, that is made with the intend for smoother difficulty, and that Koub thinks is better now ( which is debatable ! )

But, about the debate thing, i found about this particular law : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality That answered a lot of my questions about what's going on in here.
EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre%27s_law Also this one, not implying the topic is insignificant and i prefer things done well, i was questionning myself on a seemingly disproportion.
Last edited by mmmPI on Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Klonan » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:59 pm

Theikkru wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:45 pm
it just kicks the can down the road
That was the intent

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Theikkru » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:02 pm

Klonan wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:59 pm
That was the intent
Right, but combined with the other 2 aspects that becomes a problem.

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