Version 0.17.60

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by nafira » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:43 pm

Sure it's annoying (I'm still trying to copy paste in vain ^^ ) for logistics, but battery is not that far from blue science and doesn't cost much.
What cost a lot is rushing into blue + purple and producing processors at the same time.

You need a dedicated part to produce enough green circuits. (And you don't have blue belts, because you need logibots first)

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by ssilk » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 pm

xnmo wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:21 pm
ssilk wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:06 pm
Arguments agains change will never change.
But the gameplay effects involved here is the real issue; and there are certainly issues here! The one true "improvement" NewBOP gives is that it indeed smooths out the Green-->Blue science transition hump. But in doing so it cheapens the game experience and locks access to a core characteristic feature of the game behind another wall - among various other objections that have been raised to the change. Setting up a handful of pipes and storage tanks is not the issue, and while removing that requirement obviously lets you get to other things quicker, as many have pointed out over and over and over, this is not the only solution that exists which could smooth-out/improve the early-mid game experience.
Well, I really haven't had enough time to follow the discussion, but after playing now a while with it I can say this: It's just a logical change and it needs a bit more love, a finetuning of the balancing. I think much of the discussion is because this change is not good balanced yet.

But I remember back when I played Factorio 0.9 the first time: I was overwhelmed with the the complexity and it tooks some time to understand, that I need to use all the oil from refinery. So I keep saying: From a beginner view this change makes a lot sense and from advanced player this is also a useful change, cause I can produce lots of light oil only now. The rest of this is change is in my eyes just a yet not so well balanced change of recipes.

From now a year nobody will mention this change anymore.
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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Antaios » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:24 pm

ssilk wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 pm
xnmo wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:21 pm
ssilk wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:06 pm
Arguments agains change will never change.
But the gameplay effects involved here is the real issue; and there are certainly issues here! The one true "improvement" NewBOP gives is that it indeed smooths out the Green-->Blue science transition hump. But in doing so it cheapens the game experience and locks access to a core characteristic feature of the game behind another wall - among various other objections that have been raised to the change. Setting up a handful of pipes and storage tanks is not the issue, and while removing that requirement obviously lets you get to other things quicker, as many have pointed out over and over and over, this is not the only solution that exists which could smooth-out/improve the early-mid game experience.
Well, I really haven't had enough time to follow the discussion, but after playing now a while with it I can say this: It's just a logical change and it needs a bit more love, a finetuning of the balancing. I think much of the discussion is because this change is not good balanced yet.

But I remember back when I played Factorio 0.9 the first time: I was overwhelmed with the the complexity and it tooks some time to understand, that I need to use all the oil from refinery. So I keep saying: From a beginner view this change makes a lot sense and from advanced player this is also a useful change, cause I can produce lots of light oil only now. The rest of this is change is in my eyes just a yet not so well balanced change of recipes.

From now a year nobody will mention this change anymore.
Don't take silence on boards like this as a lack of caring, or no longer being disgruntled about a subject. The permanence of discussions the forum format provides tends to end all discussions up to a point, as they circle less so than normal discussions in life.

And in the end, we have no choice, the discussion will end either because those who hate the change leave, or simply cannot effect change as they are not the devs. Silence is not acceptance.

I would suggest you re read some of the informed and rational reasoning behind the pushback against this change before you go claiming it makes sense or is a logical change.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Aflixion » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:21 am

Antaios wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:24 pm
ssilk wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 pm
xnmo wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:21 pm
ssilk wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:06 pm
Arguments agains change will never change.
But the gameplay effects involved here is the real issue; and there are certainly issues here! The one true "improvement" NewBOP gives is that it indeed smooths out the Green-->Blue science transition hump. But in doing so it cheapens the game experience and locks access to a core characteristic feature of the game behind another wall - among various other objections that have been raised to the change. Setting up a handful of pipes and storage tanks is not the issue, and while removing that requirement obviously lets you get to other things quicker, as many have pointed out over and over and over, this is not the only solution that exists which could smooth-out/improve the early-mid game experience.
Well, I really haven't had enough time to follow the discussion, but after playing now a while with it I can say this: It's just a logical change and it needs a bit more love, a finetuning of the balancing. I think much of the discussion is because this change is not good balanced yet.

But I remember back when I played Factorio 0.9 the first time: I was overwhelmed with the the complexity and it tooks some time to understand, that I need to use all the oil from refinery. So I keep saying: From a beginner view this change makes a lot sense and from advanced player this is also a useful change, cause I can produce lots of light oil only now. The rest of this is change is in my eyes just a yet not so well balanced change of recipes.

From now a year nobody will mention this change anymore.
Don't take silence on boards like this as a lack of caring, or no longer being disgruntled about a subject. The permanence of discussions the forum format provides tends to end all discussions up to a point, as they circle less so than normal discussions in life.

And in the end, we have no choice, the discussion will end either because those who hate the change leave, or simply cannot effect change as they are not the devs. Silence is not acceptance.

I would suggest you re read some of the informed and rational reasoning behind the pushback against this change before you go claiming it makes sense or is a logical change.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. My silence here is not indicative of my acceptance of the changes, but rather my realization that the devs aren't going to reconsider them so I've uninstalled the game and moved on.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by 5thHorseman » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:53 am

Antaios wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:25 am
Using a mod which changes the design restrictions on such a broad level can't exactly provide feedback indicative of how the oil changes affect the base game.
Surely it's a better indication than the comparisons to Oxygen Not Included.
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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Deadlock989 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:24 am

ssilk wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 pm
From now a year nobody will mention this change anymore.
I was literally instructed not to post about it any more.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by jodokus31 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:00 am

ssilk wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 pm

Well, I really haven't had enough time to follow the discussion, but after playing now a while with it I can say this: It's just a logical change and it needs a bit more love, a finetuning of the balancing. I think much of the discussion is because this change is not good balanced yet.
I cannot deny a certain logic in the changes. But I think, a lot of the discussion exist, because oil as multiple output recipe was and is (still with AOP) IMHO a good design and a nice challenge, which many like. The fact, that BOP is changed from a complex multi output recipe to a simple 1in 1out recipe is just ...
Delaying this challenge to later might be an option to smooth out the experience for new players, but I really can't say, if it really works out. Time will tell...

I played a bit with Default Marathon settings and bots are really far away now (because of 4x research cost). The oil change itself was not so drastic, because I produced enough to rush AOP soon. Blue science has to be built, which went kind of fast. But biters get nasty and I dont want to spend time on manually building walls or trains. I already had to connect a second iron patch. It's definitly a game changer, whether its good or not, i don't know yet.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by meganothing » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:35 pm

Antaios wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:24 pm
And in the end, we have no choice, the discussion will end either because those who hate the change leave, or simply cannot effect change as they are not the devs. Silence is not acceptance.

I would suggest you re read some of the informed and rational reasoning behind the pushback against this change before you go claiming it makes sense or is a logical change.
Well, if it were a political discussion about guns or immigration I'm sure there would be people left on both sides of the discussion that are still absolutely convinced the other side is wrong, it can't be avoided. And both sides would give reasons why their view is informed and rational.

Your initial post for example that was rightfully praised by many people is a very good theory. But it still is only a theory, making assumptions about what new players would have difficulty with. Your reasoning is good but still based on assumptions that are unproven.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Light » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:43 pm

ssilk wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 pm
From now a year nobody will mention this change anymore.
You can only pound sand for so long. That was obvious within the first week and blatantly obvious as the days went further by.

I feel sorry for those who wasted their time talking to dead air. I'm sure many hours were wasted on doing research and writing, all for naught.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Koub » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:00 pm

Light wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:43 pm
ssilk wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 pm
From now a year nobody will mention this change anymore.
You can only pound sand for so long. That was obvious within the first week and blatantly obvious as the days went further by.

I feel sorry for those who wasted their time talking to dead air. I'm sure many hours were wasted on doing research and writing, all for naught.
Yeah and when the devs contributed and tried to convince people their choice was good and had been done after weighting pros and cons with at least most the contributions, who listened to them amongst those who were standing against the change ? Seems that the devs also wasted precious time, all for naught.
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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Aflixion » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:52 pm

Koub wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:00 pm
Light wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:43 pm
ssilk wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 pm
From now a year nobody will mention this change anymore.
You can only pound sand for so long. That was obvious within the first week and blatantly obvious as the days went further by.

I feel sorry for those who wasted their time talking to dead air. I'm sure many hours were wasted on doing research and writing, all for naught.
Yeah and when the devs contributed and tried to convince people their choice was good and had been done after weighting pros and cons with at least most the contributions, who listened to them amongst those who were standing against the change ? Seems that the devs also wasted precious time, all for naught.
Usually, when you try to explain your reasoning for a change and the playerbase doesn't accept that reasoning, it means the reasoning was flawed and you should reconsider whether you're making the right change.

A lot of us understood the reasoning behind the changes, we just disagreed that the changes were necessary. We disagreed about the need for a change in the first place, not the logic behind the tweaks being made.

Thanks for confirming for us that we wasted our time, though. A moderator's response to players saying they felt like they wasted their time really shouldn't be "well have you considered that the devs might have wasted their time too?" That just tells us we had no chance of ever swaying Wube's opinion on these changes. I no longer feel bad for uninstalling the game.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Bilka » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:18 pm

A third parties view makes you assume the intentions of another party and you fully commit to that assumption? That seems like a bad way to form an opinion.
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Klonan » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:53 pm

Aflixion wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:52 pm
We disagreed about the need for a change in the first place, not the logic behind the tweaks being made.
Ok, and how are we supposed to handle this situation?

We think a change is nescessary, you don't. Who should make the decision?

We like a change, you don't like a change.
Is uninstalling the game and complaning on the forum an appropriate reaction?

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by el_penny » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:10 pm

Klonan wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:53 pm
Aflixion wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:52 pm
We disagreed about the need for a change in the first place, not the logic behind the tweaks being made.
We think a change is nescessary, you don't. Who should make the decision?

We like a change, you don't like a change.
DISCLAIMER: I'm only hobbyist game dev, I do work in IT but not in entertainment.
Recently I met with my friends from game dev and talked to them about whole oil situation. Well, all of them were really suprised that at Wube someone tries to listen to players at all, given the harsh language that has been thrown at them. And not for selfish reasons, they rather unanimously said to me that well... Factorio is game made by some people and as such it should firstly resemble artistic vision of its creators.

Just like you know, every artists in the world.
Of course game needs to sell, just like art. But it is sole aim of being creator to take risk and responsibility. That's why Ubi or EA or AB forcing decisions on dev teams is uncool. Surrendering to outcry of angry gamers is for me just as bad.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Unclebod » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:24 pm

Klonan wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:53 pm
Aflixion wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:52 pm
We disagreed about the need for a change in the first place, not the logic behind the tweaks being made.
Ok, and how are we supposed to handle this situation?

We think a change is nescessary, you don't. Who should make the decision?

We like a change, you don't like a change.
Is uninstalling the game and complaning on the forum an appropriate reaction?
I am sure that a less civilized dev team would have solved it by banning people from the forum...
I can't say I did see the use of the change either, but I see it from the viewpoint from having put together the oil industry several times, not as someone bumping my head into it for the first time. That first time was simply to far back in time for me to remember my feelings then.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Theikkru » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:48 pm

Just want to pop back in to say that I've not given up on the middle ground, and hawk my proposal (again); I still think the oil changes could be improved on incrementally, and I've tried to account for all the dev points I saw in discussion. I've also hacked up a mod out of it for demonstration and testing purposes.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by netmand » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:51 pm

Aflixion wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:52 pm
Usually, when you try to explain your reasoning for a change and the playerbase doesn't I don't accept that reasoning, it means to me the reasoning was flawed and you should reconsider whether you're making the right change.

A lot of us I Think I understood the reasoning behind the changes, we I just disagreed that the changes were necessary. We I disagreed about the need for a change in the first place, not the logic behind the tweaks being made.

Thanks for confirming for us me that we wasted our time, though. A moderator's response to players saying they felt like they wasted their time really shouldn't be "well have you considered that the devs might have wasted their time too?" That just tells us we I feel that I had no chance of ever swaying Wube's opinion on these changes. I no longer feel bad for uninstalling the game.
fixed. please refrain from implying/increasing your representation where it doesn't exist. It's infringing on my opinions in these matters.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by MasterBuilder » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:01 pm

I vaguely remember how I felt when first hitting oil all those many years ago. (IIRC I started around 0.7 or 0.8)
I don't remember what I felt, but I do remember my solution:

Storage tanks.

I'd just put down a bunch or so leading out from the outputs I wasn't using and when they got full I removed & replaced the tanks.
Sure, I "lost" a lot of wasted oil, but it worked for me as it put off the puzzle in solving it. (And this was long before combinators too.)

Looking back on my new player self, I would have much rather had the oil change we have now, back then. It would have made things so much easier to only have petrol.

I support the oil change. I like it. I think it makes a better experience for new players.
Now, as an experienced player, I don't care what BoP looks like as It's just a stepping stone to get past. (I also tend to just design mega-bases in creative anyways, so I don't bump into it much.)

On a side note, I notice Factorio tends to attract people whom are OCD / Neurotic / Autistic. I count myself as one of them. Those people have the hardest time accepting change in things. (Again, also me.)
I still refuse to use Win10 for some of those reasons. I want nothing to do with some of it's "changes".
But, sometimes, those changes need to happen whether I (or others) like them or not. The resultant product is better for it, at least for the majority of its users. Same with Factorio.
(Remeber, the above is an opinion. I'm not trying to start some flame war. Don't hate me for it.)

I think the devs here have been amazingly open about the process and their decision and all the hate that I've seen over the past few weeks over this disheartens me.

I'm not really sure how to end this. I'd like to encourage the community to just move on but I know how hard that can be so I'll just go with this quote:

"You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time". -- John Lydgate
Give a man fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by MimoDX2 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:23 pm

I'm a lurker and have been keeping a close eye to the oil situation, and thought i would throw my cents on the matter as well.

I'm fine with the changes, and i see where the developers are coming from with them. Ultimately, it's up to the developers to decide what is best for this game, and that's fine by me. I have no problems with the idea of only having to deal with petroleum gas at first, if that makes the game more welcoming to newbies, and lets people go through the oil wall without quitting, then it's a good change imo.

However, there's no denying that the delaying of construction robots has turned some people off. At first, seeing the news that blue science would be required to unlock robots didn't really bother me, i only really used Logistic robots after getting the Advanced Logistics System (locked by yellow science), and only rarely used construction robots to do a few things, but i was at a phase of figuring things out, so there really was no reason for me to use robots to build things that my brain barely processed yet. But now that i created a new Railworld map (before the changes), got some personal roboports, and decided to dive in more deeply into the blueprint system, i began to understand why the delay bothered people. It's great seeing your robots build things for you, so great in fact that it's basically a playstyle for many players, evidenced by the community reaction to Bots vs Belts. Restarting a map and doing everything over again was already an annoyance to these players, and now that robots are locked in even further, it becomes even more of a drag to build everything over again.

I could see myself eventually missing robots when starting a new map, and while i'm not suggesting that the current changes should be reverted, i do not think these changes should determine wether or not construction robots should be delayed. The old basic oil processing allowed for either getting robots or blue potions first, which implies to me that these things should be separate from each other, as was the case before the update. Right now, the con-bots delay is merely a side-effect of an otherwise alright change, and it would be preferable for that not be the case, in my opinion.

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Re: Version 0.17.60

Post by Aflixion » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:38 pm

Klonan wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:53 pm
Aflixion wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:52 pm
We disagreed about the need for a change in the first place, not the logic behind the tweaks being made.
Ok, and how are we supposed to handle this situation?

We think a change is nescessary, you don't. Who should make the decision?

We like a change, you don't like a change.
Is uninstalling the game and complaning on the forum an appropriate reaction?
With how you guys handled these changes, yes that's an appropriate reaction. You fundamentally changed the design goals of the game by removing a puzzle, which made me (and several other people) strongly dislike the direction the game is going. We tried pointing this out to you with reasoned arguments, and you pushed through the changes anyway without even paying lip service to the idea that no change is needed or that a change in a different area of the game might better solve whatever problem you perceived. What other option did I have?

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