Factorio Forums

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm

My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)

And they didn't seem to factor in that heavy oil has a valid and important use (lubricant) especially for large quantities of blue belts etc and the only viable source remaining was coal liquifaction.

Not to mention the change of flamethrower fuel from light+heavy oil to petro gas.. completely nonsensical.

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm

My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)

Valid argument, but I don't think it is correct about the outcome, no. Advanced Oil Processing still has the same outputs, so the only possible factories that will break are the ones that only have basic oil before the change, and can't quickly research advanced oil. Once they have advanced they need to run one more fluid to the refinery, but ... before the change there was *no* reason to ever stick with basic oil if you had advanced oil.

So, I'm pretty sure the breakage will be pretty limited, overall, and many people will simply not even notice until they start a new game.

Ambaire wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:09 pm

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:03 pm

So, before I allow Steam to update I would like to have this clear.
The oil change is NOT in this version, right?

I'm hoping it was just a thought experiment to see how players reacted and nothing that was ever seriously being considered.

That didn't stop them before, nor is it the proper way to garner trust and support from the community by intentionally ruffling their feathers for "thought experimentation".

It was simply a bad call and people called them out on it since this community is passionate about this game they sunk thousands of hours into. Wube should be fortunate people care enough to speak their mind even when it goes against the grain, and we the community should be fortunate they're willing to rethink their decisions instead of forcing them anyway. That's a collaborative effort that's rare to find and should be treasured.

I am thankful the devs are reconsidering the changes they had planned in the FFF and have not implemented them as of yet.

17.59 is with out the changes to the science for robots and oil changes. hurray!

if you couldn't tell i was against these changes.
however, i still would like to see the change to the input for basic oil, only having crude input on the one side making the transition to advanced smoother.

thanks again

Anyone else having issues deleting a saved game? Pressing delete just does nothing all of a sudden.

bcronje wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:50 pm

Anyone else having issues deleting a saved game? Pressing delete just does nothing all of a sudden.

Oh yeah, I see the same - and not just Delete. It appears that all keyboard input is broken on the Load UI, after a save game is selected with the mouse.

Specifically:

1. Open the Load UI and, without using the mouse, try up/down arrow keys to scroll, and Delete to delete a save: it works
2. Now use the mouse to click on a save
3. Now repeat 1: keyboard no longer works
4. This persists until the Load UI is closed and re-opened.

I used the arrow keys a few times in recent previous releases, so I guess that yes this broke in 0.17.59, although I couldn't be 100% certain.

Do you want to raise it as a bug? Or if not I will do tomorrow morning, as I'm going to bed in a second.

Light wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:25 pm

That didn't stop them before, nor is it the proper way to garner trust and support from the community by intentionally ruffling their feathers for "thought experimentation".

It was simply a bad call and people called them out on it since this community is passionate about this game they sunk thousands of hours into. Wube should be fortunate people care enough to speak their mind even when it goes against the grain, and we the community should be fortunate they're willing to rethink their decisions instead of forcing them anyway. That's a collaborative effort that's rare to find and should be treasured.

I think they weren't completely sure that's the change they wanted to make. But, they wanted to make it easier for new players who were getting stuck on the blocked output problem. So, they floated the best idea they had for solving the problem and waited to see how people felt about it. They knew it would be controversial, and were sort of hoping other interesting ideas would pop up in the discussion.

So, I think a change is still coming, but perhaps not the one they were originally planning.

A bug fix with the D button. In a single moment it all makes sense.

Philip017 wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:17 pm

I am thankful the devs are reconsidering the changes they had planned in the FFF and have not implemented them as of yet.

Not to be a downer but not implementing the changes does not mean they are reconsidering them. They could simply not be ready yet.

I also have gotten a very noticeable UPS/FPS drop since updating. Mine is staying pretty consistent right around 19-21 UPS, doesn't seem to be tied to any of the graphical settings either.

I'm not able to connect our usual multiplayer public game. Getting the following error:

Couldn't establish a network connection to the game.

And during the game selection dialogue, I keep getting this error but it eventually lists all the multiplayer games.

Download failed (status code 520): failed to parse JSON response. Unexpected character (S) at ?:1

Anyone else?

slippycheeze wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:07 pm

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm

My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)

Valid argument, but I don't think it is correct about the outcome, no. Advanced Oil Processing still has the same outputs, so the only possible factories that will break are the ones that only have basic oil before the change, and can't quickly research advanced oil. Once they have advanced they need to run one more fluid to the refinery, but ... before the change there was *no* reason to ever stick with basic oil if you had advanced oil.

So, I'm pretty sure the breakage will be pretty limited, overall, and many people will simply not even notice until they start a new game.

Aha, ok. That at least wouldn't break everything then. Still not fun, but not as bad as I thought it would be.

I don't know whether the planned Oil changes are good or bad, but I know as a novice I found the whole liquid processing very painful to deal with - one or other of the liquids would fill up, stopping production of whatever I was actually using. Then I'd end up just putting in more tanks to needlessly store the ones I wasn't using. And I understand that is part of the game, and not necessarily a bad thing, but I can understand the developers concerns about how it is handled for a novice player coming in early in the game.

peternlewis wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:17 am

I don't know whether the planned Oil changes are good or bad, but I know as a novice I found the whole liquid processing very painful to deal with - one or other of the liquids would fill up, stopping production of whatever I was actually using. Then I'd end up just putting in more tanks to needlessly store the ones I wasn't using. And I understand that is part of the game, and not necessarily a bad thing, but I can understand the developers concerns about how it is handled for a novice player coming in early in the game.

The hack of putting a bunch of tanks at the outputs and then when they are full simply picking them up again just to immediately replace them with empty tanks is HORRIBLE.
I have done exactly the same thing, and I bet a LOT of players do the same thing. It's clearly indicative of not explaining the game properly.

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:38 am

The hack of putting a bunch of tanks at the outputs and then when they are full simply picking them up again just to immediately replace them with empty tanks is HORRIBLE.
I have done exactly the same thing, and I bet a LOT of players do the same thing. It's clearly indicative of not explaining the game properly.

Exactly - I have't actually done that, I always sort of felt it was cheating. If there is no way to “flush” the take and throw out the contents, then picking it up and putting it back just seemed wrong. But spamming the world with tanks is not a whole lot better.

And yes, I agree, it is either a lapse in the game play or the explanation. I think once I figured out I could turn the liquids in to fuel blocks and feed them in to steam engines I could largely resolve it, so maybe that is all that needs to be explained. But certainly something in the system or the explanations needs to improve, and I would guess that is what the developers are responding to.

peternlewis wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:04 am

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:38 am

The hack of putting a bunch of tanks at the outputs and then when they are full simply picking them up again just to immediately replace them with empty tanks is HORRIBLE.
I have done exactly the same thing, and I bet a LOT of players do the same thing. It's clearly indicative of not explaining the game properly.

Exactly - I have't actually done that, I always sort of felt it was cheating. If there is no way to “flush” the take and throw out the contents, then picking it up and putting it back just seemed wrong. But spamming the world with tanks is not a whole lot better.

And yes, I agree, it is either a lapse in the game play or the explanation. I think once I figured out I could turn the liquids in to fuel blocks and feed them in to steam engines I could largely resolve it, so maybe that is all that needs to be explained. But certainly something in the system or the explanations needs to improve, and I would guess that is what the developers are responding to.

While lots of the changes proposed by the community are about receipes, there are also some who pointed out at some UI elements that could indicate better the problem which might helps.

On another note, maybe a tutorial could help, in order for this one to me memorable, i proposed to use the lore "Why did the ship crashed ?" => "because the output were full", hopefully that could teach any player something that they will remember=> beware the oil can back up.

viewtopic.php?f=227&t=73668

If you were to see a design that produce sulfur, solid fuel and plastic out of oil, not designed to scale, just to illustrate one example of setup that consume the ressources, but with a plot, the setup is bound to fail because of a problematic component, you'd be asked to remove/modify an existing setup in a room of the spaceship, following compilatrons order for example, that would help new player get a feeling of "deja-vu" when they start tackling oil in the freeplay.

mmmPI wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:58 am

While lots of the changes proposed by the community are about receipes, there are also some who pointed out at some UI elements that could indicate better the problem which might helps.

Yes, and I was one of them.
I HIGHLY recommend using the 'Bottleneck' mod. In fact, I think it absolutely should be in the base/vanilla game!
Information is very important, especially in a game like this.

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm

My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)

I don't know what is the current plan for those changes. But as I understand the original proposal in FFF, then if you are already using advanced processing, nothing should really change. So it would not affect late game factories, only new ones or ones in a specific narrow phase of the game.

Dominik wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:06 am

Sander_Bouwhuis wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:20 pm

My biggest problem is that they introduce it so late in the v0.17 cycle. It will destroy every factory currently in existence. Everyone's oil setup has to radically change (right, or did I misunderstand?)

I don't know what is the current plan for those changes. But as I understand the original proposal in FFF, then if you are already using advanced processing, nothing should really change. So it would not affect late game factories, only new ones or ones in a specific narrow phase of the game.

Except some people may be relying on the basic oil processing recipe for a better ratio of heavy oil without needing to do coal liquefaction.

It's amazing no one really noticed those Laser Turret bugs until now.