Version 0.17.54

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Jap2.0
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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Jap2.0 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:36 pm

eradicator wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:00 pm
boskid wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:44 pm
Twinsen wrote: When we move bug reports to "pending" so there are less bugs https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a ... svvp9.webm
Dammit. I took far too long to realize what's happening :D.

The oldest pending bug has an epic quote though:
kovarex wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:43 pm
To be honest, we didn't think of the possibility that the player could make more drills [...]
That quote's great.
There are 10 types of people: those who get this joke and those who don't.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by talchas » Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:57 pm

posila wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:27 pm
MoosePrime wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:48 pm
talchas wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:14 pm
FactorioBot wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:51 pm
[*]The Linux version of the game now depends on PulseAudio.
Welp, had a good run.
Yeah, I guess I'm stuck on 0.17.53
Have you tried 0.17.54 doesn't work for you? If so make a bug a report, please.
It's just going to say

Code: Select all

./bin/x64/factorio: error while loading shared libraries: libpulse.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
I can file that if you want but when it's clearly stating that it now deps on pulse, that seemed rude. (I suppose it still deps on asound, so maybe it's intending to choose at runtime if that isn't normal for pulse-only)

(Also I just learned about apulse, and factorio still works fine with that, so not actually the end of the world)

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Oxyd » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:40 pm

talchas wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:57 pm
posila wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:27 pm
MoosePrime wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:48 pm
talchas wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:14 pm
FactorioBot wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:51 pm
[*]The Linux version of the game now depends on PulseAudio.
Welp, had a good run.
Yeah, I guess I'm stuck on 0.17.53
Have you tried 0.17.54 doesn't work for you? If so make a bug a report, please.
It's just going to say

Code: Select all

./bin/x64/factorio: error while loading shared libraries: libpulse.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
I can file that if you want but when it's clearly stating that it now deps on pulse, that seemed rude. (I suppose it still deps on asound, so maybe it's intending to choose at runtime if that isn't normal for pulse-only)

(Also I just learned about apulse, and factorio still works fine with that, so not actually the end of the world)
Yeah, that would be not a bug. And yes, actually using Pulse is not mandatory, you still have the option of using ALSA or OSS, but you need the libpulse.so library.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by MoosePrime » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:57 pm

talchas wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:57 pm
posila wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:27 pm
MoosePrime wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:48 pm
talchas wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:14 pm
FactorioBot wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:51 pm
[*]The Linux version of the game now depends on PulseAudio.
Welp, had a good run.
Yeah, I guess I'm stuck on 0.17.53
Have you tried 0.17.54 doesn't work for you? If so make a bug a report, please.
It's just going to say

Code: Select all

./bin/x64/factorio: error while loading shared libraries: libpulse.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
I can file that if you want but when it's clearly stating that it now deps on pulse, that seemed rude. (I suppose it still deps on asound, so maybe it's intending to choose at runtime if that isn't normal for pulse-only)

(Also I just learned about apulse, and factorio still works fine with that, so not actually the end of the world)
Thanks for the tip about apulse, that allows it to run for me.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by starxplor » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:23 am

Oxyd wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:40 pm

Yeah, that would be not a bug. And yes, actually using Pulse is not mandatory, you still have the option of using ALSA or OSS, but you need the libpulse.so library.
The above error is what happens when pulse is not installed. As pulse is listed as a dependency, this is an expected error. This is also saying that players without pulse are purposely not going to be able to play the game.

You are making a distinction between 'use' and 'installed'. This change now requires pulse be installed. There are many who do not have it installed, and so will not be able to use updated versions of this game.

I would suggest instead of requiring pulse to run the program, making the game disable all sound when pulse is not found. This would allow people to continue playing without having to change their system's setup.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by jockeril » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:00 am

starxplor wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:23 am
Oxyd wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:40 pm

Yeah, that would be not a bug. And yes, actually using Pulse is not mandatory, you still have the option of using ALSA or OSS, but you need the libpulse.so library.
The above error is what happens when pulse is not installed. As pulse is listed as a dependency, this is an expected error. This is also saying that players without pulse are purposely not going to be able to play the game.

...

I would suggest instead of requiring pulse to run the program, making the game disable all sound when pulse is not found. This would allow people to continue playing without having to change their system's setup.
I think the sounds in the game and especially the music is important to the vibe and you're suggestion will lead to complaints and dissatisfaction. A better way to go, when detecting it is not installed is, to either display a message explaining Pulse is needed and giving a link to download it from a safe source or adding it to the install (if it's license allows it) and explaining how to install it,
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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Oxyd » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:30 am

starxplor wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:23 am
Oxyd wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:40 pm

Yeah, that would be not a bug. And yes, actually using Pulse is not mandatory, you still have the option of using ALSA or OSS, but you need the libpulse.so library.
There are many who do not have it installed, and so will not be able to use updated versions of this game.
I disagree. Pulse is the default audio system on pretty much every modern distro.

I know that there are some people who purposely try to avoid PulseAudio, but honestly, from the reaction I've seen to this release so far, I'm actually kind of surprised at how little negativity there is.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Hawk777 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:25 pm

I registered on the forums just to add my voice here: I’m disappointed that you chose to use PulseAudio by default instead of ALSA; it seems that using the latter would have made everyone happy, since as far as I know, PulseAudio intercepts applications using ALSA and routes them just fine, but it would also work for people not using PA. I’m happy that you don’t actually require PulseAudio to be used but rather sound seems to keep working as long as libpulse.so is installed, at least as of 0.17.54 (it seems to be shipped as part of the Steam runtime, so while it doesn’t work, it does exist). I’m also worried that this is the start of a slippery slope towards eventually requiring PA, which I hope isn’t your plan, but of course I have no way of knowing that.

I still love Factorio. I just hope I don’t eventually end up in a situation where I have to choose between mucking about with PA to get it working (which I don’t want to do), or only playing Factorio in Windows (which I also don’t want to do).

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by slippycheeze » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:08 pm

Hawk777 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:25 pm
I registered on the forums just to add my voice here: I’m disappointed that you chose to use PulseAudio by default instead of ALSA; it seems that using the latter would have made everyone happy, since as far as I know, PulseAudio intercepts applications using ALSA and routes them just fine, but it would also work for people not using PA. I’m happy that you don’t actually require PulseAudio to be used but rather sound seems to keep working as long as libpulse.so is installed, at least as of 0.17.54 (it seems to be shipped as part of the Steam runtime, so while it doesn’t work, it does exist). I’m also worried that this is the start of a slippery slope towards eventually requiring PA, which I hope isn’t your plan, but of course I have no way of knowing that.

I still love Factorio. I just hope I don’t eventually end up in a situation where I have to choose between mucking about with PA to get it working (which I don’t want to do), or only playing Factorio in Windows (which I also don’t want to do).
As the developers already said, you could choose door number three: tell the game to use ALSA output, and ignore the fact it loads the PA client but doesn't use it....

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Hawk777 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:16 pm

slippycheeze wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:08 pm
As the developers already said, you could choose door number three: tell the game to use ALSA output, and ignore the fact it loads the PA client but doesn't use it....
Yes, that’s what I do when running through Steam, because the Steam runtime includes libpulse.so. If I use the direct download, however, I would need libpulse.so installed on my box, and it would be nice if I didn’t even have to install PulseAudio just to not use it. I also pointed out that I am worried, possibly with or possibly without reason, that the decision to require the presence of PulseAudio today may foreshadow requiring the use of PulseAudio tomorrow, or next week, or next year.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by talchas » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:27 pm

slippycheeze wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:08 pm
Hawk777 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:25 pm
I registered on the forums just to add my voice here: I’m disappointed that you chose to use PulseAudio by default instead of ALSA; it seems that using the latter would have made everyone happy, since as far as I know, PulseAudio intercepts applications using ALSA and routes them just fine, but it would also work for people not using PA. I’m happy that you don’t actually require PulseAudio to be used but rather sound seems to keep working as long as libpulse.so is installed, at least as of 0.17.54 (it seems to be shipped as part of the Steam runtime, so while it doesn’t work, it does exist). I’m also worried that this is the start of a slippery slope towards eventually requiring PA, which I hope isn’t your plan, but of course I have no way of knowing that.

I still love Factorio. I just hope I don’t eventually end up in a situation where I have to choose between mucking about with PA to get it working (which I don’t want to do), or only playing Factorio in Windows (which I also don’t want to do).
As the developers already said, you could choose door number three: tell the game to use ALSA output, and ignore the fact it loads the PA client but doesn't use it....
This seems like it should be reasonable, but in fact is really _not_ practical at all (in terms of "globally install but don't use pulse"). The typical thing a bunch of other apps do is use pulse if it is installed, no matter what, including auto-starting the daemon, when you don't want that app to use pulse at all (and unless you change some obscure settings I haven't even checked if still work, that also locks the soundcard). The similar workaround that actually works would be to put libpulse (even the real one rather than apulse) in a directory you LD_LIBRARY_PATH in a factorio wrapper script (or if the devs wanted to and could distribute it, an rpath).

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by slippycheeze » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:45 pm

talchas wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:27 pm
slippycheeze wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:08 pm
Hawk777 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:25 pm
I registered on the forums just to add my voice here: I’m disappointed that you chose to use PulseAudio by default instead of ALSA; it seems that using the latter would have made everyone happy, since as far as I know, PulseAudio intercepts applications using ALSA and routes them just fine, but it would also work for people not using PA. I’m happy that you don’t actually require PulseAudio to be used but rather sound seems to keep working as long as libpulse.so is installed, at least as of 0.17.54 (it seems to be shipped as part of the Steam runtime, so while it doesn’t work, it does exist). I’m also worried that this is the start of a slippery slope towards eventually requiring PA, which I hope isn’t your plan, but of course I have no way of knowing that.

I still love Factorio. I just hope I don’t eventually end up in a situation where I have to choose between mucking about with PA to get it working (which I don’t want to do), or only playing Factorio in Windows (which I also don’t want to do).
As the developers already said, you could choose door number three: tell the game to use ALSA output, and ignore the fact it loads the PA client but doesn't use it....
This seems like it should be reasonable, but in fact is really _not_ practical at all (in terms of "globally install but don't use pulse"). The typical thing a bunch of other apps do is use pulse if it is installed, no matter what, including auto-starting the daemon, when you don't want that app to use pulse at all (and unless you change some obscure settings I haven't even checked if still work, that also locks the soundcard). The similar workaround that actually works would be to put libpulse (even the real one rather than apulse) in a directory you LD_LIBRARY_PATH in a factorio wrapper script (or if the devs wanted to and could distribute it, an rpath).
Of course lots of applications do that. PulseAudio won. Like systemd, it identified a real problem, and solved it in a terrible, wildly over-complicated way that led to even worse complication down the track, but regardless of what you and I think about that, it won.

Which means that it will not be optional, and will get less optional over time. Just like systemd, your choices are now "use it", or "don't use the things that require it"; the second set is getting larger over time, and will continue to do so. Unless, y'know, y'all get involved in setting direction at RedHat (or is that IBM now), SuSE, and Debian, and point that direction at something better at solving the problem. Which, sadly, is a thing that also doesn't exist today, for at least a significant part of what PA does, let alone systemd, and don't you dare say JACK here. ;)

It sucks, but then, all software sucks. If you want to fight the tide, don't expect it to be easy.

PS: I have to think that someone might realise they got it wrong when they think "OK, to make this work I just need to implement a full message bus in the kernel..." but apparently no, that isn't sufficient. O_o

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by someone1337 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:05 pm

I basically never play with sound and would like to have the ability to disable sound instead of installing PA.

Especially because I am currently abroad (in .cz) and dont have the required roaming-data-plan to install PA+all its deps here, after updating factorio :(

@systemd: if you ask me, it solves the init-daemon problem pretty good...
... it just has the same issues as do most software: feature-creep and once it gets too bloated, or becomes unstabilisable, someone else will come up with a better, more lightweight solution...
(Or we get another X11 situation, where not even the core devs risk to change some code as noone knows what side effects it will have)

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Oxyd » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:14 pm

Hawk777 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:25 pm
I registered on the forums just to add my voice here: I’m disappointed that you chose to use PulseAudio by default instead of ALSA;
Thank you for registering and voicing your opinion. When making this change, I didn't really know what the reaction would be, and whilst it still seems like the correct move right now, I appreciate your feedback.
Hawk777 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:25 pm
it seems that using the latter would have made everyone happy, since as far as I know, PulseAudio intercepts applications using ALSA and routes them just fine, but it would also work for people not using PA.
That's how it was until now, but it didn't work for everyone. And I'd much rather have the game just work by default for most people, even if it doesn't work for people who consciously decided to go against the flow, than to have it the other way around.
Hawk777 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:25 pm
I’m happy that you don’t actually require PulseAudio to be used but rather sound seems to keep working as long as libpulse.so is installed, at least as of 0.17.54 (it seems to be shipped as part of the Steam runtime, so while it doesn’t work, it does exist). I’m also worried that this is the start of a slippery slope towards eventually requiring PA, which I hope isn’t your plan, but of course I have no way of knowing that.
Right now there's no such plan. We leave talking to backends to Allegro, so there's no additional cost for us to support multiple backends.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Hawk777 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:23 pm

Oxyd wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:14 pm
Right now there's no such plan. We leave talking to backends to Allegro, so there's no additional cost for us to support multiple backends.
Well that’s reassuring. I guess it’s a statically linked Allegro and you decide whether said library is built with or without PA support, and you changed from no to yes here. Perhaps there is a place for an implementation of libpulse.so that is even more minimal than apulse, it just fails everything so that an application linking to it will fall back to another backend, but without link errors! Could be a project to try sometime…

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by starxplor » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:50 am

jockeril wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:00 am
starxplor wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:23 am
Oxyd wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:40 pm

Yeah, that would be not a bug. And yes, actually using Pulse is not mandatory, you still have the option of using ALSA or OSS, but you need the libpulse.so library.
The above error is what happens when pulse is not installed. As pulse is listed as a dependency, this is an expected error. This is also saying that players without pulse are purposely not going to be able to play the game.

...

I would suggest instead of requiring pulse to run the program, making the game disable all sound when pulse is not found. This would allow people to continue playing without having to change their system's setup.
I think the sounds in the game and especially the music is important to the vibe and you're suggestion will lead to complaints and dissatisfaction. A better way to go, when detecting it is not installed is, to either display a message explaining Pulse is needed and giving a link to download it from a safe source or adding it to the install (if it's license allows it) and explaining how to install it,
I do not see how allowing more users to play the game, while not impacting the existing user base would create any complaints, let alone fewer complaints than already created with this change. There is really no reason the game should not still run and be playable without sound... I have literally never had the sound turned on when I played this game (or any other game within the last ten years).

Are you suggesting deaf players shouldn't be able to play the game either because they cannot hear it?

@devs Please just make it optional to run the game. For those who do not want or cannot install pulse, let them play without sounds. This would not affect any other players negatively.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Oktokolo » Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:22 am

Oxyd wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:14 pm
Right now there's no such plan. We leave talking to backends to Allegro, so there's no additional cost for us to support multiple backends.
Then please also support pure ALSA without installed PulseAudio.
Also please don't add systemd as dependency (wich obviously would be the next step when going with "the flow").

For the record: I did not need to do anything to not have PulseAudio installed - i just never installed it on my Gentoo (also did not install systemd and therefore don't have that either).

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Hawk777 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:33 am

starxplor wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:50 am
I do not see how allowing more users to play the game, while not impacting the existing user base would create any complaints, let alone fewer complaints than already created with this change. There is really no reason the game should not still run and be playable without sound... I have literally never had the sound turned on when I played this game (or any other game within the last ten years).

Are you suggesting deaf players shouldn't be able to play the game either because they cannot hear it?

@devs Please just make it optional to run the game. For those who do not want or cannot install pulse, let them play without sounds. This would not affect any other players negatively.
Not to minimize deaf people’s ability to enjoy Factorio, but personally, I do like having the sound, and would miss it if it were gone. I didn’t realize that the ALSA-to-Pulse routing didn’t work for some people, since my understanding was that that was how it was supposed to work; however, as Oxyd said a few posts ago, apparently it didn’t. In that case it makes sense to switch to a Pulse-linked Allegro, while requires the presence of a libpulse.so without requiring that the full Pulse system be up and running.

In my opinion, this is really the best of all worlds considering the full population: I imagine there are probably more people who lost out on sound due to ALSA-to-Pulse routing not working than there are who don’t want to use Pulse, and the latter still only have to install libpulse.so (they don’t actually have to use Pulse, and Oxyd confirmed this is expected to remain true for the forseeable future), and if they really don’t even want to install libpulse.so, they can use apulse or, probably, even write an even tinier fake libpulse.so that simply fails to do anything.
Oktokolo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:22 am
Then please also support pure ALSA without installed PulseAudio.
Allegro can be compiled with or without Pulse support, but Factorio uses a statically linked Allegro AFAICT, which means the Factorio devs choose one or the other: if they build with Pulse support, then libpulse.so is required to be present (even if ALSA eventually ends up being used); if they build without Pulse support, then Pulse is never used, even on systems where it’s the primary system. I have heard nothing about Allegro dlopening libpulse.so, which would be the only way to support Pulse without requiring it to be installed. The other option would be for Factorio to use the system Allegro instead of its own, but for a closed-source program that can’t be rebuilt with the user’s system Allegro headers, that’s probably an even worse idea.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by Oxyd » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:37 am

starxplor wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:50 am
Are you suggesting deaf players shouldn't be able to play the game either because they cannot hear it?
They can simply install PulseAudio, even if they won't use it. Again, PulseAudio is installed by default on every modern distro, so for the majority of people that means they don't have to do anything special.
Oktokolo wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:22 am
For the record: I did not need to do anything to not have PulseAudio installed - i just never installed it on my Gentoo (also did not install systemd and therefore don't have that either).
I expect Gentoo users to have enough technical prowess to deal with the situation. This is all about making it work well on a vanilla installation of something like Ubuntu – where people have been reporting issues – even if it means that Gentoo users who have decided to build their system without Pulse will have to settle for work-arounds.

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Re: Version 0.17.54

Post by FuryoftheStars » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:13 pm

TheRaph wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:44 pm
FactorioBot wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:51 pm
[*]Fixed that inserter tooltips would list pollution despite inserters being unable to produce pollution. (72855)
Why did a burner inserter don't produce pollution?
I’d like to know this too. It makes sense that a burner inserter would produce pollution while the electric ones don’t, so don’t understand why all have to be made to not produce pollution?

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