Version 0.17.4

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:21 pm

Henry Loenwind wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:29 pm
Yesterday my anti-virus just scanned Factorio for a couple of extra seconds. Today we're one step further...

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Floaf wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:36 pm
A lots of damage here :-)
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Avast is in a loooot of trouble if they dare to "question" Compilatron ! :lol:

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by lordaeron1 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:37 pm

wahming wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:41 pm
CDarklock wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:37 pm
(Loads up Factorio 0.17.3)
Forum: "Version 0.17.4"
*sigh*
(Closes Factorio and waits for update)
Better still...
(Playing Factorio 0.17.3)
Forum: "Version 0.17.4"
(Closes Factorio)
(Steam doesn't have the update yet)
*Facepalm*
Better still still...

Played a marathon from the release of 0.17 took a break to eat something so i won't collapse and ... BOOM i see that i am 4 Versions behind / Facepalm.

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:42 pm

Anson wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:01 pm
in addition to the above it takes additional time to always setup all options again.
since these are experimantal builds and lots of things can change, i don't dare to simply copy everything from the zip over on top of an existing install and thus cause conflicts with files or directories that might have been deleted, or whatever.
Well, going from ..2 to ..4, this time I just copy-pasted all the folders and files that didn't already exist in root (including /config/), and it seems to work fine so far...

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by Tigre Demon » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:09 pm

Hi ! Fantastic update ! I'm still sad I cannot have a shortcut for my deconstruct planner anymore ahah (I used to use MAJ +1)

Is it normal that laser turret don't have sound ?
Cannot pause anymore on multiplayer as well

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by BlueTemplar » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:54 pm

Tigre Demon wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:09 pm
Is it normal that laser turret don't have sound ?
Proposals for new turret sound here :
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65984
(including dubstep)

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by MadeMeReply » Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:53 am

Optera wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:33 pm
mmppolton wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:13 pm
still wating for incremental updates not want to keep on dowlaod a full install each time
I agree, having to manually download all HD assets and all those unchanged files over and over is getting really annoying, tedious and for those among us without unlimited plans expensive.
Fixing the updater should take priority.
Luckily, friend, there's a stable version 0.16.51 which already has the bugs ironed out. Check out the "stable releases" for versions which get fewer frequent updates, rather than the experimental branch which is being constantly updated.

It's only a gigabyte in size, but if that's an issue you could always wait until the initial bugs are worked out. After all, the experimental version 0.17 was only put out three days ago.

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by AngledLuffa » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:06 am

Tigre Demon wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:09 pm
I'm still sad I cannot have a shortcut for my deconstruct planner anymore
You can put a deconstruction planner in one of your toolbelt hotkeys and then put it in your inventory. Pressing Q seems to erase a blank planner and remove it from your hotkeys, which is suboptimal. Weirdly, deleting the deconstruction planner after putting it in your inventory also removes it from the toolbelt. Also not very intuitive.

Regarding trains, how do you rearrange the order of train stops? You used to be able to click and drag, but that no longer works as far as I can tell.

Also, there used to be an "inactivity" timer on trains which could be set higher than 2 minutes, but now 120s is the limit. I had a train which I could set to 5 minutes per trip for building more solar farm, and that no longer works.

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by Optera » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:17 am

MadeMeReply wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:53 am
Optera wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:33 pm
mmppolton wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:13 pm
still wating for incremental updates not want to keep on dowlaod a full install each time
I agree, having to manually download all HD assets and all those unchanged files over and over is getting really annoying, tedious and for those among us without unlimited plans expensive.
Fixing the updater should take priority.
Luckily, friend, there's a stable version 0.16.51 which already has the bugs ironed out. Check out the "stable releases" for versions which get fewer frequent updates, rather than the experimental branch which is being constantly updated.

It's only a gigabyte in size, but if that's an issue you could always wait until the initial bugs are worked out. After all, the experimental version 0.17 was only put out three days ago.
Well smarty pants, if I did that you and everyone else would not have gotten updates to LTN, Loader Redux and other mods with 1000+ users.

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by meganothing » Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:41 pm

AngledLuffa wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:06 am
Regarding trains, how do you rearrange the order of train stops? You used to be able to click and drag, but that no longer works as far as I can tell.
There is a riffled part on the right of the train stop bar. There you can "pick them up" and move them.

What is missing is automatic scrolling in the list when you get to the top or bottom of the window.

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by Aardwolf » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:00 pm

With the current blueprint design, I don't understand why the "blueprint book" button in the bar at the bottom doesn't just show my blueprints and allow to use them?

Instead all it does is make the mouse pointer a blueprint book to put in the inventory.

But when we have this nice bar at the bottom with a "blueprint book" and a "+blueprint" button, why does my inventory need to be involved at all in this?

It seems like it would be way more intuitive if that blueprint book button would just show the blueprints I created with the "+blueprint" button above it...

Thanks for considering :)

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by Asterix » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:19 pm

I have been playing factorio since... 0.12 or so? Today I downloaded 0.17 and started the tutorial.

Playing as a complete noob, here is my feeling when, about 1/3 of the way through the research of logistics packs, a horde of biters started eating through my defenses - which, at that point, had run out of bullets: "Man, this game sucks. I don't know what people find in it. I can't even finish this shitty tutorial."

At that point, I decided to close the game and give it a rest.

Final verdict: a game that doesn't even let you finish the tutorial is not a game I am willing to spend money on.

Luckily I already got my money's worth in the previous 5 versions, otherwise I'd be pretty pissed right now.

I'm sure there is a profound lesson to be learned from all this, but a game that throws wave after wave of enemies at you just to make sure that you can't complete the turotial is... Well, it's not the description I would have used for factorio up until this morning.

I can photoshop a "ah-hah, you suck!" jpg in a lot less time than it takes to arrive at that point of the tutorial, if I feel in a particular need of somebody to call me a sucker. Hell, I'm sure I can find one on the internet in an even shorter time.

Also, there are a couple of alignment bugs that make it hard to read certain texts, but honestly, who cares.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm sure freeplay is still fun... Probably... I don't know, I don't feel a particular desire to try it at the moment. Which is probably telling.

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by brunzenstein » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:51 pm

Asterix wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:19 pm

Final verdict: a game that doesn't even let you finish the tutorial is not a game I am willing to spend money on.

Luckily I already got my money's worth in the previous 5 versions, otherwise I'd be pretty pissed right now.
I fully agree with Asterix.
If the developers would put only half of their dedication on combinator stuff and/ or teaching logic (explaining within the tutorial S/R latches, clocks e.g. and their practical uses in Factorio) they misguided focus on the (comparable in essence primitive task - if I want a good shooter I turn elsewhere) biters evolution, a roaring applause would result.
Logic, strategy, thinking out of the box and at the same time deep thinking like in chess was always the underlying DNA of Factorio
But so...

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by CDarklock » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:54 pm

Asterix wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:19 pm
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm sure freeplay is still fun...
It's different than it used to be. You have to watch your pollution more closely, which isn't especially hard, but if you're not used to it... and you say "let me shove sixteen mining drills over here as fast as I can" because you are gonna need a lot of iron... things are going to get bad pretty fast.

Like I just started a freeplay world, and if you look at the map, the decisions I would make in 0.16 are very different. I've got a good starting resource patch, not too far from a little lake to the east.

freeplay.png
freeplay.png (40.74 KiB) Viewed 1218 times

However, the biter bases near there are a much bigger problem now. And I have little to no confidence that if I started running even a couple of steam engine on the shore of that lake, the biters would be sufficiently unbothered to leave them alone while I researched the military technologies I need to eliminate them. So I'm far more likely to head southwest to the much larger lake, which also has some natural cliffs to funnel attacks into chokepoints I'll be able to defend more easily.

And instead of rushing my operation, I'm taking things more slowly and collecting a substantial amount of resources with just a few drills running at once, so I can sneak down to the beach and run a quiet little research operation for a while - maybe an hour or two - until I can make my way over to those bases and eliminate them.

A lot of experienced players (myself included) are accustomed to saying "pfft, biters, I got something you can bite right here" because biters in 0.16 and earlier were like... a joke.

I can't say that anymore. Maybe you're a lot better at fighting them than I am, and you still can. But I can't, and a lot of other people are basically complaining that they can't either. Biters are showing up faster and in greater numbers, taking out more of the base, soaking up more ammo from your turrets, damaging more of your walls. And the next wave happens sooner than you expect. They're a significant resource drain.

I... kinda like the changes. I mean, not really, I hate biters and I hate having to fight them and I hate that they're a bigger pain in the arse than ever before. But it makes the initial part of the game more delicate, something you have to think about, rather than just being "BUILD ALL THE THINGS" and scaling up in the first hour to the point that biters barely mean anything.

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:21 pm

CDarklock wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:54 pm
It's different than it used to be. You have to watch your pollution more closely, which isn't especially hard, but if you're not used to it... and you say "let me shove sixteen mining drills over here as fast as I can" because you are gonna need a lot of iron... things are going to get bad pretty fast.
Hmm, why do you think that ?
AFAIK, desert start on default* settings should be easier than before, since desert absorbs more pollution now.
Do you think that biter bases are closer than before ?
(This might be an indirect consequence of how your starting lake and resources seem to be able to be a little more off-center than before ?)
Otherwise, I'm not aware of any changes concerning biter strength or pollution cost ?
(I've heard that spitters are nastier though?)

Maybe you've just never played a desert start before ?
(EDIT : This might be a huge problem for new players, that might think that a desert start is representative of Factorio freeplay - this is probably why desert absorption has been increased ! )

*Now, Deathworld seems much nastier with its 50% absorption penalty...

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by CDarklock » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:34 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:21 pm
Hmm, why do you think that ?
Because you have a pistol and ten magazines, and if you're racing to get drills up, you're not investing any of your resources in military research or ammo production. The first two or three attacks, you'll be fine. But if you don't pay it no never mind, your pollution will draw those in pretty quick.
Do you think that biter bases are closer than before ?
Yes and no. There seem to be a couple biter bases closer, but they are smaller ones, and the big ones seem farther away than usual.

EDIT: I am a "no preview" player. I do not click preview, I click play, and what I get is what I get. This does not seem to be the norm.
Otherwise, I'm not aware of any changes concerning biter strength or pollution cost ?
I've not seen anything explicit about it, but watching a few YouTubers start new games in 0.17, the biter attacks look to be plowing through a lot more of the base than the 0.16 attacks did. They seem to overwhelm turrets more effectively, as well.
Maybe you've just never played a desert start before ?
Honestly, I've only ever had a desert start, so that's probably not it. ;)

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:56 pm

EDIT: I am a "no preview" player. I do not click preview, I click play, and what I get is what I get. This does not seem to be the norm.
IMHO "Preview" is for getting an idea of the kind of map that the current settings have selected. Using it to select a specific map would (usually) be akin to cheating.
I use "Restart" if I see that I *really* don't like what I've been dealt. (Mostly needed in modded games.)
Funnily enough, it seems faster than "Preview" (on my PC at least...)
CDarklock wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:34 pm
The first two or three attacks, you'll be fine. But if you don't pay it no never mind, your pollution will draw those in pretty quick.
Well, at some point the correction of "infinite absorption" bug is going to make attacks much nastier and/or frequent than in 0.16, but that's a long way off from start, since you would need to saturate the first "circle" of spawners first !

Also, water should absorb less now, but I'm not sure how impactful that is... (and it seems that the wiki hasn't been updated yet.)
FFF wrote:grass and sand pollution absorption was brought closer together
My mistake, this might mean that grass is harder, rather than desert easier !

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by CDarklock » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:32 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:56 pm
Well, at some point the correction of "infinite absorption" bug is going to make attacks much nastier and/or frequent than in 0.16, but that's a long way off from start, since you would need to saturate the first "circle" of spawners first !
That only takes a few hundred pollution, though. And when people are cranking out a few thousand...

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by Schallfalke » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:34 am

Asterix wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:19 pm
I have been playing factorio since... 0.12 or so? Today I downloaded 0.17 and started the tutorial.

Playing as a complete noob, here is my feeling when, about 1/3 of the way through the research of logistics packs, a horde of biters started eating through my defenses - which, at that point, had run out of bullets: "Man, this game sucks. I don't know what people find in it. I can't even finish this shitty tutorial."

At that point, I decided to close the game and give it a rest.

Final verdict: a game that doesn't even let you finish the tutorial is not a game I am willing to spend money on.
...
I also played the tutorial at 0.17.0, so I totally understand your comments.
I deployed 8 turrets on each side, to just barely hold biters at bay (turrets still get attacked occasionally without destruction.) I don't understand why developers like to scare off new players as their FIRST experience. This WRONGLY gives the players the impression that Factorio is a combat game or horror game.

Devs seems to mix up what a tutorial campaign and testing ground should be.
If the devs want to pose some challenge, or test their "proudly presented" difficulty system, it should be done in a SEPARATE tutorial.

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by CDarklock » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:37 am

Schallfalke wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:34 am
This WRONGLY gives the players the impression that Factorio is a combat game or horror game.
After spending about fifty hours in the campaign, because I think it's fun, I'm now in freeplay. Fully default settings. I'm also watching several YouTubers - Nilaus, Xterminator, Tuplex, Soelless Gaming, and obviously Katherine of Sky - go through the 0.17 freeplay with various settings. And I am reaching a certain conclusion.

The combat portion of the campaign starts out as an only mildly accelerated representation of how much combat you can expect, building a given factory that close to a biter base. You have a limited amount of space, and you pretty much have to build right here, just a short distance from a substantial base. And that is a Bad Idea, because this is what happens to you when you do that.

In freeplay, you won't be forced into that, but I think you're supposed to come away from the campaign with a clear impression of how close is too close.

It definitely impacted my decision of where to expand in my current game. I made the tradeoff of moving almost twice as far from the resource patches to set up electricity and early production automation, because the closest available water was too near a biter base. And I'm less focused on production and resource gathering right now, because I'd like to get rid of that base so I can expand into that area.

In 0.16, I would likely have ignored that base entirely. And I could have.

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Re: Version 0.17.4

Post by Asterix » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:14 am

CDarklock wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:37 am

The combat portion of the campaign starts out as an only mildly accelerated representation of how much combat you can expect, building a given factory that close to a biter base. You have a limited amount of space, and you pretty much have to build right here, just a short distance from a substantial base. And that is a Bad Idea, because this is what happens to you when you do that.
During the tutorial, I was running two labs, two boilers, and maybe 16 furnaces total. Add the drills required to supply said furnaces, and the assemblers required to keep the bullets coming, and the amount of bugs one would expect from that setup is... One small group every few minutes? Certainly not two hordes every few seconds. By the end, my turrets (the few that still had bullets) couldn't even finish dealing with one horde before the next arrived.

In my opinion, the largest problem is the second bullshit spawner on the right side. Without it, not only would the hordes be half as big, and thus much more reasonable, but the devs could use it as a chance to explain pollution, and teach the player to move their pollution centers away from biter bases.

Instead, you get to learn how to die a lot.

Fun?

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