Version 0.16.7

[jonatkins]

Please reconsider removing multi-tank wagons.

The previous implementation could be simplified - so it's simply an option between single large tank or 3 separate tanks, rather than the two separate 'tank connection' options that existed before. Less confusing for the user, but still gives flexibility.

Hell - if you don't want a GUI at all, just allow crafting of two wagon types - single large tank, and a 3 small tank version. (I haven't checked - but would it be easy to mod a 3-tank wagon in this version?)

[spinba11]

I say yes to keeping the tanks separated the only down side will be you will need 2 extra pumps at each stop (assuming you are using only 1 to start with)

[Colin969]

This is... pretty shit honestly.

Not even given an explanation as to why, just removed out of the blue.

[tk0421]

The removal was not the gui problem itself. The fix wouldn't be that hard. But we opened the question whether the feature really adds enough to justify all the logic and gui around it, and we kind of discovered that the feature usefulness is too minor to justify the complications for the player.

but its an opt-in feature by default. all 3 tanks were flow unrestricted at creation, you had to manually separate them. that itself shows that the players that used it were readily able to comprehend the 'complication'.

[impetus maximus]

but its an opt-in feature by default. all 3 tanks were flow unrestricted at creation, you had to manually separate them. that itself shows that the players that used it were readily able to comprehend the 'complication'.

agreed. plus, we have pop-up tutorials now don't we?

[Lapsus]

The removal was not the gui problem itself. The fix wouldn't be that hard. But we opened the question whether the feature really adds enough to justify all the logic and gui around it, and we kind of discovered that the feature usefulness is too minor to justify the complications for the player.

The usefulness is too minor to justify the complications? I mean, maybe it does have a marginal usefulness and can be ignored by new players, but the same argument can be made about circuit networks and all the combinators and other things. Does that mean that those might be next on the chopping block? They're of questionable usefulness sometimes too.

Factorio is a game about complex systems, doesn't removing complexity kinda defeat the point?

At the very least, is this something that can be messed with via mods? I did manage to use the separate tanks fairly often, even if it was just me overcomplicating things for my own enjoyment.

[supernet2]

• Removed the mechanics of 3 different fluid tanks in fluid wagon, and simplified it so the fluid wagon has just 1 fluid.

I guess it was too rarely used to justify making it work each time.

That sucks because I use that feature very often. I do hope this feature is implemented or allowing 3 smaller tanks to be made, ie mini tank wagons to replace the larger tank wagon that had a 3in 1 ordeal. Big feature I always loved using during my resource hauls or piping out multiple tanks of different liquid to different points faster, and quicker vs burning through steel to create barrels and then taking more time to build or adapt existing structures just to shuffle liquid.

[looney]

So if I disable the pump based on train contents, I have to have different train stops for different fluid levels.

[Veklim]

Have to say this is the first negative thing I've seen happen in a VERY long while on Factorio, and the last time was the sudden unpowered inserter behaviour change which broke so very many people's stuff (including a lot of my own factory at the time). Hoping this will be reinstated as-was, since unless messed with they counted as one large tank anyhow, as has already been said, those who used the separators knew what they were doing and had a good reason to do it. This will violate some pretty standard features of my builds, and will require extensive remodelling in my most developed and automated factory.

Alas....

[arbarbonif]

You can read the contents of the stoped train trough the station, then wire it to the pump. I set it so that it pumps only the requied amount (~4k acid).

Except I am already wiring up the station so that it knows when anything it supplies needs the liquids. I'm going to need an annoying converter gate so that the train doesn't contaminate the main circuit connection that runs my factory (and so I can distinguish the request signal from the train contents signal). I seem to be weird in that I use lots of multi-product trains and stations (largely due to Bob's). I ended up just restarting my factory instead of trying to fix my old one.

[Killcreek2]

The removal was not the gui problem itself. The fix wouldn't be that hard. But we opened the question whether the feature really adds enough to justify all the logic and gui around it, and we kind of discovered that the feature usefulness is too minor to justify the complications for the player.

"Usefulness too minor to justify"? Too MINOR!? Totally 100% disagree with that statement. In fact, the usefulness I have gotten out of the feature far outweighs the slight complication of having to open a simple gui.
2x clicks to set up the optional partitions is far from "complicated", so this change does not help anyone who did not use the feature, but penalises everyone who did.

It was amazingly useful to have 2-3 different fluids in a single wagon: made it a delightful alternative to barrelling fluids for small-scale production lines. I used this extensively in my 1:1 tiny-trains-only playthrough: only oil & water were full 75k mono-fluid wagons.

But now I have go back to using 1 wagon of mixed barrels as I did pre-fluid-wagons, OR use triple-wagon trains, OR use 3x as many 1:1 trains running 1/3rd of the time. Such a pity to lose a convenient feature, for no apparently-good reason. Shall stick to 0.16.6 while you hopefully rethink this bizarre change.


Other than this odd choice & [temporary?] loss of sideloading compression, you guys are doing fantastic work with 0.16, keep it up!

[Amgdust]

Well, as they were writing in the topic spinba11 posted, it would be nice to have 3 tanks without gui.

It would fit existing graphics well and there is no easier thing to do than use 3 pipes to load/unload whole wagon.
I think most players do it anyway.

totally agree with you Mango. give us the three separate tanks, and disable the ability to connect them.

100%. Id vote for this. I like the utility it provides, though I do not necessarily see an issue with using two separate tanker wagons either.

[lindahartlen]

I also disagree it was a minor thing. I used it quite extensively. Uranium mining trains, having one tank empty meant I could very easily pack it all up and pump the leftover acid into that. Now i need to either set up circuit network to never fill the wagon (not hard) or barrel it again. And frankly now just barrelling everything is just plain easier. Can hold more in the wagons, I can have any mixture of liquids I want. So for me, it kinda pushes me away from using the tank wagon all together. It is just easier to just always barrel things then have a tank wagon in one place and barrels in another. Makes it harder to have the trains do more than one thing.

Please please rethink this. You yourself admitted the fix wasn't all that hard to do. heck just remove that gui part and call it done. We can still see how much is in the tanks.

[TatsuZZMage]

.... wow the only reason i used the fluid wagon was this now its just pointless.... really hope the change is reversed... or able to mod back in.

[dgw]

I haven't been commenting on new releases much, partly due to IRL events and partly because I've had nothing substantive to say except variations on "That's great!" or "I'm really excited for this change." Figured it would just add noise, though once in a while I do like to show my appreciation for all the patches this game gets.

But I'm really disappointed by the decision to remove separated fluid wagon compartments. Deeply, deeply disappointed. It's one of those no-brainer features that makes perfect sense: A fluid wagon costs three storage tanks, and holds three tanks' worth of fluid, and takes three pump connections, so of course those tanks can be made to operate independently if needed. It's so logical, I never questioned why the feature existed.

To the point of it being a "marginal" feature that didn't get used much, I agree only in that I was never able to come up with a design that took advantage of it playing vanilla with mostly QoL mods. I've always wanted to come up with an outpost or subfactory design that used mixed fluid wagons, though, and I'm afraid I won't get the chance now.

The bug report thread where this change was initially mentioned by Kovarex was just a GUI bug. Removing an entire feature because of a visual glitch in a dialog (with information that is available by other means, to boot) seems like an overreaction, perhaps induced by the stress of pushing out all these bug fixes for 0.16 before the holidays.

I'm going to hope that this will be addressed in depth when the devs get a chance to breathe, and also that they will consider two different types of fluid wagon (one big tank, and the current three small tanks). Migration would be a concern with that change, but given the change in boiler size as an example, it wouldn't be the end of the world to make players fix their fluid wagon setups once.

tl;dr this change came out of left field, and seems to have been a knee-jerk reaction to fix an unimportant GUI bug that could have waited for a more thought-out solution.

[Optera]

Having only one fluid icon on the middle tank made me think my setups here broken.
Generally though I welcome having to worry only about a single fluid box per wagon. Makes coding for it a fair bit simpler as I don't have to worry which tanks are connected and which are not.

[Avezo]

Before fluid wagons were implemented, the one available through mod was also single-fluid tank and it seemed fine.

[Koub]

To all people complaining the end of 3-liquid wagons is the end of Factorio, the real question is : would you have missed that feature that much if it had never existed, and the fluid wagon had from start been as it is now ? You mostly miss it because you got used to it.
The goal the devs aim to is not to keep every existing player in his/her comfort zone, but to make a 1.0 version that will be the best possible for a new player. Other "breaking" changes have been made in the past years, and all the people who haven't lived them wouldn't understand today why the drama then, when they happened.
If you want fome feature back for your own comfort or playstyle, then you're asking things for the wrong reasons. Ask them for the new player, to make HIS/HER gaming experience the best possible.
And always remember, this is alpha, so nothing is engraved into stone.

[Xeteth]

To all people complaining the end of 3-liquid wagons is the end of Factorio, the real question is : would you have missed that feature that much if it had never existed, and the fluid wagon had from start been as it is now ? You mostly miss it because you got used to it.

Nothing wrong with that - let's say someone came into your workplace and changed something that you've gotten used to and interact with all the time, wouldn't you be wanting your old system back? Especially if it removed usefulness you are used to?

The goal the devs aim to is not to keep every existing player in his/her comfort zone, but to make a 1.0 version that will be the best possible for a new player.

Incorrect. The goal is to make a polished product that is both user-friendly to the new player whilst engaging and providing for it's existing audience. Let's remember that this is Factorio; one of the most customizable and complex sandbox games there is. The beauty of this game is that a new player can jump on and make a bunch of spaghetti that results in launching a rocket and have a great time doing it, whilst an experienced veteran player can make the most intricate and specialized designs for all sorts of purposes and also have a great time doing it. Removal of a feature which allowed this level of customization is why we are seeing this reaction.

If you want some feature back for your own comfort or play style, then you're asking things for the wrong reasons. Ask them for the new player, to make HIS/HER gaming experience the best possible.
And always remember, this is alpha, so nothing is engraved into stone.

Again - this game isn't just for the new players. We are the players that have watched and played as this game evolves, often providing valuable feedback along the way.

Furthermore I feel this change has not fully been thought out when it comes to the finer details - for example:
The fluid wagon can hold 75k units of fluid yet is the length of two standard tanks (for a total of 50k fluid) - wouldn't it be better that the fluid wagon as such holds 50k? Would make things a ton easier to work with.

Personally I loved having separate tanks. I would much rather these be re-introduced even if there is a removal of the GUI (simply make each tank independent).

[Crombie70]

Just wanted to throw in my request to revert the changes to the fluid wagons. TBH when I first started playing the game I was not even aware that I could split the fluid containers and did not even realize the split ability until I clicked on the fluid wagon one day. Due to the default behavior, the new gamer should not be hindered in any way by the three liquid containers on a single wagon and be happy to discover the flexibility that the wagon offers in a future play through.

I don't understand the "make it easier for the player" argument. Factorio is built on flexibly complex systems, and, for me, discovering how to use those systems in as many ways as possible is one of the major appeals of the game. These complex systems allow players to use different solutions / methods to achieve the same result / outcome. TBH without these complex systems, I am not sure how much replay value there would be to this game.

As noted at the beginning of this post, since the default configuration of the 3-fluid container wagons was to treat it as a single container, you have already appealed to the beginner Factorio player, and by allowing the possibility of separating the containers you had also appealed to the experienced Factorio player giving you the best of both worlds. One final note, I am not sure why anyone would have thought that the GUI to separate the three containers was confusing or convoluted in any way. Once I discovered that it was even possible, IMHO, it was straight forward.

Just my thoughts.