Version 0.15.12

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Tev
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by Tev »

I agree, demands for mega-blueprints placing convenience are ridiculous. Cries of "useless" map view even more so. It actually is counterproductive - such display of laziness will only make devs more cautious of adding things for easier gameplay, as they obviously can't tweak their power without major backlash.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by HurkWurk »

i disagree, the whole point of crawling up the tech tree is so that you stop doing things yourself and start using your automation.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by Kelderek »

I think what you guys are asking for on the map view simply is not appropriate for the vanilla game. I would buy those arguments about large blueprints and automation, etc. if we did not have an actual character in the game and it was a fully god-like perspective (like a prison architect type of view). Since we have a character to play then it is entirely reasonable that there is an upper limit on the range of things you can view from that point of view.

The ability to use blueprints larger than the max zoom of the player character is the perfect kind of thing to do in a mod, not in vanilla. The devs need to design the game for a baseline of what they want the average player to be able to do, this is the vanilla version and for those who want to do other things there are always mods. I would hazard a guess that the majority of factorio players would not even attempt to make blueprints that large.

There are a lot of other examples where the devs are leaving this sort of thing to mods and out of the base game. Long Reach is a very similar example.

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Tev
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by Tev »

HurkWurk wrote:i disagree, the whole point of crawling up the tech tree is so that you stop doing things yourself and start using your automation.
Automation != Convenience

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by ASB44 »

Kelderek wrote:I think what you guys are asking for on the map view simply is not appropriate for the vanilla game. I would buy those arguments about large blueprints and automation, etc. if we did not have an actual character in the game and it was a fully god-like perspective (like a prison architect type of view). Since we have a character to play then it is entirely reasonable that there is an upper limit on the range of things you can view from that point of view.

The ability to use blueprints larger than the max zoom of the player character is the perfect kind of thing to do in a mod, not in vanilla. The devs need to design the game for a baseline of what they want the average player to be able to do, this is the vanilla version and for those who want to do other things there are always mods. I would hazard a guess that the majority of factorio players would not even attempt to make blueprints that large.

There are a lot of other examples where the devs are leaving this sort of thing to mods and out of the base game. Long Reach is a very similar example.
convenient != overpowered
Even if the world view was locked behind a truckload of research it would be better than what we have now as long as the zoom is at least equal to the player max zoom or more. right now the zoom-to-world is 80%~ of the players local max view which makes viewing your factory in this mode a bit infuriating because it doesn't even match the max so you can get by walking around.

if the player wants to quickly and easily create a new factory to blueprint you still have to be there to configure all the machinery.
this is hardly an overpowered feature.

making things more convoluted is not the core gameplay of Factorio is to provide challenges that are interesting without being a chore.
If someone wants a game with convoluted gameplay then dwarf fortress would be a fantastic game to choose over Factorio.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by nevniv »

I'm against the blueprint placing, I am not even sure how I feel about being able to check on biter attacks remotely just because I have "radar" nearby, although I admit I do it since I can.

I think the only answer is for this to be configurable somehow in the menus. People playing single player can choose not to do it but if someone hosting a multiplayer game wants it disabled it needs to be configurable.

P.S. Thanks for the update, devs!

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by Oxyd »

Code: Select all

/c game.player.character = nil

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by Sander_Bouwhuis »

@Oxyd
What does that do? Can you then play like Civilization / Prison Architect where you don't have a character to walk around (which I hate with a passion) and can just build to your heart's content while scrolling/panning around the map?

I like to build things, but hate to walk everywhere. That's also why I play without biters. You could say I'm playing the sandbox version of Factorio. Kids + work = little time to play.

Please tell me that is it!!

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by impetus maximus »

just try it.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by Taipion »

Rseding91 wrote:
Klonan wrote:
jarcionek wrote:It's at least the third time you are highlighting that all of that is intentional.
Well we don't accidentally commit code...
... mostly :P
So, what was it this time?
malventano wrote:
ASB44 wrote:
Blackraz0r wrote:
  • Zooming with the mousewheel in the map and zoom-to-world is less aggresive.
I feel like this did not changed the initial problem of having a wider view without the map than in map.

Ref: Wierd Map View
The zoom-to-world view distance is not as wide as the player max view distance.
Its about 80%~ of width the current player max view has. I hope they at least change it to be equal in distance as the player max view distance.
Yeah, all they changed was decreasing the 'step' zoom change step. Still seems to undermine the whole benefit of being able to remote view larger areas covered by radar, as the remote viewable area is still smaller than what you can view locally. Dealing with longer blueprints is still just as annoying as it was in 0.15.10 (something that was fixed in <0.15.10). There were like 10+ comments in the 0.15.10 release thread about this point. I wish the devs would explain the decision.
I, too, wish they did, but they rarely ever do, which kind of makes them look ....not all too smart.

Mostly, it kind of looks like they did a mistake and they know it, and don't want to talk about it because of fear, which only annoys the players and does not fix anything.
Bad communication really is a bad thing, what prevents them to add one or two lines for some of the less easily understandable decisions?!
You can figure out the design/architecture and code/implement it, yet you can't add one or two lines explaining why that had to be done?
...well, if you can't explain something in simple words, you don't understand it well enough.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by 5thHorseman »

Taipion wrote:...well, if you can't explain something in simple words, you don't understand it well enough.
I know, just look at Einstein's leaflet on General Relativity and Hawking's Uncertainty Principle haiku.

Just because you don't understand why someone did something, doesn't mean they're dumb and hateful.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by Taipion »

5thHorseman wrote:
Taipion wrote:...well, if you can't explain something in simple words, you don't understand it well enough.
I know, just look at Einstein's leaflet on General Relativity and Hawking's Uncertainty Principle haiku.

Just because you don't understand why someone did something, doesn't mean they're dumb and hateful.
1. That quote is actualy from Einstein, your text does not exactly reflect if you know that.
2. You mix three things up here that are all taken wrong from my post, that is:
3. Not "hateful" but afraid, that is how the devs look by ignoring questions and denying any explanation as to why they "had to" change/do certain things
4. Not "dumb", but probably unknowing that this course of action is leading to more problems, rather that solving them, problems don't go away if you simply ignore them
5. Not "Just because you don't understand", as there is nothing to understand yet, as things are done seemingly arbitrary, I for myself want to understand, but it is probably not only me, and I did not have the chance yet to try, as there is nothing to understand currently, as there was no explanation yet

[edit:] And the uncertainty pricinple is Heisenbergs work, not Hawkings.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by Engimage »

I think in this case explanation will lead to a huge discussion which will be harmful in many ways.
So the smart decision was just to say - deal with it. Short and uncompromising.
Most devs use the latest methodology for the most of decisions they make. Wube guys use that as a last resort. But I do trust their wisdom which has been proven all around.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by Taipion »

PacifyerGrey wrote:I think in this case explanation will lead to a huge discussion which will be harmful in many ways.
So the smart decision was just to say - deal with it. Short and uncompromising.
Most devs use the latest methodology for the most of decisions they make. Wube guys use that as a last resort. But I do trust their wisdom which has been proven all around.
I see that their fearful silence is fully intentional, just let me explain something:


Good:
- for questionalbe decisions, make a statement and explain shortly why you made a decision
- if you do not intent to change your mind, state that also, which invalidates further discussions
- this shows resolve and reason, and that you are aware that not everyone can always agree with everything you say and do
- there may be people who disagree, and continue to do so, but it makes the situation clear and understandable for everyone

Bad:
- say nothing
- looks like you do not care, not for that decision, nor for the people it effects
- looks like you made a mistake and don't want to talk about it / forget about it
- looks like you do not understand, either what you did yourself, or the implications
- makes you look frigthened due to that
- incites people to make further questions, assumptions and probably false deductions
- encourages possibly pointless discussions
- leaves everyone in an unresolved state, nothing is clear
- makes you look bad, for many reasons
Last edited by Taipion on Fri May 19, 2017 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by factoriouzr »

Rseding91 wrote:
Klonan wrote:
jarcionek wrote:It's at least the third time you are highlighting that all of that is intentional.
Well we don't accidentally commit code...
... mostly :P
lol

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by factoriouzr »

porcupine wrote:
Klonan wrote:
jarcionek wrote:It's at least the third time you are highlighting that all of that is intentional.
Well we don't accidentally commit code...
Can you at least let us know why it's been done this way?

What's driving this change, since obviously it's not being driven by user/public feedback.
Exactly.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by factoriouzr »

tk0421 wrote:
SeaRyanC wrote:Not updating until the 0.15.10 level of map-camera zoom is restored. Placing large blueprints is far too cumbersome otherwise.
i really dislike the zoom to world level now as well. can zoom out farther in normal mode than you can in map view. this was the best feature of the new map view mode, as it allowed you to inspect things from greater distance. now its useless
+1

let us configure it in options, and let us set it to be more then even in 0.15.10

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by factoriouzr »

jarcionek wrote:
Kelderek wrote:
SeaRyanC wrote:Not updating until the 0.15.10 level of map-camera zoom is restored. Placing large blueprints is far too cumbersome otherwise.
Maybe the design intent is that for large enough blueprints and construction work you should actually go to that location in person? Also it is a bit lame to make a demand like this for a feature that never existed prior to a short while ago and now you won't update until you get it exactly the way you want it. That's a poor attitude to have for features in an experimental alpha release.
tk0421 wrote:i really dislike the zoom to world level now as well. can zoom out farther in normal mode than you can in map view. this was the best feature of the new map view mode, as it allowed you to inspect things from greater distance. now its useless
Useless? That's a bit harsh. What did you do before this feature was added? It sounds to me like you're hoping for some kind of "God Mode". It makes no sense to me that the view you get from radar coverage is as good or better than what you can see in person. In my opinion it should definitely be lower quality and lower range, but that doesn't equate to being useless. You're just mad because you want to use it differently than it was intended, you want a god mode and that is not what this is for. The intent seems to be for you to get the gist of what is happening at another location and to have some small construction capability from that distance, but to have it be just as good as what you can do in person is taking it a bit too far in my mind.

Consider espionage. You always get better info from a human on the ground than from a spy satellite in orbit. This is the same concept but with radar coverage instead. If you want the best ability and access then you should have to go there in person and apart from that there are still some useful things you can do from far away using the map view. If that prevents placing ridiculously large blueprints from the map view then I am ok with that -- make your blueprints smaller or just move your lazy butt over to that spot.

If you're that desperate for a change, I'm sure someone could mod it to be the way you want it. I think the devs are on the right track for how it should be in vanilla.
Let me remind you that the game is about automation. You don't do the same micro-management over and over again, instead you design small component, copy it into a blueprint and paste multiple times, then create bigger component and so on... After a few hundred hours on a single map, you will have a factory that takes a couple of minutes to go from one end to the other - and I am not talking here about mines or a solar plant.

I have done a few hundred hours of running around the factory - that's enough, now I want to expand it by pasting bigger and bigger blueprints and the new map was perfect for it until it was drastically made worse for no clear reason.

Do you think it's overpowered? So let's turn it into technologies:
  • one for enabling the `world view` on the map and decreasing the zoom level at which you can still see the world on the map
  • one for reducing the noise level on the map - let's make the noise annoying at the beginning, just like it was in 0.15.0 (or maybe even more annoying than that)
  • one for maximum distance from the player where the map can still switch to `world view` - this one can be infinite research, although I would make the cost linear, not exponential
This way it wouldn't be available early in the game - so you still have to do a lot of running - but as you progress through the game it would allow you to do more and more remotely.

Yes technology would work, but I have a bigger question. Why is this even a big deal for the developers to allow us to see bigger areas remotely? How does that detract in any way from the gameplay? If you want to do the same thing, you can walk or drive, or whatever to that part of the factory and put down you big blueprint or inspect your factory or whatever. So you can do that now even without map zoom to world. So the question is, is walking, driving etc. fun for long distances for this purpose, especially after investing in the radar tech and building there in the first place and investing hundreds of hours into the game? The answer is generally no. After you have driven or walked there so many times, we just want to check or update our factory, the transportation there doesn't add anything to the gameplay.

Also consider how right from the start of the game we have a train management system that can track all train in real time even without radar coverage. This system can even give you a live video feed from the sky of each train. How is this possible from the beginning of the game, yet we can't see a large view of our factory remotely, when we actually invested in the infrastructure to allow this?

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by factoriouzr »

impetus maximus wrote:boy, lots of people bitching about the blueprint from map view thing.
in my opinion you shouldn't even be able to lay a blueprint in that mode. feels like cheating.
get off your ass, get over there and lay it yourself. :lol:
lol :lol:

However it's about fun factor. Increasing enjoyment while minimizing tedious tasks.

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Post by Taipion »

factoriouzr wrote:
impetus maximus wrote:boy, lots of people bitching about the blueprint from map view thing.
in my opinion you shouldn't even be able to lay a blueprint in that mode. feels like cheating.
get off your ass, get over there and lay it yourself. :lol:
lol :lol:

However it's about fun factor. Increasing enjoyment while minimizing tedious tasks.
Yea some people are either notorious trolls, or can't stand it if someone else has fun, too.

- This is a game, it is meant to be fun.
- This game is about automation, higher technology (like, robots) and infrastructure (like, roboports) should enable you to do more within the same time (= automation)

If somone is not ok with anything, big surprise incoming (!) then you can just NOT do it yourself! Incredible, isn't it?!
And if you think it's necessary, you can try and ask for it to become adjustable as an option or mod-able.

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