Version 0.15.11

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agentgoblin
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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by agentgoblin » Tue May 16, 2017 6:30 pm

mbritb wrote:
porcupine wrote:Obviously not a problem, but popping open my save from last night, I get a dialogue box, reading:

"Migrated content
Removed decoratives
red-desert-decal 34"

I'm assuming some of the decal graphics changed and what have you... Just figured I'd post here in case this was unexpected (so at least google gets an exact hit!) :)
Same issue here. It removed 135 for me.
Me join to party. Removed 119.

TPRJones
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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by TPRJones » Tue May 16, 2017 6:37 pm

With the update it seems to be ignoring the port in "--bind" and going to the default 31497, which is problematic on shared servers. Although I'm not entirely certain if this is a problem with the update or with something else in my setup. Has anyone else experienced this problem?

EDIT: I was able to override the problem using port in the config.ini, but it's still weird about the "--bind" doing nothing.
Last edited by TPRJones on Tue May 16, 2017 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

malventano
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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by malventano » Tue May 16, 2017 6:59 pm

Bardaky wrote:Although I agree with the fact that nuclear power was overpowered to some extent (i.e up to 300% neighbour bonus) I did enjoy it as long as it lasted. My admittedly massive base is just super power hungry thanks to a large amount of lasers + biter attacks. 0.15.11 pretty much broke my whole power system as my reactor setup now is just not working as built anymore (1 big reactor strip, many semi long arms with plenty of heat exchangers and turbines).

I still think that the nuclear fuel is not expensive enough though!

The only other thing that really bugs me is the higher zoom from map to world-view. I used the previous "god-mode" to place many many blueprints, some of them being just large enough for that view. But now that view is about half as much as my normal maximum zoomed out view. Still a handy feature, but for me it lost its biggest selling point in being able to view a larger area.
On the contrary, fuel is plenty expensive given that typical maps do not have ore in huge abundance, and there are also high costs of entry given the need for enough ore to kick start kovarex, etc.

Try doubling up on pipes, or bring your heat exchangers in closer to your reactors. Heat pipes were never meant to carry massive amounts of heat over long distances with a single run (that was a bug).
Allyn Malventano
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malventano
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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by malventano » Tue May 16, 2017 7:04 pm

Ranakastrasz wrote:
Matthias_Wlkp wrote:
viveks711 wrote:I think it is the right call though... Nuclear power was otherwise massively overpowered.
The only thing I found somewhat overpowered with Nuclear Power was the usage of storage tanks for accumulating steam to get around their non-stop production regardless of usage.
Yea, but that is the only sane reaction to suddently having a fuel usage that is constant instead of only when needed. If you can build a buffer into it, people will do so.
Except the building of the buffer into it is specifically what the devs were counting on as part of their choice to make fuel use constant once a cycle has been started. You don't have to use large banks of steam tanks as the buffer - just a few will suffice to detect when more heat is needed. Heat pipes and additional (offline) reactors can be used to buffer the heat itself and keep fuel usage efficient at lower power levels.
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Arek87
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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by Arek87 » Tue May 16, 2017 7:06 pm

FactorioBot wrote:
  • The zoom level at which the map switches from 'map view' to 'world view' was increased.
WHY ? :( Map view lost its advantage

malventano
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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by malventano » Tue May 16, 2017 7:10 pm

Arek87 wrote:
FactorioBot wrote:
  • The zoom level at which the map switches from 'map view' to 'world view' was increased.
WHY ? :( Map view lost its advantage
I can see why they did this. If you are zoomed out fully in world view and want to view ore levels, etc, switching to map view fully zoomed in gives the same level of zoom but the advantage of viewing those stats, etc.
Allyn Malventano
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Arek87
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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by Arek87 » Tue May 16, 2017 7:15 pm

malventano wrote:
Arek87 wrote:
FactorioBot wrote:
  • The zoom level at which the map switches from 'map view' to 'world view' was increased.
WHY ? :( Map view lost its advantage
I can see why they did this. If you are zoomed out fully in world view and want to view ore levels, etc, switching to map view fully zoomed in gives the same level of zoom but the advantage of viewing those stats, etc.
But now i can't place bigger blueprints.. I don't see location of bigger blueprints relative to other buildings :(

I think if DEVS increase zoom, they should add option to main menu to choose when zoom switch to map view from terrain view.

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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by kovarex » Tue May 16, 2017 8:24 pm

viveks711 wrote:
UrbanCee wrote:
Schorty wrote:
UrbanCee wrote:Hm seems like the change to heat pipes was significant!

I had 16 central reactors (8x2) and the correct amount of heat exchangers and steam turbines running at 2.4GW before the patch (albeit with pretty long heat pipes)
Even at the most distant parts of the heat pipes the temp did not drop below 800°C

Now after the patch all of a sudden the power dropped to 800MW and the temperature of all remote heat pipes is down to 250 and lower ...

So did they tweak the heat loss over distance too?
This is exactly the same as I experience right now :(
This is a pretty tough change ... my factory has severe issues right now .. (defense breaking down) ...
I think it is the right call though... Nuclear power was otherwise massively overpowered.
It shouldn't make the efficient nuclear setups impossible, it should force you to build heat pipes shorter and branch faster.
The original idea of the whole heatpipe system was to force some kind of fractal designs, which is probably not going to happen, but this should be at least closer.
Ranakastrasz wrote:Did burner Generator equipment get fixed? Its not in the patchlog
It is going to be in the next release, the fix was done when the release of 0.15.11 was already in progress

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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by bartekltg » Tue May 16, 2017 9:10 pm

FactorioBot wrote: [*]Tweaked the way heat pipes work, mainly to make it work the same regardless order of build. (44972)
Still broken:(
Edit: It works as intended, there is (see malventano posts) just 1degree gradient. A bit unphisical for me, but it works and gives mostly good behavior.[end of edit]

I connected a reactor and "a sink" (couple pipes, 4 heat exchangesr, 8 turbines) using one, two, or three lines of pipe, ~52 tiles long.
Result after stationary state is achieved (long time + gemespeed = ...)
pipes // T near reactor // T near sink // T diff
1 692 512 180
2 624 509 115
3 601 509 92
A savefile in the attachment.
The first and second reactor both are connected with 3 pipes, but they are build in different direction. I do not see difference, so at least symmetry is working.
Assuming small errors, the gradient for 1,2,3 pipes is like 6,4,3. It doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't it works as flow = k * temperature difference? Then, for two pipes I need put only half ot the flow into one pipe, I so need two times smaller temperature gradient. Or underlying mechanic was changed entirely?

As a "bonus" (it schows something is really wrong), try cut the pipes at both ends. We get long isolated pipes with ~500degree at one end and for example 600 at the second. And they stay in in that state! Heat isn't transported, one end is just hotter.

I'm still recommend the solution I described in posts in the 4th page of that thread. Not that complex with "implic scheme", the simple one where temperature from current tick is kept so heat flow is always calculated from temperatures from current tick, not partially updated for next one.
from that post
Attachments
heattest.zip
reactors connected to sinks by 1, 2 and 3 long lines, currently near stationary state. Ingore double reactor - it powered roboports.
(4.67 MiB) Downloaded 27 times
Last edited by bartekltg on Wed May 17, 2017 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by Vykromod » Tue May 16, 2017 9:13 pm

I don't know guys, but I've just tested it and reactor that I'm using still works just about the same as before the patch. 4 cores, still produces 488MW in stress. Maybe it's just too small design or doesn't use that many heat pipes to tell the difference...

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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by hatifnatt » Tue May 16, 2017 9:18 pm

  • The zoom level at which the map switches from 'map view' to 'world view' was increased.
Same as other people I can't understand this change :( . "God-view" was a huge improvement for me, easy to place big blueprints, easy to overview big part of map. Now map's 'world view' zoom level is less (sic!) than minimum normal zoom level. IMHO 'world view' now have lost half of it's usefulness.
Please add option to select when map switches from 'map view' to 'world view'.

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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by MasterBuilder » Tue May 16, 2017 9:39 pm

hatifnatt wrote:(snip) Now map's 'world view' zoom level is less (sic!) than minimum normal zoom level. IMHO 'world view' (snip)
This.
So much this.

That view was so great for big blueprints. (And I loved seeing my factory at that level too.)

Anyone know if this level can be modded?
Give a man fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

malventano
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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by malventano » Tue May 16, 2017 9:46 pm

bartekltg wrote:
FactorioBot wrote: [*]Tweaked the way heat pipes work, mainly to make it work the same regardless order of build. (44972)
Still broken:(

I connected a reactor and "a sink" (couple pipes, 4 heat exchangesr, 8 turbines) using one, two, or three lines of pipe, ~52 tiles long.
Result after stationary state is achieved (long time + gemespeed = ...)
pipes // T near reactor // T near sink // T diff
1 692 512 180
2 624 509 115
3 601 509 92
A savefile in the attachment.
The first and second reactor both are connected with 3 pipes, but they are build in different direction. I do not see difference, so at least symmetry is working.
Assuming small errors, the gradient for 1,2,3 pipes is like 6,4,3. It doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't it works as flow = k * temperature difference? Then, for two pipes I need put only half ot the flow into one pipe, I so need two times smaller temperature gradient. Or underlying mechanic was changed entirely?

As a "bonus" (it schows something is really wrong), try cut the pipes at both ends. We get long isolated pipes with ~500degree at one end and for example 600 at the second. And they stay in in that state! Heat isn't transported, one end is just hotter.

I'm still recommend the solution I described in posts in the 4th page of that thread. Not that complex with "implic scheme", the simple one where temperature from current tick is kept so heat flow is always calculated from temperatures from current tick, not partially updated for next one.
from that post
It's not broken, you just don't understand the new mechanic (*edit* - you missed the issue of a perfect heat balance - see below). Heat pipes appear to now have a static 1C delta from pipe to pipe. Heat does not transfer unless the delta reaches that level first. Beyond that point, each pipe drops ~6.5C per tile per 100MW being transferred (don't forget to add the static 1C per tile after that calculation). Seems like a perfectly reasonable solution that does not appear broken from where I sit. 480MW can travel ~15 tiles before dropping to 500C. 1000GW = ~7 tiles (less when you consider needing to fan out to exchangers). Parallel paths assist in the heat transfer, but you have to have enough heat transfer taking place to overcome the 1C/tile thing to measure the impact properly.

For your specific save, I haven't loaded myself but from what you said I'd guess you're drawing exactly 40MW from a reactor creating 40MW. It can't heat up the rest of the way.Remove a few exchangers from your build and let the reactors climb to 999C, then put them back and you'll get the same deltas but all starting at 999C, as expected.
Last edited by malventano on Tue May 16, 2017 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Allyn Malventano
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Kirona
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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by Kirona » Tue May 16, 2017 9:49 pm

Added "create specialized sprite atlases" option to graphics settings. If checked, tile and shadow sprites won't be put into separated sprite atlases instead of the main one. This should give graphics driver more room to fit required sprites to graphics memory.
I feel like the wording here is a tad ambiguous. Checking the option to create specialized atlases... won't create specialized atlases? Also, what effect does this have on performance beyond memory usage?

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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by porcupine » Tue May 16, 2017 10:10 pm

Anybody else notice that under the train station, "read stoppped train" can be checked, assigned a variable, however when you exit/return, it's no longer clicked (however it does appear to still advertise the stopped train)? Is it just me?!

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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by MarvinCZ » Tue May 16, 2017 10:11 pm

It looks like with this build I am able to play with textures on "high" on my integrated graphics card (Intel HD 4400) without any problems (so far everything looks good).
Warning dialog that I need to have at least 2GB of video memory is still displayed though.

Does it have something to do with the sprite atlases in this release?

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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by porcupine » Tue May 16, 2017 10:35 pm

Arek87 wrote:
malventano wrote:
Arek87 wrote:
FactorioBot wrote:
  • The zoom level at which the map switches from 'map view' to 'world view' was increased.
WHY ? :( Map view lost its advantage
I can see why they did this. If you are zoomed out fully in world view and want to view ore levels, etc, switching to map view fully zoomed in gives the same level of zoom but the advantage of viewing those stats, etc.
But now i can't place bigger blueprints.. I don't see location of bigger blueprints relative to other buildings :(

I think if DEVS increase zoom, they should add option to main menu to choose when zoom switch to map view from terrain view.
Agreed, talk about a downgrade =\.

Devs, please consider revising this, a degraded zoom level is definitely not a feature in my books!

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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by Distelzombie » Tue May 16, 2017 10:48 pm

kovarex wrote:It shouldn't make the efficient nuclear setups impossible, it should force you to build heat pipes shorter and branch faster.
The original idea of the whole heatpipe system was to force some kind of fractal designs, which is probably not going to happen, but this should be at least closer.
Sorry, but it is extremely hard to reach the maximum output. Here, I build five different 8-reactor setups in the last hours: viewtopic.php?f=208&t=47556&p=275562#p275562
They all do not reach maximum either because heatpipe is suddenly too long or because steam cannot reach all turbines. :(
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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by bartekltg » Tue May 16, 2017 10:53 pm

malventano wrote: It's not broken, you just don't understand the new mechanic (*edit* - you missed the issue of a perfect heat balance - see below). Heat pipes appear to now have a static 1C delta from pipe to pipe.
Yes, this is it. When we subtract 'pipe polarization' for ~50 pipes:
([ 692-512, 624-509, 601-509] -50 ) = 130 65 42
So exactly what we expect.
130K on 50 tiles at 40MW
130 / 50 *(10/4) = 6.5K/tile at 100MW. Exactly as you said.

But now I don't understand, why. -1deg is artificial and strange, and there is easy solution that don't osculate, is symmetric and do not leave hot branches, without the constant difference and conditions. I'm not sure if this one isn't _more_ complex. For example you need 'if' statement.
malventano wrote:

Parallel paths assist in the heat transfer, but you have to have enough heat transfer taking place to overcome the 1C/tile thing to measure the impact properly.
So you think this isn't a workaround, but a balance adjustment? Then OK, gameplay before realism;-) I'm not sure. Small heat loss would be good to. Energy (temperature) is transfer out (disappears from) the pipe, then you can build longer path, but efficiency drops.
malventano wrote: I'd guess you're drawing exactly 40MW from a reactor creating 40MW. It can't heat up the rest of the way.Remove a few exchangers from your build and let the reactors climb to 999C, then put them back and you'll get the same deltas but all starting at 999C, as expected.
It don't matter. When I produce full 40MW, adding a 10 or 300 degree to every point doesn't change anything, gradients and transfers are the same. I checked:) The whole misunderstanding come from unexpected "-1degC".

Edit: My lack of understanding, part 2: If I connect two reactors and only one of them to pipes, the connected one heat only to 999degC. The -1degree rule act on reactors too? But this is only 5 pipes, I'm not taking energy, reactor still has only 999degC.

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Re: Version 0.15.11

Post by noodletron » Tue May 16, 2017 11:04 pm

mbritb wrote:
porcupine wrote:Obviously not a problem, but popping open my save from last night, I get a dialogue box, reading:

"Migrated content
Removed decoratives
red-desert-decal 34"

I'm assuming some of the decal graphics changed and what have you... Just figured I'd post here in case this was unexpected (so at least google gets an exact hit!) :)
Same issue here. It removed 135 for me.
I got the same message when I opened up my save and now I get a frame rate drop when I'm in certain desert areas. I assume where the red desert tiles were...

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