Version 0.15.12

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby tk0421 » Fri May 19, 2017 7:13 pm

Kelderek wrote:
SeaRyanC wrote:Not updating until the 0.15.10 level of map-camera zoom is restored. Placing large blueprints is far too cumbersome otherwise.


Maybe the design intent is that for large enough blueprints and construction work you should actually go to that location in person? Also it is a bit lame to make a demand like this for a feature that never existed prior to a short while ago and now you won't update until you get it exactly the way you want it. That's a poor attitude to have for features in an experimental alpha release.

tk0421 wrote:i really dislike the zoom to world level now as well. can zoom out farther in normal mode than you can in map view. this was the best feature of the new map view mode, as it allowed you to inspect things from greater distance. now its useless


Useless? That's a bit harsh. What did you do before this feature was added? It sounds to me like you're hoping for some kind of "God Mode". It makes no sense to me that the view you get from radar coverage is as good or better than what you can see in person. In my opinion it should definitely be lower quality and lower range, but that doesn't equate to being useless. You're just mad because you want to use it differently than it was intended, you want a god mode and that is not what this is for. The intent seems to be for you to get the gist of what is happening at another location and to have some small construction capability from that distance, but to have it be just as good as what you can do in person is taking it a bit too far in my mind.

Consider espionage. You always get better info from a human on the ground than from a spy satellite in orbit. This is the same concept but with radar coverage instead. If you want the best ability and access then you should have to go there in person and apart from that there are still some useful things you can do from far away using the map view. If that prevents placing ridiculously large blueprints from the map view then I am ok with that -- make your blueprints smaller or just move your lazy butt over to that spot.

If you're that desperate for a change, I'm sure someone could mod it to be the way you want it. I think the devs are on the right track for how it should be in vanilla.


harsh would imply there is some judgement implied. there isnt, its simply an honest opinion of functionality.

you open your map when you need an overview of your factory, or to make expansion plans, etc. if i can stand in a spot and simply scroll out farther than i what i can see when the map itself zooms to world then the map zoom fucntion has no use to me. which in turn... makes it, what? useless.

and as for your espionage comparison... you really proved my own point for me. the map is not about detail, its about coverage.

i like the feature, and can understand if zooming it too far is causing some performance issues or whatever, i just think its logically absurd for it to be smaller than live viewable area.

maybe i'm wrong, just my .02c
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Blackraz0r » Fri May 19, 2017 7:25 pm

Kelderek wrote:These devs are pretty awesome and I don't think they should have to stop and explain every change they make. Complaining about a lack of communication is a bit harsh -- they talk to us on a variety of things every week. Comparing them to EA-games is hitting below the belt.


Its irony, of course they are not comparable, but it kinda shocked me how they behaved after being frequently asked about the reason.

Bartimaeus wrote:that discussion does not say it will remain not-modable forever... Klonan just wrote there that it IS not moddable... is is present tense ... means NOW ... says nothing about future ... which is exactly what I said a while ago and few times already ... dev's have never said so far that they do not intend to make this option moddable ... or maybe adjustable in the settings ... but I bet they will make it moddable eventually (will means future) ... especially after this frenzy of tears


You're right, they didnt said that. as they exactly said nothing. they also said nothing about if they will say something about this later.

And yes. they dont have to explain every change in the game, as it is THIER game. but at least to give a tiny bit of information when there is a sitruation where multiple guys have complaints, would be nice.

Icould happily live with a "We wont change this BECAUSE" Then it would be sadfacebutgothroughit. but at least it would be a reaction.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Kelderek » Fri May 19, 2017 7:37 pm

tk0421 wrote:you open your map when you need an overview of your factory, or to make expansion plans, etc. if i can stand in a spot and simply scroll out farther than i what i can see when the map itself zooms to world then the map zoom fucntion has no use to me. which in turn... makes it, what? useless.


In the case you described sure, but I don't think that was the intention of this feature. I'm pretty sure it is more about seeing things in places where your character is NOT in the area. If there is a biter attack at an outpost and you want to see if your defenses are holding up ok but you're at your main base then the map view can now show you more info when you zoom in (assuming radar coverage) without you needing to visit that outpost. In that example, the amount your character can zoom is not relevant to the amount the map can zoom as your character is not there.

Being able to see the contents of a chest from a few thousand tiles away is far from being useless. Wondering why your iron seems a bit low? Go look at your outpost and watch the time it takes to load up a train. Wondering why you haven't seen a train in a while? Use the map to find a deadlock and zoom in to see any errors in signal placement. This feature is still plenty useful in it's current state.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby jarcionek » Fri May 19, 2017 7:37 pm

Blackraz0r wrote:as it is THIER game.


It is their game, but developing it is also their only job and they need to pay their bills, which means someone has to buy this game, which means they develop it for US.

Factorio is undoubtedly one of the best games of the last few years, but the recent developers' behaviour is quite disappointing. They will point us out multiple times that it is intentional, that they don't commit code by accident etc. - so they clearly read our comments here - but answering a simple question that was asked already a dozen of times, turns out to be too difficult.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Klonan » Fri May 19, 2017 7:49 pm

To quote myself from another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=47725&start=20#p277742
Klonan wrote:After playing with it we decided that the switch was too far out
When players would try to inspect the actual map, to see map tags, labels, to read ore patches etc. it would switch to zoom to world before being able to see the map information.

This information, such as turret range, electric network visualization, is more important at this specific zoom than the zoom to world, so we moved the switch point

We are still listening to feedback and gathering opinion on the perfect switch point, but we feel this is a move in the right direction,
That isn't to say it won't be moved out somewhat in the future, but for now we aren't going to revert to the old zoom level

There were also some graphical and rendering issues with the old zoom level
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Taipion » Fri May 19, 2017 9:05 pm

Klonan wrote:To quote myself from another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=47725&start=20#p277742
Klonan wrote:There were also some graphical and rendering issues with the old zoom level

Like with...belts? Yea that looked kinda bad. :D
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby porcupine » Fri May 19, 2017 9:57 pm

Klonan wrote:To quote myself from another thread:

[...]
[/quote]

I for one welcome our new robot overlo... oh wait, no.

I for one appreciate this explanation (I hadn't seen the other thread). The questions here were turning ugly, and for me it was more a curiosity question (the earlier fix to the zoom level, took it out of "*@#!# awkwardly close" level for me and my over-sized monitor).

I'd very much welcome more static on the remote viewing. IMHO it should involve research, and/or relate to distance from the view point. The fact half the time I can't tell if I'm looking at my direct view, or map view, simply says it's not anywhere near grainy enough (and let's face it, we all love more research options!). I'd love to see viewing options "unlocked" (and have no issue with de-buffs/etc. to get to the point we're at).
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby quadrox » Fri May 19, 2017 10:55 pm

Klonan wrote:After playing with it we decided that the switch was too far out
When players would try to inspect the actual map, to see map tags, labels, to read ore patches etc. it would switch to zoom to world before being able to see the map information.

This information, such as turret range, electric network visualization, is more important at this specific zoom than the zoom to world, so we moved the switch point

We are still listening to feedback and gathering opinion on the perfect switch point, but we feel this is a move in the right direction,
That isn't to say it won't be moved out somewhat in the future, but for now we aren't going to revert to the old zoom level

There were also some graphical and rendering issues with the old zoom level


Well, at least it's an explanation, thank you kindly sir :)

I know this is more work, but could we perhaps get an option/setting for us players who preferred the old map zoom? I don't care about graphical glitches either, I'd rather live with that then this low-res map :/
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Nova » Fri May 19, 2017 11:19 pm

I was pretty annoyed to see no explanation why the map zoom feature was changed. I'm pretty okay with the change, but having no explanation was the bad part. You solved that, so thank you. :)
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Blackraz0r » Sat May 20, 2017 12:14 am

Nova wrote:I was pretty annoyed to see no explanation why the map zoom feature was changed. I'm pretty okay with the change, but having no explanation was the bad part. You solved that, so thank you. :)


same here.

This is a reasonable consideration.

would it also be possible to activate the map features in mapview ? like having the turret overlay in the mapview ?

I also never had the explained problems so i never thought that could be the reason for this change. Thank you for the explanation. :)
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Bartimaeus » Sat May 20, 2017 12:48 am

oh how little was needed to calm the tits down.... unbelievable :D
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Blackraz0r » Sat May 20, 2017 12:59 am

Bartimaeus wrote:oh how little was needed to calm the tits down.... unbelievable :D


Just as i said.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby loganb » Sat May 20, 2017 3:07 am

I'm not sure how it worked before 0.15.11, but I was playing with reactor control using the circuit network. The idea was to have a bank of accumulators and when as they discharged, fuel would get loaded into progressively more reactors. For example, at 90% reactor 1 would get fuel, at 80% reactor 2, etc.

With the current way the heat pipes work, however, it doesn't seem practical for three reasons:
1) Heat drains out of the reactor and pipes verrry slowly making the feedback time very looong
2) When the heat pipes reach 500C, the steam engines drop to zero output in only a few seconds
3) Single quantities of fuel can't be loaded into the reactor (since the number of fuel elements in the reactor cannot be sensed)

I'm not sure exactly what leads to the best gameplay, but I think it would mostly be enough if (2) were solved and steam output/power output fell off more gradually as temperature declines. Just a thought.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby porcupine » Sat May 20, 2017 3:31 am

loganb wrote:3) Single quantities of fuel can't be loaded into the reactor (since the number of fuel elements in the reactor cannot be sensed)


I'd say you're wrong there. Since the reactors have a very specific/consistent burn rate on fuel (and you know when accumulators are in their charge cycle), I'd say you could easily determine how much fuel is in a reactor (when starting from 0, and presumably only adding 1 fuel at a time, in increments/timings that align with the reactors burn rates).
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Wakaba-chan » Sat May 20, 2017 10:08 am

quadrox wrote:
Klonan wrote:After playing with it we decided that the switch was too far out
When players would try to inspect the actual map, to see map tags, labels, to read ore patches etc. it would switch to zoom to world before being able to see the map information.

This information, such as turret range, electric network visualization, is more important at this specific zoom than the zoom to world, so we moved the switch point

We are still listening to feedback and gathering opinion on the perfect switch point, but we feel this is a move in the right direction,
That isn't to say it won't be moved out somewhat in the future, but for now we aren't going to revert to the old zoom level

There were also some graphical and rendering issues with the old zoom level


Well, at least it's an explanation, thank you kindly sir :)

I know this is more work, but could we perhaps get an option/setting for us players who preferred the old map zoom? I don't care about graphical glitches either, I'd rather live with that then this low-res map :/

Agreed. Since it's not balance-related feature, maybe it should allowed to be changed by player? Because there really are situations when I need to watch some details on the map (like electric connections), and yet again there are situations when I'd prefer a large-scale world-view (for example, to place large blueprints or examine some large facilities).

EDIT: Maybe there should be some button or hotkey in map mode to switch it? Like it will be available at some certain zoom and from this point it would be player-dependent to see map-view or world-view.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby jojo_steed » Sat May 20, 2017 11:46 am

loganb wrote:I'm not sure how it worked before 0.15.11, but I was playing with reactor control using the circuit network. The idea was to have a bank of accumulators and when as they discharged, fuel would get loaded into progressively more reactors. For example, at 90% reactor 1 would get fuel, at 80% reactor 2, etc.

With the current way the heat pipes work, however, it doesn't seem practical for three reasons:
1) Heat drains out of the reactor and pipes verrry slowly making the feedback time very looong
2) When the heat pipes reach 500C, the steam engines drop to zero output in only a few seconds
3) Single quantities of fuel can't be loaded into the reactor (since the number of fuel elements in the reactor cannot be sensed)

I'm not sure exactly what leads to the best gameplay, but I think it would mostly be enough if (2) were solved and steam output/power output fell off more gradually as temperature declines. Just a thought.


Unless you are doing it for the challenge of designing a nuclear system that uses accumulators for buffer storage, I would recommend switching to using a buffer storage of steam tanks as this totally sidesteps the lag time issues with cool down/warm up and steam generation.

It's also worth noting that reactors don't produce a spent fuel cell until after the fuel is used up. With read hand contents on an inserter removing the spent fuel cell, it is possible to pulse a signal to the fuel loading inserter to load one fuel cell each time a spent fuel cell is removed. Couple this with setting the inserter removing the fuel cell to only activate when the accumulators are below a certain charge level and you can ensure that fuel is only loaded into the reactor one cell at a time, when necessary and there is enough spare accumulator capacity to store the energy produced.

Having the fuel loaded on removal of an empty fuel cell does, of course, mean that the player must manually load the first fuel cell after the reactor has been placed. I see that as useful since it will mean your reactor won't start running before bots have finished placing the rest of the setup.

Although it does sound neat to having the reactors kick in sequentially as the load requirement increases, it's worth considering that it will remove a lot of the efficiency gained from neighbour bonuses - reactors only get neighbour bonus from active reactors because if the majority of the time your power usage only causes one or two reactors to kick in, they will be running far less efficiency than if a block of 4 or 8 kicked in at once.

Wakaba-chan wrote:Agreed. Since it's not balance-related feature, maybe it should allowed to be changed by player? Because there really are situations when I need to watch some details on the map (like electric connections), and yet again there are situations when I'd prefer a large-scale world-view (for example, to place large blueprints or examine some large facilities).

EDIT: Maybe there should be some button or hotkey in map mode to switch it? Like it will be available at some certain zoom and from this point it would be player-dependent to see map-view or world-view.


I agree, and I've written a larger post in the same vein, on the thread Klonans quote originated from, with the suggestion that the switch point could be at a different level depending on whether you were zooming in from map mode or zooming out from world view mode.

I also don't think i've seen anyone mention that its not just the placement of large blueprints that the larger scale world view helped with, but also for me the more important part was being able to more easily design those large blueprints with ghost images in the first place.

EDIT: formatting/typo
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby loganb » Sat May 20, 2017 5:36 pm

It's also worth noting that reactors don't produce a spent fuel cell until after the fuel is used up. With read hand contents on an inserter removing the spent fuel cell, it is possible to pulse a signal to the fuel loading inserter to load one fuel cell each time a spent fuel cell is removed. Couple this with setting the inserter removing the fuel cell to only activate when the accumulators are below a certain charge level and you can ensure that fuel is only loaded into the reactor one cell at a time, when necessary and there is enough spare accumulator capacity to store the energy produced.


Of course, great idea! Everyone has their line on what's a reasonable implementation hurdle, but this seems like it should work without being excessively complicated. I almost posted a suggestion that game employ economic dispatch (use nuke power before coal power), but then realized I could implement it myself. :)

Although it does sound neat to having the reactors kick in sequentially as the load requirement increases, it's worth considering that it will remove a lot of the efficiency gained from neighbour bonuses - reactors only get neighbour bonus from active reactors because if the majority of the time your power usage only causes one or two reactors to kick in, they will be running far less efficiency than if a block of 4 or 8 kicked in at once.


I thought about this, but if you're only using 1.5 reactors worth of power, there's no efficiency gained from running 4 reactors and then just wasting the heat. The accumulator farm necessary to store the output of 4 reactors would be insane, I'm guessing steam tanks would be similarly unwieldy.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby malventano » Sat May 20, 2017 6:36 pm

loganb wrote:
It's also worth noting that reactors don't produce a spent fuel cell until after the fuel is used up. With read hand contents on an inserter removing the spent fuel cell, it is possible to pulse a signal to the fuel loading inserter to load one fuel cell each time a spent fuel cell is removed. Couple this with setting the inserter removing the fuel cell to only activate when the accumulators are below a certain charge level and you can ensure that fuel is only loaded into the reactor one cell at a time, when necessary and there is enough spare accumulator capacity to store the energy produced.


Of course, great idea! Everyone has their line on what's a reasonable implementation hurdle, but this seems like it should work without being excessively complicated. I almost posted a suggestion that game employ economic dispatch (use nuke power before coal power), but then realized I could implement it myself. :)

Although it does sound neat to having the reactors kick in sequentially as the load requirement increases, it's worth considering that it will remove a lot of the efficiency gained from neighbour bonuses - reactors only get neighbour bonus from active reactors because if the majority of the time your power usage only causes one or two reactors to kick in, they will be running far less efficiency than if a block of 4 or 8 kicked in at once.


I thought about this, but if you're only using 1.5 reactors worth of power, there's no efficiency gained from running 4 reactors and then just wasting the heat. The accumulator farm necessary to store the output of 4 reactors would be insane, I'm guessing steam tanks would be similarly unwieldy.


- Agreed on accumulator charge / discharge rate means you would need an incredible amount of them.
- If you work your steam tanks properly, you can buffer a worst case transient (0% to 100% with the plant fully cooled to 500C) with only 15 tanks full of steam on a 480MW plant. The key is triggering the fuel cycle as early as possible and using pumps to ensure the tanks closest to the steam turbines maintain sufficient volume. For those busting out their calculators to doubt this, remember that while the tanks are emptying, the reactors are heating up and heat exchangers are coming online to counter the level drop. I've tested this multiple times on a scaleable design I'm working on - it holds true beyond 4.6GW (add 5 tanks for each +160MW). Realize that if you have too much thermal mass attached (heat pipes, offline reactors, etc), you may need additional tanks to counter the warmup delay. My 5-tank example above is based on 48 heat pipes and 16 heat exchangers per 160MW.
- I'm packaging the scalable design that uses these principles for release. Currently documenting it all.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Aeternus » Sat May 20, 2017 7:50 pm

sebastian wrote:
ASB44 wrote:The zoom-to-world view distance is not as wide as the player max view distance.
Its about 80%~ of width the current player max view has. ...


Yes - sorry but this change in map view is really stupid. :roll: I want map view from 0.15.10 back again. This was a great feature!

Or a configurable setting for the distance which switches from detailed view to basic. Or heck, a toggle key to force detailed view from any distance, would work too!
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby MrDrummer » Sun May 21, 2017 10:35 am

How does one go into "filter mode" when holding the deconstruction planner?!?!

Edit: right click it.
Last edited by MrDrummer on Sun May 21, 2017 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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