Version 0.15.12

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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Bartimaeus » Fri May 19, 2017 11:55 am

Kelderek wrote:If you're that desperate for a change, I'm sure someone could mod it to be the way you want it. I think the devs are on the right track for how it should be in vanilla.


I totally agree with Kelderek ... You got spoiled by slightly unintentionally overpowered feature that got rebalanced to more acurately reflect the original idea ... if they want vanilla to be more challenging then they do it that way ... and if you are lazy then get a mod for it, as you did with all the other things so far before they were included in a vanilla because they were seen as a useful feature ... but god mode in vanilla was definitely not intended so stop crying and get a mod

SeaRyanC wrote:It would be awesome if the devs would actually talk about what the design intent is when they make posts like "It was not working as intended before" so I could develop a mental model of what's expected and what's not. klonan and rseding91 seem to like to say "it's working (or wasn't working) as intended" without actually speaking to what the intent is. Same thing with the previous bad heat pipe behavior, it's just "It's working as intended" - the intent is what, exactly?

to rebalance the new additions to the game ...

also the entries in changelog are most likely created automatically from commits of features that normally dont expect essays on full explanations ... for that there is the rest of the forum ... where for example if asked by many users like now ... you would expect a more detailed explanation ... but maybe they have a better work to do (fixing more bugs) than explaining to the players who are crying that the game is too hard why the game CREATORS decided to make a game harder
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby malventano » Fri May 19, 2017 1:03 pm

jarcionek wrote:Let me remind you that the game is about automation. You don't do the same micro-management over and over again, instead you design small component, copy it into a blueprint and paste multiple times, then create bigger component and so on... After a few hundred hours on a single map, you will have a factory that takes a couple of minutes to go from one end to the other - and I am not talking here about mines or a solar plant.

I have done a few hundred hours of running around the factory - that's enough, now I want to expand it by pasting bigger and bigger blueprints and the new map was perfect for it until it was drastically made worse for no clear reason.

Do you think it's overpowered? So let's turn it into technologies:
  • one for enabling the `world view` on the map and decreasing the zoom level at which you can still see the world on the map
  • one for reducing the noise level on the map - let's make the noise annoying at the beginning, just like it was in 0.15.0 (or maybe even more annoying than that)
  • one for maximum distance from the player where the map can still switch to `world view` - this one can be infinite research, although I would make the cost linear, not exponential

This way it wouldn't be available early in the game - so you still have to do a lot of running - but as you progress through the game it would allow you to do more and more remotely.

A thousand times this. That is a great idea.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby malventano » Fri May 19, 2017 1:05 pm

impetus maximus wrote:boy, lots of people bitching about the blueprint from map view thing.
in my opinion you shouldn't even be able to lay a blueprint in that mode. feels like cheating.
get off your ass, get over there and lay it yourself. :lol:

Some of what is frustrating folks is that the world view becomes restrictive in late game as you create larger and larger blueprints. The previous map view change opened up many more possibilities there.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby malventano » Fri May 19, 2017 1:08 pm

Kelderek wrote:I think what you guys are asking for on the map view simply is not appropriate for the vanilla game.

Your argument would be valid if zoom levels were moddable. If they were, I would have already made a mod that adds research-based extensions to radar view.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby jarcionek » Fri May 19, 2017 2:06 pm

Bartimaeus wrote:
Kelderek wrote:If you're that desperate for a change, I'm sure someone could mod it to be the way you want it. I think the devs are on the right track for how it should be in vanilla.


I totally agree with Kelderek ... You got spoiled by slightly unintentionally overpowered feature that got rebalanced to more acurately reflect the original idea ... if they want vanilla to be more challenging then they do it that way ... and if you are lazy then get a mod for it, as you did with all the other things so far before they were included in a vanilla because they were seen as a useful feature ... but god mode in vanilla was definitely not intended so stop crying and get a mod

SeaRyanC wrote:It would be awesome if the devs would actually talk about what the design intent is when they make posts like "It was not working as intended before" so I could develop a mental model of what's expected and what's not. klonan and rseding91 seem to like to say "it's working (or wasn't working) as intended" without actually speaking to what the intent is. Same thing with the previous bad heat pipe behavior, it's just "It's working as intended" - the intent is what, exactly?

to rebalance the new additions to the game ...

also the entries in changelog are most likely created automatically from commits of features that normally dont expect essays on full explanations ... for that there is the rest of the forum ... where for example if asked by many users like now ... you would expect a more detailed explanation ... but maybe they have a better work to do (fixing more bugs) than explaining to the players who are crying that the game is too hard why the game CREATORS decided to make a game harder


They haven't made the game harder, but more boring by forcing you into doing the same tedious tasks.

The best thing about Factorio is that you don't do the same things all the time, you go bigger and bigger. In first hour of gameplay you are happy to have 100 iron plates on you, after 5 hours you are happy with 2 full chests, after 100 hours you look at your storage area and think "damn, I have 7 million copper plates, but only 3 million iron plates".

If you think that removing an automation is making a game harder, here are a few more suggestions:
- let's remove radars, you can always go and inspect damages yourself
- let's remove alarms, you can always just walk around regularly to check what needs fixing
- let's remove a car, you can always just walk
- let's remove construction bots, you can always place the buildings yourself
- let's remove conveyor belts, you can always just move the items yourself
- finally, let's add an achievement "send a rocket without building any assembly machines" and you will have your "hard game"
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Blackraz0r » Fri May 19, 2017 2:22 pm

malventano wrote:
Kelderek wrote:I think what you guys are asking for on the map view simply is not appropriate for the vanilla game.

Your argument would be valid if zoom levels were moddable. If they were, I would have already made a mod that adds research-based extensions to radar view.


Oh that would be great but nope. They decided to not make it modable.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Kelderek » Fri May 19, 2017 2:24 pm

malventano wrote:
Kelderek wrote:I think what you guys are asking for on the map view simply is not appropriate for the vanilla game.

Your argument would be valid if zoom levels were moddable. If they were, I would have already made a mod that adds research-based extensions to radar view.


Then fight to get that change instead, to allow it to be modded. Some things should be in vanilla and some should be in mods, this is the latter, so ask politely for the ability to mod in this type of change.

jarcionek wrote:They haven't made the game harder, but more boring by forcing you into doing the same tedious tasks.


Let me ask this: do you think there should be any limit at all on blueprint size? From the way this discussion is going it looks like we're headed to a place where you can start up a game and plop down a single blueprint for your entire factory and then say "Eureka! I did it!" and be done. Having a limit on the size of a blueprint is entirely reasonable -- especially in the vanilla game, currently this seems to be linked to the zoom levels and what is possible from those views, both in person and in the map view.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Blackraz0r » Fri May 19, 2017 2:33 pm

Kelderek wrote:Let me ask this: do you think there should be any limit at all on blueprint size? From the way this discussion is going it looks like we're headed to a place where you can start up a game and plop down a single blueprint for your entire factory and then say "Eureka! I did it!" and be done. Having a limit on the size of a blueprint is entirely reasonable -- especially in the vanilla game, currently this seems to be linked to the zoom levels and what is possible from those views, both in person and in the map view.


Wich is totaly intended. Kovarex tols us a while ago in a FFF That he is thinking about a scenario where you have always the same map. speedrun. the better your prints are, the better the speedrun.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Taipion » Fri May 19, 2017 2:36 pm

Blackraz0r wrote:
Kelderek wrote:Let me ask this: do you think there should be any limit at all on blueprint size? From the way this discussion is going it looks like we're headed to a place where you can start up a game and plop down a single blueprint for your entire factory and then say "Eureka! I did it!" and be done. Having a limit on the size of a blueprint is entirely reasonable -- especially in the vanilla game, currently this seems to be linked to the zoom levels and what is possible from those views, both in person and in the map view.


Wich is totaly intended. Kovarex tols us a while ago in a FFF That he is thinking about a scenario where you have always the same map. speedrun. the better your prints are, the better the speedrun.


There is a limit to blueprint size?

You know you can move while drawing the rectangle to select things for a blueprint, right?
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Blackraz0r » Fri May 19, 2017 2:59 pm

No there is not. He just had the great idea to limit the automation capabilities of this automation game. Lets pray there is no dev who think "mhhh thats nice, lets try out to deautomate the game a bit more". :D
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Taipion » Fri May 19, 2017 3:10 pm

Blackraz0r wrote:No there is not. He just had the great idea to limit the automation capabilities of this automation game. Lets pray there is no dev who think "mhhh thats nice, lets try out to deautomate the game a bit more". :D


Yea, about as good as "oh no people will place one blueprint at the start and be done with it", especially as you have, at the start, all those items and things required to build them already in your inventory, right? :D
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Bartimaeus » Fri May 19, 2017 4:52 pm

malventano wrote:
Kelderek wrote:I think what you guys are asking for on the map view simply is not appropriate for the vanilla game.

Your argument would be valid if zoom levels were moddable. If they were, I would have already made a mod that adds research-based extensions to radar view.

Just be patient ... the feature has been added only recently ... and a rebalancing change like few days ago ... I am sure it will get modded soon ... just stop crying everybody.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby malventano » Fri May 19, 2017 4:56 pm

Bartimaeus wrote:
malventano wrote:
Kelderek wrote:I think what you guys are asking for on the map view simply is not appropriate for the vanilla game.

Your argument would be valid if zoom levels were moddable. If they were, I would have already made a mod that adds research-based extensions to radar view.

Just be patient ... the feature has been added only recently ... and a rebalancing change like few days ago ... I am sure it will get modded soon ... just stop crying everybody.

Zoom levels are not moddable.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Bartimaeus » Fri May 19, 2017 5:01 pm

jarcionek wrote:If you think that removing an automation is making a game harder, here are a few more suggestions:
- let's remove radars, you can always go and inspect damages yourself
- let's remove alarms, you can always just walk around regularly to check what needs fixing
- let's remove a car, you can always just walk
- let's remove construction bots, you can always place the buildings yourself
- let's remove conveyor belts, you can always just move the items yourself
- finally, let's add an achievement "send a rocket without building any assembly machines" and you will have your "hard game"


You're being ridiculous ...
using your logic I bet you've played Factorio only once... you enabled recording replays ... and now that it has been done you only watch the game replay itself forever because it's no fun repeating the same mundane task if it can be automated right? ... do you even listen to yourself? or do you think you are funny?

I play factorio because I think its fun to be always finding new ways of overcoming challenges ... I played the game on standard 1080p monitor and it was fine ... I recently bought a 2K monitor and I think its surely great to have a bigger display which makes me see more space ... but I can imagine that if I had a 4K display I would see waaaaay waaaay too much than is realistic and with a longreach mod I would not have to ever move ... whats the point of having a character then? ... oh right I could just play sandbox scenario in a godmode can't I right?

If you want to build massive bases like that use sandbox ....
If you want to play as a character ... live with the challenges it comes with.

malventano wrote:Zoom levels are not moddable.

what part of
Bartimaeus wrote:Just be patient ... I am sure it will get modded soon
have you not understood?
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Blackraz0r » Fri May 19, 2017 5:47 pm

Bartimaeus wrote:
malventano wrote:Zoom levels are not moddable.

what part of
Bartimaeus wrote:Just be patient ... I am sure it will get modded soon
have you not understood?


What part of NOT MODABLE have you not understood?
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby houkime » Fri May 19, 2017 5:53 pm

For me Factorio, especially modded Factorio, was always more about calculating and designing. It's also quite fun when, for example, mod allows some not obvious infinite loops and you can design a giant generator that outputs something out of nothing, and then refine the design.
Or when you can realistically generate something literally from air and water, although via some very complex chain of reactions and cycles.
It is also about optimizing your playthrough, especially in MP, employing new designs and such.
And when you can do it in the skin of your character, starting from scratch and roleplaying a bit, it is cool.

I don't think BP size should have any limit.
Building stuff you have already built is boring.

I actually think that even in early game it should be possible to quickly fill in your blueprints from inventory without bots.
For example if I could just press Shift+LMB to fill a ghost directly under my cursor (and in placing range), or hold it an just run filling everything my cursor encounters, that would be great.
Just like your usual placing while running, but with filling ghosts. Very little change, but so much difference.
Because, you know, building smelters in MP... they don't really change much...
Last edited by houkime on Fri May 19, 2017 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Koub » Fri May 19, 2017 5:54 pm

Please people, chill. There is always room for calm debate.
However, at the end, the devs will do what they think is best. They've done pretty well so far, give them the credit for that.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Blackraz0r » Fri May 19, 2017 6:11 pm

Well i waited for today FFF hoping that maybe now we will get to hear a reason for the stepback changes of the mapview.

And got dispointed.

There is still the fact that the map act wierd. As you can see only 80% of what you can see when in normal mode.
Wich is totaly intentional

I cant understand why the devs just try to avoid the topic. I mean, i never expirienced a behavier like this from the devs of factorio. Just ignoring the Questions about why and if it could be optional or adjustable. Like if they hat a training course by EA-Games in how to interact with a community. This is not what one would expect from wube.

I really thought they may talk about that change and the reasons in todays FFF, or at least something like: "Stay tunes guys, this feature will be adjustet in the future" Or like " This was neccesary because we might implement something that interacts with the map." Some schort explanation that is less worthless that " This is intentional because we don't change code without a reason"

This fearful silence from the devs lead to interesting theories, wich could be avoided with a short explanation like above.

Did they fucked something up with the map?, do they just dont care? is there another feature maybe research-based stuff for the map coming? Are they still having discussions about this internally?
And why the decission to not make it modable, to definatly deny the players the possibility to change the mapview back into the old state?

Koub wrote:Please people, chill. There is always room for calm debate.
However, at the end, the devs will do what they think is best. They've done pretty well so far, give them the credit for that.


Of Course they will do, like they ever did. But a minimal explanataion or at least a hint that there will be an explanation soon would be nice. Instead of "Deal with it"
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Kelderek » Fri May 19, 2017 6:43 pm

Blackraz0r wrote:~snip~


You're really determined to make a mountain out of a molehill here. We're talking about a feature which did not exist not too long ago and was then altered and in it's current form still offers you a lot more than what you had available in 0.14. Why is further explanation from the devs so essential? You make it sound like the entire future of this game will hinge on this one feature, but in reality this game involves so much more. I imagine they did not include it in today's FFF because they already made a post about something else (discussing the UI on the whole is a much larger and more important topic than a single feature).

These devs are pretty awesome and I don't think they should have to stop and explain every change they make. Complaining about a lack of communication is a bit harsh -- they talk to us on a variety of things every week. Comparing them to EA-games is hitting below the belt.
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Re: Version 0.15.12

Postby Bartimaeus » Fri May 19, 2017 6:48 pm

Blackraz0r wrote:And why the decission to not make it modable, to definatly deny the players the possibility to change the mapview back into the old state?


that discussion does not say it will remain not-modable forever... Klonan just wrote there that it IS not moddable... is is present tense ... means NOW ... says nothing about future ... which is exactly what I said a while ago and few times already ... dev's have never said so far that they do not intend to make this option moddable ... or maybe adjustable in the settings ... but I bet they will make it moddable eventually (will means future) ... especially after this frenzy of tears
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