""Factorio 2""

Things that are not directly connected with Factorio.
blazespinnaker
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by blazespinnaker »

Building in 3 dimensions would be very cool, if that is what is meant by 3d. I think that might be a bit overwhelming for some, however.

But 3d graphics and animations for the sake of replacing our imagination seems like a rather large and unfortunate waste of game development budget.

That sort of stuff is everywhere and I think the video game community is maturing to the realization that it's just unnecessary bloatware when it comes to imaginative play. It's like - we don't know how to innovate, so let's just add better graphics so our players don't have to think as much.

Think about this - Map mode is super awesome, and yet the graphics are throw backs to the 80s.
Last edited by blazespinnaker on Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by Jap2.0 »

AmericanPatriot wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:31 pm
Jap2.0 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:30 pm
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:11 pm
I’d like to see a more performant multiplayer, one that allows a server to do simulation for the client.
The first is almost certainly never going to happen
Never say never.

As for “major changes”, part of the reason for factorio 2 would be to pay the devs for all the work they would do. They can’t just add updates forever.
The feasibility of non-lockstep multiplayer would necessitate either

1. Significantly higher (i.e. several orders of magnitude, enough to send pretty much the entire game state every tick) internet bandwidth AND
(2a. Significantly worse latency hiding OR
2b. Simulating a significant portion of the game to hide latency anyway, negating many benefits of server-side computation)

OR

3. A massive simplification of Factorio so that it loses most of its complexity and is no longer the game we all came to know and appreciate. (You think the oil changes were bad, and know how some of the community reacted to that? This would be far, far more than that...)

OR

4. Very significant graphics capabilities on the server (à la a streaming service) - which would be difficult both because graphics cards are not especially common in servers and are generally on the expensive side, and this would likely have to be enough to render the game for each person connected to the server, making very large servers almost impossible AND
5. Bad latency AND
6. Significantly higher bandwidth requirements (enough to stream a high quality video)
Last edited by Jap2.0 on Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by AmericanPatriot »

Jap2.0 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:44 pm
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:31 pm
Jap2.0 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:30 pm
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:11 pm
I’d like to see a more performant multiplayer, one that allows a server to do simulation for the client.
The first is almost certainly never going to happen
Never say never.

As for “major changes”, part of the reason for factorio 2 would be to pay the devs for all the work they would do. They can’t just add updates forever.
The feasibility of non-lockstep multiplayer would necessitate either

1. Significantly higher (i.e. several orders of magnitude) internet bandwidth AND
(2a. Significantly worse latency hiding OR
2b. Simulating a significant portion of the game to hide latency anyway, negating many benefits of server-side computation)

OR

3. A massive simplification of Factorio so that it loses most of its complexity and is no longer the game we all came to know and appreciate. (You think the oil changes were bad, and know how some of the community reacted to that? This would be far, far more than that...)

OR

4. Very significant graphics capabilities on the server (à la a streaming service) - which would be difficult both because graphics cards are not especially common in servers and are generally on the expensive side AND
5. Bad latency AND
6. Significantly higher bandwidth requirements
Or some sort of vanilla clusterio
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by Jap2.0 »

AmericanPatriot wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:45 pm
Jap2.0 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:44 pm
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:31 pm
Jap2.0 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:30 pm
AmericanPatriot wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:11 pm
I’d like to see a more performant multiplayer, one that allows a server to do simulation for the client.
Or some sort of vanilla clusterio
That's not the server doing the simulation for the client. That's teleportation between multiple servers, which is kind of moving the goalposts; the client still simulates the full server they're on and has performance limits. Furthermore that has similar server-side bottlenecks (I saw something somewhere about sum UPS with multiple instances running on one computer somewhere but I can't find it now - anyway, it's pretty quick diminishing returns), and I don't think it's reasonable to expect most people to have multiple servers lying around.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by AmericanPatriot »

Jap2.0 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:38 pm
...
I don’t care how it is done, as long as it works.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by Jap2.0 »

AmericanPatriot wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:41 pm
I don’t care how it is done, as long as it works.
Famous last words

More seriously: wanting something that just works and wanting an elaborate Clusterio setup are far from the same thing.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

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blazespinnaker wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:40 pm
Building in 3 dimensions would be very cool
Playing "Factory Town" convinced me (by being a confusing multi-layered counter-example) that single-layer building with a top-down perspective is a requirement for any good management game, not a limitation. With several layers above each other it just becomes more and more impossible to see at a glance what is actually happening. It also makes interacting with the game significantly more complicated and denies the player a sense of "total overview/understanding". Minecraft + Fortresscraft (and others i haven't played) show that 3D factories work somewhat okay-ish from a first-person perspective, but that can't ever reach the scale that Factorio does because of - again - a perspective induced lack of overview.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

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blazespinnaker wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:40 pm
Building in 3 dimensions would be very cool, if that is what is meant by 3d. I think that might be a bit overwhelming for some, however.

But 3d graphics and animations for the sake of replacing our imagination seems like a rather large and unfortunate waste of game development budget.

That sort of stuff is everywhere and I think the video game community is maturing to the realization that it's just unnecessary bloatware when it comes to imaginative play. It's like - we don't know how to innovate, so let's just add better graphics so our players don't have to think as much.

Think about this - Map mode is super awesome, and yet the graphics are throw backs to the 80s.
3d is Satisfactory and factorio 2 well what should be changed because there!!!!! I would prefer it if the developers put their heart and soul into it and add optimizations etc. There are enough possibilities but that are their decisions as far as that is concerned.

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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by blazespinnaker »

eradicator wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:17 am
blazespinnaker wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:40 pm
Building in 3 dimensions would be very cool
Playing "Factory Town" convinced me (by being a confusing multi-layered counter-example) that single-layer building with a top-down perspective is a requirement for any good management game, not a limitation. With several layers above each other it just becomes more and more impossible to see at a glance what is actually happening. It also makes interacting with the game significantly more complicated and denies the player a sense of "total overview/understanding". Minecraft + Fortresscraft (and others i haven't played) show that 3D factories work somewhat okay-ish from a first-person perspective, but that can't ever reach the scale that Factorio does because of - again - a perspective induced lack of overview.
Well, what Factorio lacks is proper encapsulation. There are blueprints, but it's really more copy paste encapsulation.

If we had encapsulation, the ability to create "meta assemblers", than I think it could help bring such things as 3d factory building to a manageable level.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

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blazespinnaker wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:04 pm
If we had encapsulation, the ability to create "meta assemblers", than I think it could help bring such things as 3d factory building to a manageable level.
I think those are two very different problems. Meta assemblers would just increase the order of magnitude of the numbers you deal with, which has no influence on game play mechanics. Modpacks have shown that faster assemblers don't reduce physical factory size, and i doubt more complex assemblers would be different. Physical factory "spread" is limited by UPS not complexity. Thus meta assemblers wouldn't solve the inherit bad overview problem of 3D. Infact i think they'd create their own overview problems because - just like factorissimo - they'd have the same visual representation for completely different functions.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by blazespinnaker »

Well, I was sort of thinking that a single 3d vertical building could be turned into a 'meta assembler'. In that way, you maintain your 2d over view. The 3d part just lets you invent interesting assemblers.

There's some interesting opportunities for scale here as well. At some point after it's proven it's capability via processing input into output, Factorio doesn't need to simulate the innards of the meta assembler, especially when you're more in 2d overview mode.

Of course, you can always zoom back in and improve it if that's your interest, at which point the game would resume simulating the details. Capturing and enabling this experience smoothly so it doesn't seem like different games would be tricky, but I suppose worth it.

When you think about it, you can envision many of the assemblers / plants in Factorio as complex 3d buildings doing processing. Wube could translate some of those into this concept, either for us to tinker with or use as inspiration.

3D can be difficult for many people though, spatially, and perhaps not so much fun. Frustrating enough dealing with those spaghetti underground belts in 2d :)

I'm also a big biter / PVE fan, and I don't really see how that all plays into this, at least not in a way that I find impressive and up to the standards of innovation that Wube has shown.

Factorio with FPS glued on would be very depressing. I think I lasted about 5 seconds watching a satisfactory youtube video before I had to turn it off. It's really that horrid to me. It felt like someone was purposely working very hard trying to demean and degrade the truly novel and creative concept that Factorio is. For what purpose, I don't know. To destroy it was all I could come up with.

And this is coming from someone who owns pretty much every VR headset made in the last 5 years.

Adding 3d, just because, has wrought a tremendous amount of damage in modern technological play. All too often it's been done as a way to replace rather than enhance the imagination we all have and should use. Just another form of brain dead TV watching, if you ask me.

But, whatever, if it sells, sure, why not I guess. got to make the doughnuts, after all.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

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blazespinnaker wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:17 pm
Factorio with FPS glued on would be very depressing. I think I lasted about 5 seconds watching a satisfactory youtube video before I had to turn it off. It's really that horrid to me. It felt like someone was purposely working very hard trying to demean and degrade the truly novel and creative concept that Factorio is. For what purpose, I don't know. To destroy it was all I could come up with.

And this is coming from someone who owns pretty much every VR headset made in the last 5 years.

Adding 3d, just because, has wrought a tremendous amount of damage in modern technological play. All too often it's been done as a way to replace rather than enhance the imagination we all have and should use. Just another form of brain dead TV watching, if you ask me.

But, whatever, if it sells, sure, why not I guess. got to make the doughnuts, after all.
gosh, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

Factorio was based on Minecraft modpacks, BuildCraft and IndustrialCraft. It's a lot like Dwarf Fortress.

it's a really well-executed concept, but the idea of running a factory isn't new to Factorio, I remember playing a more macro version called Sim City 3000 as a kid.

personally, I quite enjoy both Factorio and Satisfactory. they're basically the same game.

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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by blazespinnaker »

yeah, it was a strong reaction for sure, but I did it because I really believe that 3d bloat has ruined many videos games. sad companies like coffee stain undermine by pulling revenue from visionary teams like wube that are laser focused on mechanics and game play above all else.

3d bloat all too often becomes "yeah, our gameplay sucks, but hey look over here at where we use this pbr metal library we bought off some engine reseller". or, "our players have no imagination and don't care about game play, so let's just give them some realistic looking graphics."

the youtube videos look more modern and impressive, so players get sucked in without caring about how it actually plays. they spend less time looking for games with great mechanics and sophisticated user experiences.

like scale, trains, freaking trains and signals man. bots. blueprints. the modding library. the depth here is incredible.

Your reference to minecraft above is very much my point, btw. that and roblox are really fantastic platforms where you test drive a game by playing it rather than watching a video, where mechanics win via meritocracy over shiny things. kids have great imaginations and they can fill in those details far better than a 3d engine ever could

there are so many incredible ideas implemented on those platforms that just needs a wube to give them life.

3d + factorio would be cool, but use 3d to enhance gameplay and mechanics, not replace imagination.

honest question - can you link to a youtube video of satisfactory that shows gameplay mechanics at the same level of factorio?

i've looked many times, but i'm pretty skeptical I'll ever find something, as it's very likely they are too bogged down in supporting their 3d engine to match the depth that wube provides.

not to say it isn't possible to do better with 3d. VR games, for example, require 3d and is always an inherent part of the game play and mechanics. fps as well, but there is a reason why games like csgo and tf2 are still so popular, and it's not because they are free. destiny is one of the few games that have been able to invest in 3d while still maintaining decent, if not particularly original, game play. fortnite is great, but unreal never quite took it to its conclusion.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by ptx0 »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:57 pm

3d + factorio would be cool, but use 3d to enhance gameplay and mechanics, not replace imagination.

honest question - can you link to a youtube video of satisfactory that shows gameplay mechanics at the same level of factorio?
here i was thinking you'd actually played the game you're complaining so much about.

trains in a 3d world require more power when going up hill. much of Satisfactory is a logistical challenge.

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Re: ""Factorio 2""

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ptx0 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:20 am
blazespinnaker wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:57 pm

3d + factorio would be cool, but use 3d to enhance gameplay and mechanics, not replace imagination.

honest question - can you link to a youtube video of satisfactory that shows gameplay mechanics at the same level of factorio?
here i was thinking you'd actually played the game you're complaining so much about.

trains in a 3d world require more power when going up hill. much of Satisfactory is a logistical challenge.
i don't really need to play it. i've seen this story play out so many times.

it's rather telling you can't answer my question.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

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blazespinnaker wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:23 am
i don't really need to play it. i've seen this story play out so many times.

it's rather telling you can't answer my question.
maybe you just can't read. maybe you're afraid.

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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by blazespinnaker »

yeah, ad hominems and tautologic arguments don't add much
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by Impatient »

guys, what are you problems? don't start to fight! this topic is much too interesting to be locked by an admin.

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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by blazespinnaker »

I don't think anyone is fighting here. ptx0 is just disappointed that I haven't tried out satisfactory while expressing opinions on it. it's a reasonable complaint, but honestly, after being burned so many zillions of times on this archetype I am a little gunshy when it comes to trying anything with shiny graphics and no clear game play improvements.
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Re: ""Factorio 2""

Post by ptx0 »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:29 am
yeah, ad hominems and tautologic arguments don't add much
I agree, so instead of using them like "quite telling you can't answer my question", why not read what I wrote? trains in satisfactory's 3d world use more power when going uphill.

your whole premise is flawed. they didn't use the 3D as merely "woo it's 3D", it adds to gameplay. a lot. there's not just trains using more power - you can die by falling from great heights, so you want to build your factory buildings to be safe for walking around in - at least, until you get jetpack. and then the jetpack might run out of fuel, or you mis-time the power bar use - and still die.

ask posila, who plays much Satisfactory, whether it's stolen anything from Wube, or if any of the factorio developers feel pain at Satisfactory. maybe just reference the FFF where kovarex mentions that he is glad another game exists in the factory sphere? your anger at them is just misplaced. it's yours alone, not Wube's, so I don't know where you feel justified in all of it. in the legal world, we say "you have no standing here".

the main objections I see to people comparing Satis to Factorio is that Satis lacks base defense... but uhm, most megabase players don't use enemies.. and then the games are fairly much the same other than the tech, the recipes, and some of the game mechanics.

there's no inserters, no sideloading, but there's splitters, mergers, programmable splitters, and mods to add even more than this. you can downclock a machine to make it more efficient, or you can overclock it to the point that it's doing nothing but wasting power.

did you know about the machine efficiency penalty in satisfactory? if your machines are over or under producing, it actually hurts your production because the machines have a spool-up time.

not to mention that factorio allows power to brown out, whereas satisfactory has a hard limit fuse system that shuts your whole base's power off when it's overloaded - bringing it back online isn't as simple as "add a bit more power" because buffers will run out and pumps will all kick in when you reset the fuse - a logistical challenge that'll make some people pull hair out.

but let me clarify, i don't really care about your opinion, i don't even know why i sat here and explained any of this to someone who isn't even interested - you've made up your mind, it's obvious.

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