Techtonica makes me depressed. Factorio could be real 3D

[Plawerth]

I don't think the development team at Firehose Games have the expertise to reasonably duplicate what Wube has done with Factorio, with the lockstep game sync and highly developed sandboxed LUA API modding platform, allowing for massive multiplayer with opposing teams.

Techtonica doesn't have anywhere near the same level of codebase maturity, and I'm worried that it never will. There is no option for headless multiplayer servers with Techtonica. Currently they are only doing cooperative play via shared client sessions using Steam.

And yet this is what Factorio 2.0 could be, not just basically integrating the Space Exploration mod as a core game. I'm sorry but for all the work you are doing Wube.... yawn.





Techtonica shows that Factorio can absolutely work in full 3D in a voxel map. Meanwhile all the Factorio world assets are already 3D models but being downsampled to 2.5D bitmaps. So much asset development effort squandered.

Wube is failing to recognize the next step forward. I hope they will finally wake up after the 2.0 release.

[Kyralessa]

So go play Techtonica instead of spreading your misery and griping here?

[Illiander42]

Wow.

Coming to a company's personal forums to make a post saying "come play this instead" is just...

Wow.

(Also, it doesn't appear your game has blueprints, so that's an instant fail)

[aka13]

All 3d factory builders in the end never took off in a satisfying way. At best, DSP with the 2.5 stacking of buildings and conveyor layers. Even Gregtech is now more or less dead.
I would certainly try out a 3d factorio, but I don't think it would be anywhere as fun as the current 2.5d.

Techtonica looks more like a satisfactory rip-off model and logicwise, tbh.

The only factory builder in 3d, which is also long since dead, which I would've continue to play, is space engineers. But they just did what their target audience liked most, lego building blocks for le ebin spaceships.

[Anachrony]

Yeah, just because something looks cool doesn't mean it's more fun. There are advantages to 2D for a factory builder. The 3D versions at a glance seem like they might be better, but in practice can be a bit of a chore to play. If Factorio 2 was 3D, it would get lost in the noise of other games trying to be the 3D version of Factorio, and people would keep coming back to Factorio 1, the same way that existing 3D options haven't taken away Factorio's playerbase. The 2D may not look as impressive, but it has a lot of gameplay advantages. Even with 3D graphic rendering, a top down-ish camera with mostly 1 building layer is much more manageable to build quickly and easily, while providing some interesting puzzle-like constraints in fitting it all together. Factorio already has a few minor deviations from having only a single layer in the form of things like undergrounds. It's moving in that direction for rails by adding the upper level in 2.0.

[Loewchen]

3D factorio for me is 3D graphics, with no change to the top down perspective.
The thought of giving up perfect overview and interaction for an ego perspective sounds to me as usefull as having a first person text editor.
"Is this the E of "Encyclopedia" or "Elephant"? Let's walk a bit further to check the next letter!"

[FuryoftheStars]

3D factorio for me is 3D graphics, with no change to the top down perspective.

I feel pretty much the same, though I'd like to have camera rotation and possibly tilt (so I can watch from the ground perspective as my turrets battle waves of enemies ).

[computeraddict]

I got turned off of 3d factory building with Satisfactory, which wasn't. Positioning things was an enormous chore. I'm with Loewchen in that the only thing I'd even want to be 3d'd in Factorio is graphics, but even the 2d graphics have the *significant* advantage of making the modding process easier, as 2d assets are so much insanely easier to make than 3d assets.

[Plawerth]

I thought this discussion was dead when it moved to off-topic on the first day. I have previously advocated for 3D factorio, so it is on-topic as a game suggestion. Moving this from suggestions to off topic seems a Word of God statement from the developers that Factorio will NEVER be 3D. Sigh.

So then. Kyralessa / Illiander42 ... actually no, I don't advocate playing Techtonica. I already said it's currently extremely shallow, lacks dedicated server support, is coop only with no PVP capability, no LUA programming API.

Unlike Satisfactory their build objects are grid-aligned with the voxel grid, which is certainly weird as things built far apart happen to perfectly align, but it's better than allowing independent randomly aligned build grids as with Space Engineers.. good grief that is awful.



And I'm not really demonstrating the advantages of 3D in two images... the main thing is not being locked into a 2d flat grid for belt and machine placement. There's absolutely no problem with many stacked floors of tech, routing materials up and down and all around.

The ComfyFactorio modding group has worked around these limitations in Factorio, by using surfaces inside vehicles to simulate inner spaces, and dungeon maps with chests linked between surfaces to transfer materials.

But this is all a kludge compared to actual real stacked layers of machines in real 3D, which is effortless in a voxel space, and only possible with the ability to see the world from the character's direct point of view to see under/over these stacked levels.



I do accept that Factorio's logistic bots would make no sense in real 3D, since in 2.5D they pass through each other and no one cares to figure out how to keep them from self-intersecting each other as they all bring you 1000 materials.

[Kyralessa]

I dunno, maybe people would be better at keeping it on topic and at talking to you about it if you weren't so rude about it?

[FuryoftheStars]

I have previously advocated for 3D factorio, so it is on-topic as a game suggestion. Moving this from suggestions to off topic seems a Word of God statement from the developers that Factorio will NEVER be 3D. Sigh.

Well, yes, Factorio as it currently stands will never be 3D. That would require a huuuge rewrite. It would have to be a full on sequel, and your OP accusing Wube of "failing" in that regard and waving a newer game around on a 3D engine as proof isn't constructive.

[aka13]

Don't you think that while you could certainly still call it whatever you like, even factorio, that it would be a completely different game?
The expansion was always going to be an expansion, not a different game.

I am not opposed to it, mind you, just sayin

[mmmPI]

In 3D, from the screenshot, i see a problem, in that you can't see the red items on the belts at the bottom layer unless you are super zoomed in, in case you can only see a few belts, or you have something that seemingly goes to infinity with the background very small and indistinguishable.

I like not having to battle with camera more than zoom in zoom out.

Not all 3D games forces you to constantly monitor the camera, some make it the game itself, when you are playing a space shooter game it's fun, when you are in first person or 3rd person too, but when making a factory ? I can understand what Loewchen describe as a 3D text editor, and the need to move around to see if it's the E of Elephant, or the E of Encyclopedia.

I think Factorio is not a really good example of massive multiplayer of opposing team. This is not the core gameplay of factorio. I think games that are good for massive multiplayer battle have generally their own massive servers and are more like MMO-like, they focus onto the "massive multiplayer with opposing teams".

I think factorio's factory are maybe a bit too complex for a player to be tasked to monitor damages done by ennemy in real time. They are are made of tiny elements with just 1 missing could break all the others.( like a belt or a wire missing , or a bad item blocking a spitter ... ). Most games of factorio i think are played solo given the figures of connected player on steam and the list of players in the multiplayer servers.

It's not clear what would be the timeframe of the battle if there was opposing team ? Is it shared persistent world over several month/years ? This is not like current factorio. Or private servers independant server run by players like now ? This doesn't work for pvp, when people lose , they quit the server and restart another one when games last several days. No-one rejoin a game where there are 16 hours left out of 30 hours roughly to know 1rst and 2nd place but host is about to get wiped in the next 4 hours and won't get more than 5th place. That the problem with games like civilization in multiplayer, if the game last more than 6-8 hours , you don't do it in 1 sitting. And very few will rejoin a game for 6 hours without having a shot at the victory or some goal for the rest of the game.

If there is no such game, it's maybe because it's not clear what would players enjoy in it ? ( maybe it's just me who don't know about such game)

In factorio, i think players enjoy looking at their complex factory, which they protect against biters without too much trouble. But i don't think players would enjoy seeing the same patiently built factory destroyed 50% of the time as in competitive multiplayer. Maybe some players very familiar with the game like speedrunners wouldn't mind, but again seeing the figures on steam, i think for many players , when playing factorio, making the factory, is enough of a challenge already and having it function is hard enough even with very primitive ennemy.

I think factorio is a very solid concept, and that's no surprise many other games tries to emulate, but in doing so, not all are successful that's also no surprise. I'm not convinced the 3D is necessary and/or would make things better. The kind of view we have in factorio make me think of RTS game ( which is an older solid concept too), the action happens on a "map" that is a 2D plan, with maybe some layers like planes or submarines in RTS. But having it all visible at a glance is part of the strengh i find. It makes it easy to assess what's going on with very few needs for menus, the minimap to locate is very strong for 2D, a bit less for 3D, you'd need 2 one from top and one from back like in space shooter game if the action is really occuring in 3 dimension. Things would hide other things, always.

I think the "multiplayer" way that would appeal to me the most would be something like clusterio where you as player are part of a larger team/ alliance but still have your 'own' factory or part to monitor that is yours, it contribute to a larger thing but it's your own. Maybe there would be a lobby for players to meet and play in opposite team on the same map, but that would be another mode, like "combat" and the results would yield benefit/ orientate the goals for one's "personal factory". I think it would be a way to open the isolated "base-builder" to other "isolated base builder" either trough competition or cooperation because i think factorio multiplayer can be great, but there's not many incentive for players to try, even the opposite, it can feel daunting, or like you have nothing to do when joining someone's else base, or that anyone joining your base think they know what to do but keep breaking your stuff. Those are great opportunities to learn, things that people in the same team share and learn when playing competitive game. This also means in competitve game there is a matchmaking, players that meet are supposed to have roughly the same level of understanding of the game. This would benefit factorio. But it also feel like a different game.

I can understand why playing other games be depressing, the main problem with Factorio to me is that it makes playing other games that try to be similar frustrating somehow. Playing it a lot makes me either want to program in a real editor, or play a very different game that wouldn't feel like it could have been as polished as factorio, like a less ambitious game. With little involvement from player required, until i want to play factorio again x)

[Koub]

[Koub] I'm not opposed to let the community discuss calmly about the benefits/disadvantages of going 3D, and comparing different games in the same genre as Factorio, but please keep the discussion focused on that, not on the people, or the way they present their arguments.

[nuhll]

Just my 2 cents.

I also "wish" for a 3d factorio. But im realist, why factorio is so great in every stage of the game, is because of that 2d. Most things, when not everything i like on factorio is based on 2d and wouldnt be possible that way in 3d.


But games like factorio told me ONE THING: graphic is not everything, it can have the best graphic, but is no fun.

Im sure if they get a nice idea for a 3d game, they would do it.

One way maybe would be 2d+3d. Like top view (2d) and you have the option to see thru your character...?
I think maybe the best way is best out of both worlds.

I dont know 8 years or something like this ago ive sent them a mail for the space idea and it took time, but they did it.

[BrainGamer_]

tbh the only way I can see a "3D" Factorio work is identical to how Anno games are "3D". Actual 3D models and an orbiting camera but everything is still built on a (flat) plane.

[MeduSalem]

And here I am playing Factorio for one of the reasons because it has 2d sprite graphics. That is how opinions diverge. ^^

I always feel like stylized sprite based games have an age-less charm that cannot be replicated by full 3d games. They are like manga or comics. They don't age; somehow our brains are wired like that. That is why a sprite game will still look nice even 20 years later.
But a 3d polygon game will look like crap because of adjusted expectations. At least when I go back to playing a 3d game back from 2004 I know I won't be saying "wow best graphics ever, just like I remember", but rather "wow this looks even worse than I remember" the older it gets. ^^


That said I also witnessed tons of games that made a transition from 2d sprites to full 3d polygon stuff over the years. Most that made such a transition didn't really leave a better or lasting impression on me compared to their original even without changing to generic 3d graphics; Most of them suffered tons of other issues from their transition, with annoying controls/inputs... or reduced complexity/depth as a tradeoff to improve user-experience or performance.


The performance is also a big deal for me nowadays. I don't feel like having to buy an expensive graphics card just to be able to play a base building, resource & automation game. And toning down the graphics settings to the point the original sprite game looks similar or even better... well... kinda defeats the purpose of it being 3d. xD
At least when I play most of the 2d sprite games even my outdated graphics card is fine. It doesn't even start spinning the GPU fan with most of these games because they are so low impact. They are usually all way more CPU/memory heavy to the point it becomes unplayable long before the GPU would start doing some real work. ^^



Anyway regardless of my opinion I am sure that Factorio will likely make the 3d transition with a sequel eventually. But for the time being and for the expansion I am happy the way it is.

[aka13]

Highly depents on the sprites. I remember the old days, the sprites would not be nice to revisit . Old nintendo games also look like shit, if you remove the nostalgia goggles.
Also highly depends on the 3d graphics age, imo. Games from around 2010 onwards, which are designed well, still look good.

But I absolutely agree that factorio is so well stylized nowadays that it will continue to be enjoyable for ages.

[quyxkh]

If you think there might be some limit on how much a game can demand, then you have to also think the best games will push those limits, and what a game chooses to fill that capacity with, what it chooses to demand of its players and their rigs, will involve tradeoffs.

Satisfactory and Techtonica require 3D navigation (and the mental modeling to go with it). I think they make room in the players' heads for those by giving up on a lot of intricacies and design puzzles in the equipment. Belt lanes, inserter timing, la la.

If Factorio tried to be "real 3D" the inserter animations alone (which are already limiting factors on base design with just sprites) would eat any rig alive. And the bots? And the biters?

[Tertius]

I like the 2D presentation of Factorio very much, because many 3D games make me suffer from motion sickness. About 2/3 of all the modern 3D games make me sick and I have to abandon them. Don't laugh about this, it's definitely not a funny thing. It's as funny and enjoyable as pimples on your butt. I have to abandon quite some first class and highly praised games.

This is not the reason why Factorio should stay 2D, however it's one reason saying it's not an issue for me if Factorio will stay 2D.