0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

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factoriouzr
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0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by factoriouzr »

When using the rail planner/builder, it doesn't seem to keep the direction of the track being extended. Eg. if extending an existing track in the horizontal direction, the track will face in a different direction (likely previous rotation of last entity placed). This isn't intuitive. If you are continuing a track that is going a certain direction, the game should assume the most likely direction of subsequent track is the same as the initial track. Ie. the game should assume the track you will lay is going to go the same way as the starting piece of the track as this is the most intuitive case.

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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by Loewchen »

But the rail planer only allows to connect to existing rail and extends in the direction of the rail end you clicked on, you can not even do it "wrong" if you tried to?!

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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by mexmer »

Loewchen wrote:But the rail planer only allows to connect to existing rail and extends in the direction of the rail end you clicked on, you can not even do it "wrong" if you tried to?!
guess he means, that when you hover over rail tile, you might "extend" it both direction (depending on which end of current rail tile your cursor is), eg. either continue, or you can go build in direction of already built rail.

i don't see this as a bug tho' since how you will otherwise make rails forks? you need to start building in direction of already existing track. then point your mouse outside of track, and here you go. since building and connecting forks from outside is pain :D

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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by factoriouzr »

That's not what I meant. I mean if the rail is going left to right, when you start to extend it, the game should default to horizontal rail going to the right (the unconnected side of the rail). I don't mean it should be locked to that direction, I mean it should start as that orientation as that is the most helpful and most likely direction the player want to go. Right now it starts in some random (or last used?) orientation. Eg it might start vertical, or at an angle. I'm always having to rotate the track a "random" number of times to get the direction I want. It's not consistent or intuitive. If it is changed to behave as I want, It will be consistent and easy work with. You always know it will default to continuing along the same path.

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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by eradicator »

When you start using the ghost-rail-planner by shift-left-clicking on the yellow arrow it does not have a direction. It will freely rotate in any direction. Only after pressing rotate (r) for at least once will it be locked into the direction that comes after its current end piece rotation at the time of pressing, i.e. the first locked-in direction depends on where you're holding your cursor at that time, it's not random. ;).
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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by factoriouzr »

eradicator wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:16 am
When you start using the ghost-rail-planner by shift-left-clicking on the yellow arrow it does not have a direction. It will freely rotate in any direction. Only after pressing rotate (r) for at least once will it be locked into the direction that comes after its current end piece rotation at the time of pressing, i.e. the first locked-in direction depends on where you're holding your cursor at that time, it's not random. ;).
What do you mean? I tried playing with it before and it didn't seem to matter what end of the rail I started the rail builder on. It should default to going in the same direction as the track you started it from. I should not have to press "r" again to get that behaviour (assuming that's what you meant?).

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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by eradicator »

factoriouzr wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:56 pm
eradicator wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:16 am
When you start using the ghost-rail-planner by shift-left-clicking on the yellow arrow it does not have a direction. It will freely rotate in any direction. Only after pressing rotate (r) for at least once will it be locked into the direction that comes after its current end piece rotation at the time of pressing, i.e. the first locked-in direction depends on where you're holding your cursor at that time, it's not random. ;).
What do you mean? I tried playing with it before and it didn't seem to matter what end of the rail I started the rail builder on. It should default to going in the same direction as the track you started it from. I should not have to press "r" again to get that behaviour (assuming that's what you meant?).
I mean what i said. And i am unsure how i could describe it in any more detail. That the first rotation is dependant on the current last piece of the planner is also merely "not random", which is not nessecarily the best choice. But guessing what a human wants at any given time is pretty high-level magic.
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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by factoriouzr »

eradicator wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:57 am
factoriouzr wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:56 pm
eradicator wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:16 am
When you start using the ghost-rail-planner by shift-left-clicking on the yellow arrow it does not have a direction. It will freely rotate in any direction. Only after pressing rotate (r) for at least once will it be locked into the direction that comes after its current end piece rotation at the time of pressing, i.e. the first locked-in direction depends on where you're holding your cursor at that time, it's not random. ;).
What do you mean? I tried playing with it before and it didn't seem to matter what end of the rail I started the rail builder on. It should default to going in the same direction as the track you started it from. I should not have to press "r" again to get that behaviour (assuming that's what you meant?).
I mean what i said. And i am unsure how i could describe it in any more detail. That the first rotation is dependant on the current last piece of the planner is also merely "not random", which is not nessecarily the best choice. But guessing what a human wants at any given time is pretty high-level magic.
"That the first rotation is dependant on the current last piece of the planner". I'm not sure what a "current" and "last piece" are as they seem to be contradictory labels. It's either current or the last piece.

In my experience, it rarely picked the rail piece I wanted that matched the piece I started the planner from.

As for "But guessing what a human wants at any given time is pretty high-level magic.". I agree with you to a point, but what I am suggesting doesn't involve guessing. Just making one simple assumption that is more likely to be correct and useful then whatever algorithm they are using now, and that is to just assume when the user continues a track (starts the planner from an existing track) that the user wants to continue the track in a straight line (straight relative to the existing track, ie continue in the same direction).

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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by eradicator »

When you plan a ghost rail, the ghost has two "end-points", one is where the real rail ends. Let's call it the start of the ghost, and one is where your mouse cursor is, i call that the "current end piece". The current rotation of that piece at your mouse cursor is what determines the rotation when you press "r" for the first time. And that piece rotates freely before you first press "r".
factoriouzr wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:39 am
Just making one simple assumption that is more likely to be correct and useful then whatever algorithm they are using now, and that is to just assume when the user continues a track (starts the planner from an existing track) that the user wants to continue the track in a straight line (straight relative to the existing track, ie continue in the same direction).
I don't want to continue at the real track though, i want to continue at the end of the ghost. So i have no problems with the current system.

Also this is starting to sound more like an "Ideas & Suggetions" thing than a Bugreport?
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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by factoriouzr »

eradicator wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:04 am
When you plan a ghost rail, the ghost has two "end-points", one is where the real rail ends. Let's call it the start of the ghost, and one is where your mouse cursor is, i call that the "current end piece". The current rotation of that piece at your mouse cursor is what determines the rotation when you press "r" for the first time. And that piece rotates freely before you first press "r".
factoriouzr wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:39 am
Just making one simple assumption that is more likely to be correct and useful then whatever algorithm they are using now, and that is to just assume when the user continues a track (starts the planner from an existing track) that the user wants to continue the track in a straight line (straight relative to the existing track, ie continue in the same direction).
I don't want to continue at the real track though, i want to continue at the end of the ghost. So i have no problems with the current system.

Also this is starting to sound more like an "Ideas & Suggetions" thing than a Bugreport?
"The current rotation of that piece at your mouse cursor is what determines the rotation when you press "r" for the first time. And that piece rotates freely before you first press "r""

The current piece at your mouse cursor already has a rotation, so how would that determine the rotation when you press "r"? If it's already rotated as such (since very element has a rotation when placing) why do you need to press "r" again?

Let me try to explain what I want again.

I have a track running from west to east (ghosts or already placed).
I shift + click with a rail in my hand on the endmost piece of track already on them map at the far east.
Regardless of the rotation of the piece in my hand, I want the ghost building to start with a horizontal track piece.

I think the above is much more intuitive then using the current algorithm.

Consider this:
The player goes throughout their factory and outposts building rail. They extend different rails and switch back and forth as it makes sense for them. When they extend one track going from left to right, by making it turn up. When they extend another track also going from left to right, the game should still default to continuing the track horizontally, instead of using the rotation of the last track used for eg. (eg. vertical).

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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by Loewchen »

factoriouzr wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:31 pm
Let me try to explain what I want again.

I have a track running from west to east (ghosts or already placed).
I shift + click with a rail in my hand on the endmost piece of track already on them map at the far east.
Regardless of the rotation of the piece in my hand, I want the ghost building to start with a horizontal track piece.
I still don't understand the problem, the behaviour you want is exactly the behaviour I get.
The "start of the ghost building" is connected to the existing track, it obviously must be horizontal if the existing track it started on is horizontal otherwise they would not connect.
The direction of the end of the ghosts is not dependent on the previous cursor orientation either, it will simply use whatever orientation results in the shortest track length from start to the current cursor position, unless you force an orientation by pressing the rotate key for the first time.

Is this the behaviour you see as well?
If yes, what part of the behaviour is the problem?
If no, make a video that shows what you get.

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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by factoriouzr »

Loewchen wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:53 am
factoriouzr wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:31 pm
Let me try to explain what I want again.

I have a track running from west to east (ghosts or already placed).
I shift + click with a rail in my hand on the endmost piece of track already on them map at the far east.
Regardless of the rotation of the piece in my hand, I want the ghost building to start with a horizontal track piece.
I still don't understand the problem, the behaviour you want is exactly the behaviour I get.
The "start of the ghost building" is connected to the existing track, it obviously must be horizontal if the existing track it started on is horizontal otherwise they would not connect.
The direction of the end of the ghosts is not dependent on the previous cursor orientation either, it will simply use whatever orientation results in the shortest track length from start to the current cursor position, unless you force an orientation by pressing the rotate key for the first time.

Is this the behaviour you see as well?
If yes, what part of the behaviour is the problem?
If no, make a video that shows what you get.
I have not experienced this. It was usually in the wrong position for me.

If it indeed behaves as you say before pressing "r" and it auto picks the shortest track length and will always continue in the same direction if in a straight line then that should work. Like I said however, this has not been my experience. Perhaps the reason is that when the mouse cursor is relatively close to the starting point, it picks a curved track going in a different direction (maybe because the mouse cursor is above or below the line of the track?). Then I press "r" to fix it and rotate the track in the correct way, then i drag the track out. This is probably the most common scenario for most players, and maybe that's why I didn't see this behaviour.

However, if what you say is true, it's not documented anywhere obvious and I didn't see this online either (perhaps it's documented now, but it likely wasn't mentioned anywhere for a long time).

I tried this out and it seems to work as you said. Thanks for letting me know, that is good.

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Re: 0.14.x rail builder doesn't keep rotation of track

Post by Aeternus »

I think I get what the OP is talking about. When you have a set of tracks next to an empty 2x2 tile, and NOT use the arrow-extending-out from an existing track by holding shift, then clicking the terminating end of the existing track (yellow arrow will pop up) to drag a rail path, but instead just drop a single rail section next to it as an individual entity, then the next rail section will not automatically orient itself to connect to any existing rail. I'd consider that working-as-designed, because you're just placing a new building basically, one that doesn't neccesarily need to connect to existing rail. In my experience, when you select a new entity, the game resets orientation to zero degrees, so you have to rotate the rail section to line it up if that is your intent.

As for the rail planner using the shortest path... It tries to, but short corners are something it seems to have problems with. A simple S branch to make a station parallel to a track can be a pain to make, because the first corner leading away from the existing track seems to result in wide weird loops.

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