Resource gen settings

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Coffee Daemon
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Resource gen settings

Post by Coffee Daemon »

As title.

Looking to see what people think are reasonable resource gen settings. Tried my usual and found that there were MASSIVE patches everywhere, my OCD just wouldnt let me build on them.

Also hitting restart to get a new gen seems to mess the settings up and will often just cause a massive patch to go over the starting area.

Marconos
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by Marconos »

Use RSO (resource spawner overhaul) that helps a lot with resource generation.

Next I would turn off vanilla oil, Py has his own types and it doesn't make sense to have regular oil spawns with his.

The rest of the resource settings you make the way you like. RSO will give you the base of what you need in your starting area so you can get going. The problem is there are so many resource you do end up with a map with resources everywhere. I don't like that either but not sure what to do about it. As I suggested though RSO seems to do the best with it.

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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by Coffee Daemon »

Marconos wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:58 am
Use RSO (resource spawner overhaul) that helps a lot with resource generation.

Next I would turn off vanilla oil, Py has his own types and it doesn't make sense to have regular oil spawns with his.

The rest of the resource settings you make the way you like. RSO will give you the base of what you need in your starting area so you can get going. The problem is there are so many resource you do end up with a map with resources everywhere. I don't like that either but not sure what to do about it. As I suggested though RSO seems to do the best with it.
RSO actually messed resgen up badly for me. I ended up with nothing in a 20-chunk radius and I ended up disabling it. Still not sure how to tweak it but i'll mess around with RSO again I guess.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by BlueTemplar »

From a quick look, it seems that pyrawores_1.9.3 (for 0.18) hasn't been updated to use the 0.17+ resource generation yet ?
(aluminium still has stuff like "peaks" and "octaves")
While AFAIK the resource API has been fully opened since 0.17.51 ?
Or is there any reason that Py would need a completely custom resource generation ?
(Aside from rocks, and even those might simply ape the way how oil is set up, infinite aspects aside ?)
Last edited by BlueTemplar on Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Coffee Daemon
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by Coffee Daemon »

So what I've learned.

RSO will only put every ore around your starting area IF there are biters on.
Once resources are placed in the immediate starting area, there is a gap between the ore patches where there just IS NO ORE.
This gap scales with Starting Area.
If no enemies at map spawn, RSO doesn't give you the resources in starting area. Whilst technically I could run back and forth.... RSO makes for some interesting distances...

So looks like spawn with biters then disable them would be best. Cant get resources near if I dont spawn enemies, additional patches need to be closer so small starting area but to survive I need more time than that would allow.

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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by Pridesfall »

I've only ever used vanilla resource gen. What does RSO provide that people like?

kingarthur
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by kingarthur »

Pridesfall wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:19 am
I've only ever used vanilla resource gen. What does RSO provide that people like?
It has it's own custom resource spawn code that spreads the ores out over a larger area with bigger patches so you dont have ores all over each other.

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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by Blokus »

Pridesfall wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:19 am
I've only ever used vanilla resource gen. What does RSO provide that people like?
Depends how you tune it. By default it is like super railworld, with a tendency to be more consistent than vanilla resource gen at low frequencies (i.e. there tends to be less of "deserts and oases" in terms of ore spawns, most 7x7 chunk regions wind up with at least one ore spawn in them and usually not more than that). In addition it gives a bit more precise control than vanilla's three knobs.

RSO patches also seem to pretty much never collide unless you make the patches huge or maybe if you make the region size really small.

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by BlueTemplar »

That's probably because RSO always (?) spawns a resource in the middle of a chunk ?
(Does this look, with some resource parameters, a bit too grid-aligned ?)

RSO was very important in 0.16-, when the vanilla resource generator wasn't nearly as good, and with a much smaller range of possible values.
AFAIK mostly used to make more railworldy Rail worlds,
And also maybe for a more "classic" (0.14-style?), almost-complete-wall-of-red, (but some still accessible resources?) Death World ?

And AFAIK *in theory*, since 0.17, water (or an ore patch) should never "eat" another patch - at least quantity-wise - at least in the starting area ?

So, in 0.17, RSO basically got the highest honor a mod can get : its features were integrated into vanilla !

Though I'm indeed wondering if RSO doesn't still have a use-case for people that prefer having a consistent map even outside the starting area - rather than a random one ?

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DarkyPupu
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by DarkyPupu »

Even at lowest frequency and apart if i'm missing something, without RSO you cannot have a super-rail-world where you have to look for ressources and fetch them from far. At least to my tastes, they're way to close to each other.

RSO resolves neatly this point, so i don't think there's anything to really change in Py (not its job, i'd say).

I'm interested however in some ore disabling said above, is there some ores which should be disabled at gen-time to have better "Py experience" ?

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by BlueTemplar »

Well, depends on how infrequent and big you want your resources (and water?) to be - even RSO would hit limits at some point.
Just a single, hopefully representative, example of a "Rail World squared" settings : lowest frequency (16.5%) and highest size (600%) 0.18.2 vanilla resource generation :
Image
(With chart radius = 1024, well a little bit more due to Resource Map Label Marker...)
And with RSO, the lower randomness is likely to minimize the need to get some specific resource from afar ?

Currently, the Py mods are set up in a way that you are NOT supposed to use RSO :
Py Raw Ores (and the mods it depends on) don't even suggest RSO as an option !
(No wonder that this results in messages like the one from the OP !)

And wouldn't it be the job of Py mods to properly work with the vanilla resource generator ?
As a reminder, if I'm not mistaken, the ore part of py raw ores is a fork of bob's ores - isn't it ?
And bob ores have been made compatible with 0.17 - why shouldn't py mods be made compatible too ?

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DarkyPupu
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by DarkyPupu »

My opinion is that as long as we don't bug Py (or any of his helpers) about problems we encounter with other mods, it's fine that everyone adjust the game to his liking :)

For example i think, to my very personal taste, that resources are way too close, even if it's the intended way originally. There's no real objective reasons for that, it's just a matter of taste at this stage : i love very long distance train outposts in general.

I'm unsure if it would be up to Py mods to deal with resources or not and i don't have a strong opinion about this, my guess is that Py already have his hands full with more interesting things (like PyAL or such), but of course i wouldn't mind if he wants to manage that. I have a perfectly fine result with RSO that's why i am happy about both Py mechanisms and RSO resources :)

Now for the RSO suggests, why would it be even optional if not necessary ? As long as it's not incompatible and people are fine with it, i don't see any problems. If my post was understood as a complain, it was not :) I can easily put Py mods in my favorites.

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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by kingarthur »

DarkyPupu wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:52 pm
My opinion is that as long as we don't bug Py (or any of his helpers) about problems we encounter with other mods, it's fine that everyone adjust the game to his liking :)

For example i think, to my very personal taste, that resources are way too close, even if it's the intended way originally. There's no real objective reasons for that, it's just a matter of taste at this stage : i love very long distance train outposts in general.

I'm unsure if it would be up to Py mods to deal with resources or not and i don't have a strong opinion about this, my guess is that Py already have his hands full with more interesting things (like PyAL or such), but of course i wouldn't mind if he wants to manage that. I have a perfectly fine result with RSO that's why i am happy about both Py mechanisms and RSO resources :)

Now for the RSO suggests, why would it be even optional if not necessary ? As long as it's not incompatible and people are fine with it, i don't see any problems. If my post was understood as a complain, it was not :) I can easily put Py mods in my favorites.
First off rso is completely fine to use and is highly recommended as the vanilla system really doesnt like the number of ores py has added.

And I've attempted to sort out ore gen better but it a massive pain in the ass. I made a modified system that's about half way between rso and the vanilla system that mostly avoids overlapping ores.

I'd do more on it but rso exist and has already had years of work that I'd have to recreate to fix vanilla

kingarthur
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by kingarthur »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:15 pm
Well, depends on how infrequent and big you want your resources (and water?) to be - even RSO would hit limits at some point.
Just a single, hopefully representative, example of a "Rail World squared" settings : lowest frequency (16.5%) and highest size (600%) 0.18.2 vanilla resource generation :
Image
(With chart radius = 1024, well a little bit more due to Resource Map Label Marker...)
And with RSO, the lower randomness is likely to minimize the need to get some specific resource from afar ?

Currently, the Py mods are set up in a way that you are NOT supposed to use RSO :
Py Raw Ores (and the mods it depends on) don't even suggest RSO as an option !
(No wonder that this results in messages like the one from the OP !)

And wouldn't it be the job of Py mods to properly work with the vanilla resource generator ?
As a reminder, if I'm not mistaken, the ore part of py raw ores is a fork of bob's ores - isn't it ?
And bob ores have been made compatible with 0.17 - why shouldn't py mods be made compatible too ?
1. No where is it posted or meantion that rso isnt supposed to be used. Just because we didnt slape a big ass use rso sticker everywhere doesnt mean it not supposed to be used. If we didnt want it used it be marked as incompatible.
2. Rawores is in no way shape or form a fork of Bob's.
3. Pymods works perfectly fine with vanilla resource generation.
4. They are compatible with. 17 and .18 or it wouldnt load. Which it does.

Tldr. Dont assume shit

Marconos
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by Marconos »

DarkyPupu wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:52 pm
.......

For example i think, to my very personal taste, that resources are way too close, even if it's the intended way originally. There's no real objective reasons for that, it's just a matter of taste at this stage : i love very long distance train outposts in general.
.......
Totally agree with this. I want my resources spread out and large enough size to last for a bit before I have to expand yet again. I'm wondering what you are using for setting that have gotten you a good setup? In my last run through I still felt like there were resources patches everywhere and you couldn't hardly move without hitting another patch. Part of that is caused by the shear number of resources that exist in the mod.

Does anyone have a list of the RSO settings that they are using?

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DarkyPupu
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by DarkyPupu »

It depends how masochist you are and which mods you play with. If i'd play on always online server, with extreme multipliers for research my usual config is "40" to "50" for generation region and 0.9 for probability to avoid the "grid effect" due to 100% probability. It also depends on your map settings regarding water and map layout. It gives something like the screenshot here.

I don't change the scrollbars from map gen myself, i don't think it's necessary.

Note that due to multiple types of ore in Pymods, anything more scarce will make some patches to really never happen (and the zoom on my screenshot is fairly out so they're not that close). Also important to have decent resources at start point, since you won't have rail for a while. I don't activate oil at start point, only ore.

Matter of tastes, adapt to your preferences :)
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Marconos
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by Marconos »

That looks like an interesting generation model. Might be a little spread out, but not sure without actually checking it out in game etc.

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DarkyPupu
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Re: Resource gen settings

Post by DarkyPupu »

Since i'm done with previous IR play and awaiting for new Py AL, i try several things.
Maybe you have same problem as me: spread and far resources are nice, but looking for them for hours is not.

I tried to use "Resource map label marker" mod + RSO with 100 (max) chunks for resources, it gives interesting results as it points out resources, without full map disclosure :
Sans titre.png
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Of course, scarcity would need to be adjusted to liking.
As far as i'm concerned, it is probably a good compromise between "wanting far resources", "not wanting to see all map since start" and "not wasting hours to find resources". I guess this should also be played with enormous multiplier on patches as there are few of them.

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