PY POWER ANALISIS

pyanodon's mods are here

Moderator: pyanodon

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1960
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by BlueTemplar »

Oh, right, I did do the math for that, but the lower temperature of H2 Combustion Mixture meant that it wasn't worth it pollution-wise... (Neither were combustion mixtures in general...)

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:36 pm
Oh, right, I did do the math for that, but the lower temperature of H2 Combustion Mixture meant that it wasn't worth it pollution-wise... (Neither were combustion mixtures in general...)
when balancing mixtures i am 90% sure py didnt consider pollution and when it was for me to balance something i didnt


immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

i made this this power plan for mid late game :

line1 tar from shrooms +coalgas > to syngas
line 2 shroom aromatics , use O2 from here to boost syngas , vent the rest
line 3 syngas+aromatics >crude oil then refine it with vanilla advanced method and u get pgas Loli and Hoil
line 4 use tholens to make glycerol and also get some tar from the shroom builds and some coal and make coal briquets (absolute tar and coal priority)
line 5(optional) Hoil > Loli (not really a gain unless fully moduled)
line 6 use tholens to make refsyngas , or that it in
line 7 use the 1000 c and 950 recipes to make power

NOTES : use shroom syngas to power the plant +Hoil so it is power independent + some solar for extra safety

Crixomix
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:10 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by Crixomix »

Small question that you all may know, I can't download the thing now.

Whats the formula for the megajoules of fuel value for combustion mixture at various temperatures? Like if I have 1 unit of 500c combustion, how many megajoules does that produce at 100% efficiency? Obviously tier 1 of turbines is only 42% but I want to be able to do the math.

Thanks.

Blokus
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:49 pm
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by Blokus »

Crixomix wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:56 am
Small question that you all may know, I can't download the thing now.

Whats the formula for the megajoules of fuel value for combustion mixture at various temperatures? Like if I have 1 unit of 500c combustion, how many megajoules does that produce at 100% efficiency? Obviously tier 1 of turbines is only 42% but I want to be able to do the math.

Thanks.
I don't remember the values offhand, but the electricity produced by 1 unit of combustion mixture at temperature T is (T-15)/985 times the max output of the turbine divided by the max fluid consumption of the turbine. The max output already takes the efficiency into account, you don't have to take that into account directly.

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

Crixomix wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:56 am
Small question that you all may know, I can't download the thing now.

Whats the formula for the megajoules of fuel value for combustion mixture at various temperatures? Like if I have 1 unit of 500c combustion, how many megajoules does that produce at 100% efficiency? Obviously tier 1 of turbines is only 42% but I want to be able to do the math.

Thanks.
i made a calculator for that

https://github.com/immortal-sniper1/py-power-calculator

also u cant download what?

Crixomix
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:10 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by Crixomix »

Ah I didn't see there was a web version, but I'm on my phone, would the web version work on a phone?

Edit: so is the formula supposed to be (t-15)/985 or (t-15)/1000? Cause the calculator linked says 1000 but someone else said 985?

Also, is the 42% efficiency the rounded number for turbine 1? Or is the output it says the rounded number? Meaning is the max output exactly what it says? Or is the efficiency exactly what it says? Because one of them has to be rounded.

Thanks.

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

Crixomix wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:51 pm
Ah I didn't see there was a web version, but I'm on my phone, would the web version work on a phone?

Edit: so is the formula supposed to be (t-15)/985 or (t-15)/1000? Cause the calculator linked says 1000 but someone else said 985?

Also, is the 42% efficiency the rounded number for turbine 1? Or is the output it says the rounded number? Meaning is the max output exactly what it says? Or is the efficiency exactly what it says? Because one of them has to be rounded.

Thanks.
constants 42% it is /1000 as far as i know

output is a rounded number in game since it had to be in MW , my calculator is very precise and i tested it in practice a lot
on phone not sure but there is a c++ version too that worked on my phone (android) some time ago

Crixomix
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:10 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by Crixomix »

Sweet. Thanks for the info!

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

Crixomix wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:35 pm
Sweet. Thanks for the info!
YOU ARE WELCOME!

Blokus
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:49 pm
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by Blokus »

immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:20 pm
Crixomix wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:51 pm
Ah I didn't see there was a web version, but I'm on my phone, would the web version work on a phone?

Edit: so is the formula supposed to be (t-15)/985 or (t-15)/1000? Cause the calculator linked says 1000 but someone else said 985?

Also, is the 42% efficiency the rounded number for turbine 1? Or is the output it says the rounded number? Meaning is the max output exactly what it says? Or is the efficiency exactly what it says? Because one of them has to be rounded.

Thanks.
constants 42% it is /1000 as far as i know

output is a rounded number in game since it had to be in MW , my calculator is very precise and i tested it in practice a lot
on phone not sure but there is a c++ version too that worked on my phone (android) some time ago
No, it is -15 and /985, because the baseline temperature of combustion mixture is 15C.

mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3937
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by mrvn »

I'm playing PyBlock so this might be different to normal Py games. But I'm now using power generation as a means to eliminate byproducts. For example I have a ton of coal gas left over and nothing to do with it. So it gets turned into combustion fluid (via syngas with oxygen, lets not waste it). The result is I have a lot of combustion fluid.

I have a self contained power plant to produce combustion fluid. Parts of it are used to power itself, the rest are now loaded onto trains. Power generation itself is a big field of turbines with train stations around it where all combustion fluid gets collected and used. Since I'm using LTN I'm using the provider priorities to use up combustion fluid from byproducts first. That's really the only good way to manage power production from different sources: Manage the fuel, not the generated power. Currently I have so much combustion fluid from by products that building any solar cells or nuclear setup is not even on the horizon. I have to use the combustion fluid or stuff stops working.

PS: I guess this might change as I change to more efficient methods to produces plates and build more high level stuff. A lot of combustion fluid is byproduct of needing tons of tar in PyBlock.

kingarthur
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:39 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by kingarthur »

mrvn wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:55 pm
I'm playing PyBlock so this might be different to normal Py games. But I'm now using power generation as a means to eliminate byproducts. For example I have a ton of coal gas left over and nothing to do with it. So it gets turned into combustion fluid (via syngas with oxygen, lets not waste it). The result is I have a lot of combustion fluid.

I have a self contained power plant to produce combustion fluid. Parts of it are used to power itself, the rest are now loaded onto trains. Power generation itself is a big field of turbines with train stations around it where all combustion fluid gets collected and used. Since I'm using LTN I'm using the provider priorities to use up combustion fluid from byproducts first. That's really the only good way to manage power production from different sources: Manage the fuel, not the generated power. Currently I have so much combustion fluid from by products that building any solar cells or nuclear setup is not even on the horizon. I have to use the combustion fluid or stuff stops working.

PS: I guess this might change as I change to more efficient methods to produces plates and build more high level stuff. A lot of combustion fluid is byproduct of needing tons of tar in PyBlock.
yes the early to mid game is heavy affected in pyblock by how much tar you need for everything unlike normal pymods where you only have waste coal gas from making coke for science.

Crixomix
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:10 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by Crixomix »

Blokus wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:04 pm
immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:20 pm
Crixomix wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:51 pm
Ah I didn't see there was a web version, but I'm on my phone, would the web version work on a phone?

Edit: so is the formula supposed to be (t-15)/985 or (t-15)/1000? Cause the calculator linked says 1000 but someone else said 985?

Also, is the 42% efficiency the rounded number for turbine 1? Or is the output it says the rounded number? Meaning is the max output exactly what it says? Or is the efficiency exactly what it says? Because one of them has to be rounded.

Thanks.
constants 42% it is /1000 as far as i know

output is a rounded number in game since it had to be in MW , my calculator is very precise and i tested it in practice a lot
on phone not sure but there is a c++ version too that worked on my phone (android) some time ago
No, it is -15 and /985, because the baseline temperature of combustion mixture is 15C.
Well now we have some good old fashioned disagreement. I'm inclined to believe it's either (t-15)/985 or just t/1000, as that way they would both equal 1 at max temp. However, I've heard about the baseline of 15 before.

Also, does this mean 1 unit of combustion mixture at 1000 degrees is exactly one megajoule of fuel? And then you just multiply by the efficiency after that?

ulmennaleith
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:46 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by ulmennaleith »

Dividing max output of a turbine by the temp is close enough ...

For a turbine mk01 and 600°C mixture, 24.8*0.6=14.88 MW
With the correct method (according to crixomix and blokus), ((600-15)/985)*24.8=14.73 MW
Immortal_sniper's calculator gives 14.742 MW

Crixomix : combustion turbine mk01 / efficiency = 24.8/0.42=59.05
That's for 60 units of 1000°C mixture per second, so 59.05/60=0.984, close to 1 MW. But it's harder to calculate : assuming 60 units of mixture per second, you have to do 59.05*0.42*0.6=14.88. But I guess there's still a problem with the 15°C baseline.

Anyway, just do max output of a turbine divided by temp :)

Crixomix
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:10 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by Crixomix »

ulmennaleith wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:12 pm
Dividing max output of a turbine by the temp is close enough ...

For a turbine mk01 and 600°C mixture, 24.8*0.6=14.88 MW
With the correct method (according to crixomix and blokus), ((600-15)/985)*24.8=14.73 MW
Immortal_sniper's calculator gives 14.742 MW

Crixomix : combustion turbine mk01 / efficiency = 24.8/0.42=59.05
That's for 60 units of 1000°C mixture per second, so 59.05/60=0.984, close to 1 MW. But it's harder to calculate : assuming 60 units of mixture per second, you have to do 59.05*0.42*0.6=14.88. But I guess there's still a problem with the 15°C baseline.

Anyway, just do max output of a turbine divided by temp :)
It's definitely close, but rounded. It could be anywhere between 24.75/.42 and 24.849/.42, which is .9821mj and .9861 mj per unit of 1000c mixture. So I'd like to know more exactly, along with is it the t-15/985 or 1000 thing.

Edit: actually this could support t-15/1000! Cause 1000-15 is 985 and then if fuel was worth 1mj at maximum but then multiplied by the t-15/1000, it would give a fuel value of .985mj to align with what the mk01 turbine shows.

ulmennaleith
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:46 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by ulmennaleith »

I think that's right, I didn't check ingame but immortal's calculator gives 24.822 MW for mk 1 turbine, 60 fluid/s, 1000°C, which would be ((1000-15)/1000)*60*0.42=24.822 MW

Also the code for combustion mixture shows " default_temperature = 15 " and " heat_capacity = "1KJ" ". So : 0 MW at 15°C and heat capacity is " Joule needed to heat 1 Unit by 1 °C. " (https://wiki.factorio.com/Prototype/Flu ... emperature). You need 985 KJ to heat 15°C mixture to 1000°C, and 985 KJ = 0.985 MW (that's where the (1000-15)/1000=0.985 comes from)

Crixomix
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:10 am
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by Crixomix »

Makes sense.

A little bit annoying that it can't just be 1mj though for my ocd lol.

fractalman
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:07 pm
Contact:

Re: PY POWER ANALISIS

Post by fractalman »

so i did a look in the other syngas recipes:
cal dust - NO
I treat that one as a way of voiding my excess coal dust. I just don't have the facilities set up to get any real use out of the ridiculous amount I get from across my factory (from tailings dust to coal quenching)-even briquettes barely even make a dent in how much I have.

Post Reply

Return to “PyMods”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users