Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

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Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by NewSwiss »

I'm new to Pymods, but an old hand at Bob's and Angel's. In my new run I'm only using PyMods, I'm and hour in and have yet to get even close to being able to research anything. Ores take 8:1 to make plates, then requiring steam to mine tin, then requiring a soil extractor, then a fawogae plantation, then a destructive still for coke, then glass, and all just to bootstrap a bit of science. I'm getting mobbed by biters before I I can research turrets (or anything else), and that's with only 10 burner miners and a single boiler making pollution.

It doesn't help that I spawned in a desert biome with few trees to soak up pollution, but this seems like some "marathon" setting is enabled. Am I missing something?

EDIT: just checked my production tab. Literally mined a few thousand iron/copper/coal/misc and still fell short of being able to make a single science pack...
Last edited by NewSwiss on Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by Blokus »

Yes, Py starts very slow if RO and HT are both included. I'm pretty sure most Py players play without biters at all; I certainly do. If not, I think you would need to turn pollution and evolution down dramatically to be able to make it to laser turrets before you get overrun.

A bit like Seablock or Omnimatter, you wind up needing to tech out of your problems instead of just scaling out of them. In particular, molten iron out of unslimed iron creates a stupidly good ratio for iron ore to iron plates.

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by Light »

I'd suggest watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy while playing. It helps pass the time while you get simple things set up, and maybe when the movies are done you'll have a chest of science packs ready.

That's what I ended up doing when I gave this mod suite a try (I'm also an AAI/Angel/Bob old hand), but then I died to biters since I wasn't paying attention for a good hour while very slowly making science packs. If there's a secret to getting things done quicker, I sure didn't find it. Though I'm curious myself if there actually is one.

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by steinio »

My secret was https://mods.factorio.com/mod/leighzerscienceores

I guess there are more important things then research with Py.
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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by NewSwiss »

For the record, I'm an hour and a half into a new save and managed to pocket-craft my first research. The only way I was able to survive that long was to re-roll maps until I spawned in some grass/woods, which soaks up enough pollution to get the basics made. For the record, the early-game with this mod pack is broken with biters enabled. The fact that you need to mine 15000+ items in order to get enough materials for the turret research means you need ideal spawn conditions and you have to go painfully slow since you have no way of fighting back against more than a handful of biters.
Blokus wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:14 am
I'm pretty sure most Py players play without biters at all; I certainly do.
It seems like a good chunk of Factorio players turn biters off. Still, if a mod is almost unplayable with biters, then that should be made clear in advance.
Blokus wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:14 am
I think you would need to turn pollution and evolution down dramatically to be able to make it to laser turrets before you get overrun.
This is something that should either be taken care of by the mod or be clearly specified somewhere. I don't like changing settings off default, especially if I don't know what to set them to for a "standard" challenge. If I set them too hard, then it's basically 1-3 wasted hours before I realize it and get death-locked. If I set them too easy, then I might as well have just turned biters off from the get-go.
Light wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:38 am
I'd suggest watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy while playing. It helps pass the time while you get simple things set up, and maybe when the movies are done you'll have a chest of science packs ready. That's what I ended up doing when I gave this mod suite a try (I'm also an AAI/Angel/Bob old hand), but then I died to biters since I wasn't paying attention for a good hour while very slowly making science packs. If there's a secret to getting things done quicker, I sure didn't find it. Though I'm curious myself if there actually is one.
If I didn't have to worry about biters, I could scale everything up at 10x the rate I've got now. Biters are supposed to slow you down a bit, not have you hand-mining ores for the first 60 minutes because you can't afford the pollution of a couple extra miners. My issue is not with the speed/balance as a whole, but with how it seems to just assume you have biters disabled or gimped to some huge degree.
steinio wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:32 am
My secret was https://mods.factorio.com/mod/leighzerscienceores

I guess there are more important things then research with Py.
This feels too much like just consoling in some science.

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

NewSwiss wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:47 am
For the record, I'm an hour and a half into a new save and managed to pocket-craft my first research. The only way I was able to survive that long was to re-roll maps until I spawned in some grass/woods, which soaks up enough pollution to get the basics made. For the record, the early-game with this mod pack is broken with biters enabled. The fact that you need to mine 15000+ items in order to get enough materials for the turret research means you need ideal spawn conditions and you have to go painfully slow since you have no way of fighting back against more than a handful of biters.
Blokus wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:14 am
I'm pretty sure most Py players play without biters at all; I certainly do.
It seems like a good chunk of Factorio players turn biters off. Still, if a mod is almost unplayable with biters, then that should be made clear in advance.
Blokus wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:14 am
I think you would need to turn pollution and evolution down dramatically to be able to make it to laser turrets before you get overrun.
This is something that should either be taken care of by the mod or be clearly specified somewhere. I don't like changing settings off default, especially if I don't know what to set them to for a "standard" challenge. If I set them too hard, then it's basically 1-3 wasted hours before I realize it and get death-locked. If I set them too easy, then I might as well have just turned biters off from the get-go.
Light wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:38 am
I'd suggest watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy while playing. It helps pass the time while you get simple things set up, and maybe when the movies are done you'll have a chest of science packs ready. That's what I ended up doing when I gave this mod suite a try (I'm also an AAI/Angel/Bob old hand), but then I died to biters since I wasn't paying attention for a good hour while very slowly making science packs. If there's a secret to getting things done quicker, I sure didn't find it. Though I'm curious myself if there actually is one.
If I didn't have to worry about biters, I could scale everything up at 10x the rate I've got now. Biters are supposed to slow you down a bit, not have you hand-mining ores for the first 60 minutes because you can't afford the pollution of a couple extra miners. My issue is not with the speed/balance as a whole, but with how it seems to just assume you have biters disabled or gimped to some huge degree.
steinio wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:32 am
My secret was https://mods.factorio.com/mod/leighzerscienceores

I guess there are more important things then research with Py.
This feels too much like just consoling in some science.

YES the start is slow BUT it is even slower for you since you are starting with this mod pack . regarding QoL mods : waterfill and electrib boilers are sorta of a must , some train mod is very recommend

i would say use the fast start mod too , i keep biters on peacefull untill i think i can fend them off OR i play in creative and design a megabase

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

NewSwiss wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:01 am
I'm new to Pymods, but an old hand at Bob's and Angel's. In my new run I'm only using PyMods, I'm and hour in and have yet to get even close to being able to research anything. Ores take 8:1 to make plates, then requiring steam to mine tin, then requiring a soil extractor, then a fawogae plantation, then a destructive still for coke, then glass, and all just to bootstrap a bit of science. I'm getting mobbed by biters before I I can research turrets (or anything else), and that's with only 10 burner miners and a single boiler making pollution.

It doesn't help that I spawned in a desert biome with few trees to soak up pollution, but this seems like some "marathon" setting is enabled. Am I missing something?

EDIT: just checked my production tab. Literally mined a few thousand iron/copper/coal/misc and still fell short of being able to make a single science pack...
DONT SMELT ORES DIRECTLY there are better ways , use hot air at the start it s a +20% or so

I bootstrap science 1-2 then use trains and start my tran base a far bit away or make a ring arownd the starter base and start expanding , ore processing research is probably top priority !!!

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by NewSwiss »

immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:39 pm

DONT SMELT ORES DIRECTLY there are better ways , use hot air at the start it s a +20% or so
I'm not seeing this anywhere. Where did you find this?
immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I bootstrap science 1-2 then use trains and start my tran base a far bit away or make a ring arownd the starter base and start expanding , ore processing research is probably top priority !!!
I never use trains, belt and bots scale so well with Bob's Angel's.

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by Blokus »

NewSwiss wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:21 pm
immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:39 pm

DONT SMELT ORES DIRECTLY there are better ways , use hot air at the start it s a +20% or so
I'm not seeing this anywhere. Where did you find this?
It's part of Py Petroleum Handling. I don't recall when you first get access to it, but the recipes are done in the Advanced Foundry, which makes them a bit impractical to rush for because those are somewhat expensive buildings.
immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I bootstrap science 1-2 then use trains and start my tran base a far bit away or make a ring arownd the starter base and start expanding , ore processing research is probably top priority !!!
I never use trains, belt and bots scale so well with Bob's Angel's.
Are you playing plain Py or ABPy?

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by BlueTemplar »

Yeah, the hot air recipes are *not* available at start, you need 2 techs worth 85 science1 first :
viewtopic.php?p=441015#p441015
(Unless PyBlock has changed that? I don't think so...)
Which is completely normal, that a better recipe would be unlocked by research. And it's nice that we have one earlier than ore1 ! (Which requires even more steel for the machines involved...)

Also, unless this has changed from 0.16, IIRC he's going to need the Advanced Foundry anyway for Duralumin, long before he can get to advanced, non eye-wateringly-expensive steel smelting recipes at iron2...

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by NewSwiss »

Blokus wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:34 am
It's part of Py Petroleum Handling. I don't recall when you first get access to it, but the recipes are done in the Advanced Foundry, which makes them a bit impractical to rush for because those are somewhat expensive buildings.
Ah, I never installed petroleum handling because I thought it was just a utility mod (adding extra tanks or pipes or something). I'll definitely add it.
Blokus wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:34 am
Are you playing plain Py or ABPy?
Just Py this run, so I might end up needing trains. Though I tend to favor small/efficient builds and rarely feel the need to keep playing into the late=lategame.
BlueTemplar wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:27 am
Yeah, the hot air recipes are *not* available at start, you need 2 techs worth 85 science1 first :
viewtopic.php?p=441015#p441015
Thanks. I've gotten coal processing researched, but don't have Petroleum Processing, so I need to get that.

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by Riktol »

NewSwiss wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:39 pm
Blokus wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:34 am
It's part of Py Petroleum Handling. I don't recall when you first get access to it, but the recipes are done in the Advanced Foundry, which makes them a bit impractical to rush for because those are somewhat expensive buildings.
Ah, I never installed petroleum handling because I thought it was just a utility mod (adding extra tanks or pipes or something). I'll definitely add it.
Blokus wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:34 am
Are you playing plain Py or ABPy?
Just Py this run, so I might end up needing trains. Though I tend to favor small/efficient builds and rarely feel the need to keep playing into the late=lategame.
BlueTemplar wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:27 am
Yeah, the hot air recipes are *not* available at start, you need 2 techs worth 85 science1 first :
viewtopic.php?p=441015#p441015
Thanks. I've gotten coal processing researched, but don't have Petroleum Processing, so I need to get that.
IMO small and efficient is not possible with Pyanodon, it's all about long complex chains and huge machines in huge numbers.

One of the things you can do is use some of the plant producing machines (like fawogae plantations) to soak up pollution to keep your footprint down. For the record my game doesn't have any biters so that might not be as effective as I imagine.

In your earlier posts you've said a lot about things not being clear or explained or mentioned, that's just how Pyanodon's is and it's part of the experience (or so I tell my counselor). If you've come from Bob/Angel then you're expectations might be a bit in the wrong direction.

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

NewSwiss wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:21 pm
immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:39 pm

DONT SMELT ORES DIRECTLY there are better ways , use hot air at the start it s a +20% or so
I'm not seeing this anywhere. Where did you find this?
immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:39 pm
I bootstrap science 1-2 then use trains and start my tran base a far bit away or make a ring arownd the starter base and start expanding , ore processing research is probably top priority !!!
I never use trains, belt and bots scale so well with Bob's Angel's.
in py you often need to transport large amounts so a mega block system connected by train is my advice

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by NewSwiss »

Riktol wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:40 pm
IMO small and efficient is not possible with Pyanodon, it's all about long complex chains and huge machines in huge numbers.
I've always been able to go much smaller-scale than most other runs I've seen, but maybe PyMods are different. I'll post back when I get to the mid game.
Riktol wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:40 pm
One of the things you can do is use some of the plant producing machines (like fawogae plantations) to soak up pollution to keep your footprint down. For the record my game doesn't have any biters so that might not be as effective as I imagine.
This looks viable, especially since the energy balance on wood and fawogae farming is so favorable.
Riktol wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:40 pm
In your earlier posts you've said a lot about things not being clear or explained or mentioned, that's just how Pyanodon's is and it's part of the experience
I'm used to the complexity of production chains (Bob's white circuits and Angels petrochem are on par with anything I've ever seen). What I was upset about was that default biter settings are unplayable without an ideal spawn and REALLY SLOW start, and that isn't made clear (nor is any alteration or suggestion made for how to adjust biters).

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by Pridesfall »

Pyanodon is making a new mod called Alien Life that will have two different versions, one tailored to be played with biters and one without. So it sounds like that is up your ally.

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by YunoAloe »

Blokus wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:14 am
I'm pretty sure most Py players play without biters at all;
Lol, you're welcome to see my screenshots at https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/765 ... &view=grid to check my biter settings and ways to deal with them up to midgame. :) In a slightly unsorted manner. I'm playing ABPy+ though, so, weaponized. Also, on 100 or so times slowed down evolution, so at 425 hours it's at 0.92.

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by NewSwiss »

YunoAloe wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:44 am
Lol, you're welcome to see my screenshots at https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/765 ... &view=grid to check my biter settings and ways to deal with them up to midgame. :) In a slightly unsorted manner.
That's definitely a lot of biters...
YunoAloe wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:44 am
I'm playing ABPy+ though, so, weaponized.


Unless I'm mistaken, having A/B in there lets you smelt things at base tier WAY cheaper than Py stock. That's my main hurdle. I've mined 25k+ ores 5 hours into the game, but that only amounts to less than 1000 plates/etc, and I've gotten only ~200 basic science packs made. The early game is super rough since I can't just go nuts on burner miners to get enough stuff to make the higher efficiency machines. Even Py's basic processing machines take the equivalent of 15-20 minutes of mining time on my "small enough for the biters not to notice" base.
YunoAloe wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:44 am
Also, on 100 or so times slowed down evolution, so at 425 hours it's at 0.92.
Do you recall how long it took you to be able to have enough stuff being made that you could wall off and turret up?
Pridesfall wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:20 pm
Pyanodon is making a new mod called Alien Life that will have two different versions, one tailored to be played with biters and one without. So it sounds like that is up your ally.
That sounds good. I wonder how long it will be until it's done? I found the thread for anyone else curious: viewtopic.php?f=219&t=71351

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by NewSwiss »

For the record, things just doubled in speed when I switched over to combustion mixture power and electric miners. I hadn't realized how much more pollution burner miners made than electric, especially when using the powerhouse/turbine. Getting 'clean' power going will be a priority for any future runs...

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by YunoAloe »

NewSwiss wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:29 pm
Unless I'm mistaken, having A/B in there lets you smelt things at base tier WAY cheaper than Py stock.
Nope. In proper ABPy, base (simple furnace) smelting is still 10 or 8 to 1.
NewSwiss wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:29 pm
I've mined 25k+ ores 5 hours into the game
For Py, 5 hours is nothing.
NewSwiss wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:29 pm
The early game is super rough
Yep.
NewSwiss wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:29 pm
"small enough for the biters not to notice" base.
My map is nearly 100% covered with biters mixed with trees. Even the starting point, but I started with AAI Industries and the ship crash led to a forest fire, which also burned all the biters around there. :) I've disabled AAI Industries since then though as it doesn't work with ABPy.
NewSwiss wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:29 pm
Do you recall how long it took you to be able to have enough stuff being made that you could wall off and turret up?
AAI Chaingunners were available almost right away (just a couple of days) and they're better than turrets. I used them far into the game, 200 hours maybe, until advanced turrets became available. Also I mostly focused on destroying bases rather than defending mine, as ammo was too expensive.

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Re: Am I missing something or does the full PyMods mean an absurdly slow start?

Post by BlueTemplar »

Oh yeah, dealing with biters can be painful :
I finally managed to muddle through in my 0.16 Death World game to Iron processing 2,
which cuts down the cost of steel from the starting 80 ore / beam to iron1 33.33 ore/beam down to a tiny 1.39 ore/beam (less than vanilla, especially considering that the iron plates themselves only go down to 1.12 ore / plate !),
but, as you can see, it has taken me a long time :
0.16_py_iron2.jpg
0.16_py_iron2.jpg (507.44 KiB) Viewed 1442 times
On the other hand, I fucked it up by NOT beelining to iron1 then iron2 - and it's not like I wasn't aware that it couldn't happen, having played Angel's before !
So, my initial iron&copper deposits didn't last long
(I play with Very Small resource size and Very poor richness, as usual, but Normal Frequency, as it affects the other 2 settings in 0.16...)
and with biters, already up to red ones, having settled in the nearby forest, getting rid of them was quite painful !
Then I could only afford to have 2 miners per iron/copper on my secondary spots, as, unlucky me, they were desert-side. (Alien Biomes making fighting on an un-paved desert a losing proposition, as it dramatically cuts down your movement speed.)
Oh, also, no dodging spitter/worm shots in 0.16 !
Though, later, fighting Blue Biter settlers was actually easier, as, while I couldn't afford to kill them (regular ammo was useless, and I couldn't afford the dozens of grenades per biter required), I could fairly easily wall them in / belt them around until they got bored and went back home...

Finally, I've tried out dozens of power combinations, but only Fawongae => Coke => vanilla Boiler seems to be worth it, as Wood Processing Units, and especially, Combustion Turbines pollute way too much !

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