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I enjoy the puzzle aspects of building the complex chains pY requires even for basic circuits, but I usually grow bored before even reaching blue science. And the problem is that the ratios are such that everything is just damn slow. The 8:1 ore-plate ratio is a pain in the ass, especially since it never gets actually good (the best is what, 1:1?). The buildings require a bunch of resources to build which takes ages to create so you can't even scale the problem out. You can't build a mall until late in the game (because circuits) so you can't automate the problem out either. So you let the game run all night so that there is *some* buildup of resources and start the buildings and waiiiiiiiiiiiiit again. Boring.

Not only the ratios are somewhat broken (40:1 aluminum ore -> duralumin, which even means 400:1 for coal gas...) but the magnificient buildings aren't very good either. The first electric furnace is the same crafting speed as a stone furnace? What's the point then?

pY's very interesting in the layouts is requires to create, but it is tuned to be so slow it's just more annoying than pleasant. Is that deliberate? Can someone explain me why it is so? Should I just rescale everything privately so that I have fun again?

galibert wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:16 am I enjoy the puzzle aspects of building the complex chains pY requires even for basic circuits, but I usually grow bored before even reaching blue science. And the problem is that the ratios are such that everything is just damn slow. The 8:1 ore-plate ratio is a pain in the ass, especially since it never gets actually good (the best is what, 1:1?). The buildings require a bunch of resources to build which takes ages to create so you can't even scale the problem out. You can't build a mall until late in the game (because circuits) so you can't automate the problem out either. So you let the game run all night so that there is *some* buildup of resources and start the buildings and waiiiiiiiiiiiiit again. Boring.

Not only the ratios are somewhat broken (40:1 aluminum ore -> duralumin, which even means 400:1 for coal gas...) but the magnificient buildings aren't very good either. The first electric furnace is the same crafting speed as a stone furnace? What's the point then?

pY's very interesting in the layouts is requires to create, but it is tuned to be so slow it's just more annoying than pleasant. Is that deliberate? Can someone explain me why it is so? Should I just rescale everything privately so that I have fun again?

|The first electric furnace is the same crafting speed as a stone furnace? What's the point then?| that is from vanilla and the point is to be able to use modules and get rid of the fuel belt

why so slow ? because of sheer complexity
regarding the mall you need science 2 for logistics and then you can make a mall with 0.17 assembler changes i think that assebler1-2 can handle all buildings

The best plate recipes being 1:1 might actually not be such a bad idea to make integration easier with other mods expecting vanilla plate costs ?

BlueTemplar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:52 pm The best plate recipes being 1:1 might actually not be such a bad idea to make integration easier with other mods expecting vanilla plate costs ?

you can get more then 1:1 and now with productivity enabled here and there it will get even better

immortal_sniper1 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:08 pm |The first electric furnace is the same crafting speed as a stone furnace? What's the point then?| that is from vanilla and the point is to be able to use modules and get rid of the fuel belt

why so slow ? because of sheer complexity
regarding the mall you need science 2 for logistics and then you can make a mall with 0.17 assembler changes i think that assebler1-2 can handle all buildings

In vanilla the electric furnace has twice the speed of the stone furnace. It material requirements to build one are also roughly a fifth of pY's electric furnace.

Complexity has nothing to do with the pacing. Requiring 200 aluminum ore for a fast inserter (13 seconds of a full yellow belt!) is what sets it, not the complexity.

And what makes a mall impossible to do early-to-mid game is the circuit recipe. Which is not a problem as such, but kills solutions like "let inserters accumulate"...

And of course modules don't help because you don't have modules at that point in the game.

OG.

Py has always been a balance nightmare since its inception. I've tried it three times over the years and ended up watching a movie while waiting for basic tasks to complete. The mod fits that 'good in concept, but bad execution' role.

You may encounter some "B-but.. It's difficult and complex!" delusionals who believe that improper balance is something to praise, but you're entirely correct in that it's an absolute snoozefest waiting for anything to get done. It's poor design and undoubtedly pushed away more people within the first few hours than any other mod. Angel/Bob adds a lot to the game yet it's the most carefully balanced set of mods that keep you engaged from the start and has a balanced progression curve throughout, that's why they're the most loved overhaul mods on the portal. Py could most certainly achieve that if the balance was much more solid and carefully planned out, but don't hold your breath on that as it's already been a couple years.

Perhaps someday.

It's an opinionated mod-suite that doesn't really set out to be a crowd-pleaser. It's a shame because I think Pyanadon is the most talented graphics modder on the scene and his work deserves to be more popular. Still, it has a small but devoted following, and I cherrypick things like industry for some of the good stuff .

There did seem to be an issue (at least in 0.16), with the first smelting ratio improvements being hard to get, then the second ones coming too fast after that...

I'm not really sure what's the issue with the circuit recipe - I've gotten almost to science 2 (pretty much only the aluminum left to plug in), and I've basically ignored the "non-obvious" way to make circuits ?
(Yeah, what do you need so many fast inserters for ?)

disable RawOres.

pyanodon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:54 am disable RawOres.

Since pY kinda breaks down if you don't have either RawOres or bob's equivalent, and I was aiming for the pure, as-designed pY experience, this is kind of sad.

Does it mean that the rawores-induced slowness is by design, and if yes I'd love to know the reasoning behind it, or just that it's not tuned yet?

OG.

BlueTemplar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:36 pm There did seem to be an issue (at least in 0.16), with the first smelting ratio improvements being hard to get, then the second ones coming too fast after that...

I'm not really sure what's the issue with the circuit recipe - I've gotten almost to science 2 (pretty much only the aluminum left to plug in), and I've basically ignored the "non-obvious" way to make circuits ?
(Yeah, what do you need so many fast inserters for ?)

The issue, which isn't one per se, with the circuit recipe is that it's not automatable until relatively far in game, perhaps 80+ hours or so if you're not speedrunning, and it's required for almost every machine and inserter. So you can't have a mall until late, or automate building construction in general, so you can't kill the slowness through scaling.

You need fast inserters just to be able to fill the machines at a reasonable rate given how much they ask for. I remember reading somewhere that loaders are even recommended...

OG.

Oh, right, I just hand-crafted the circuits themselves... I was much more concerned about Iron/Lead on my Death World than Copper/Wood !
I doubt about 80 hours, I'm at 23 hours, and looks like I'll be able to get circuits automated before 30 !

As for refilling/emptying buildings - Py buildings tend to be much bigger - allowing for many more inserters - is that not enough ?
(Note that long inserters are faster than basic ones too, and don't cost more circuits...)

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/kingarthur/PyCoalTBaA - this has a customizable multiplier for Py machines outputs.

Also I made this mod for myself because I had the same issues and also UPS problems and using AB to get the metals didn't feel the same

viewtopic.php?f=219&t=67117

It's still fun to do the chains it just wasn't as fun getting so few plates

galibert wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:55 pmComplexity has nothing to do with the pacing. Requiring 200 aluminum ore for a fast inserter (13 seconds of a full yellow belt!) is what sets it, not the complexity.

And what makes a mall impossible to do early-to-mid game is the circuit recipe. Which is not a problem as such, but kills solutions like "let inserters accumulate"...

I get the feeling you're trying to approach these mods with a vanilla Factorio mentality. That's not a good idea. Py factories aren't build and forget, you're going to come back to them often as you unlock processes to make them better. The general pattern is to start you with a crappy initial recipe, which you use to bootstrap yourself into a better (but more complex) design, and you use that to build an even better (but even more complex) one, until you reach the point where all the crap you'd need to build for the next stage just isn't worth the better production... yet.

200 Al ore for 1 duralumin plate sucks, sure. But you only need enough to make a couple hundred science 2, which will get you direct smelting tech to produce duralumin for something like six ore instead. Personally I'd agree that the direct recipe is a little too egregiously inefficient, but it does motivate you to get through the research quickly and not piss about trying to make fast inserters right from the start. They'll come in time. And a mall is right out. Just, seriously. It's not happening any time soon.

[ETA] Just consider everything you build to be temporary. It doesn't have to be optimized, it just has to work, because you're going to be tearing it up eventually anyway. You WILL need more space.

galibert wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:18 pm
Since pY kinda breaks down if you don't have either RawOres or bob's equivalent, and I was aiming for the pure, as-designed pY experience, this is kind of sad.

pyRO isnt requiered to play pymods. Its a mod that add ores. You can still play without it if you want.


Also...people complain about low ore/plate yield probably because never reached the medium levels of refining...a full chain can give you way more than 3plates per ore.

Ok, I reloaded my 0.16 game (tell me if anything has changed in 0.17...) :

galibert wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:55 pm In vanilla the electric furnace has twice the speed of the stone furnace. It material requirements to build one are also roughly a fifth of pY's electric furnace.

Complexity has nothing to do with the pacing. Requiring 200 aluminum ore for a fast inserter (13 seconds of a full yellow belt!) is what sets it, not the complexity.

Duralumin is a bad example for 4 reasons :

1.) Vanilla furnaces plainly cannot craft duralumin.

2.) At the same time that you get that duralumin recipe (science 1), you also get the first upgrade that almost halves the cost to make one from 40 Al ore to 20 Al ore and 6 Borax. And it also seems to about halve the number of required machines, though the new ones are certainly going to be much more expensive... compared to vanilla stone furnaces (perhaps too much?)

3.) In my experience, I'm mostly hungering for iron, and swimming in aluminum. But YMMV.
I'm certainly going to rush for the first steel upgrade once I set up science 2 - a steel plate goes from 33 iron ore to... 1.39 !!!
(Wow, sounds WAY too good for just science 2... especially when iron plates "only" go from 3.33 to 1.12... with the same research as steel !
P.S.: But then I see that there's Stainess Steel "waiting in line" for later buildings ? Sounds expensive !)
But I'm still upgrading aluminium first to its science 1 upgrade, halving that science cost from 7k ore to 3.5k ore seems still worth it...

4.) As I already mentioned - I see that I haven't built a single fast inserter, despite having copper and aluminum in excess
(while I have 108 regular, 8 long, and 1 filter insterter...)
- so I still don't know what you would need fast inserters for ?

galibert wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:55 pm And what makes a mall impossible to do early-to-mid game is the circuit recipe. Which is not a problem as such, but kills solutions like "let inserters accumulate"...

Why would you even want a mall early-to-mid game ? Aren't malls generally for past mid-game, when you start to place dozens of buildings at once, using upgraded conbots ?

pyanodon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:47 pm
Also...people complain about low ore/plate yield probably because never reached the medium levels of refining...a full chain can give you way more than 3plates per ore.

Is this really true? I must be doing something wrong. Which metals can you get 3 plates per ore? Is this only after sintering and everything? Very few people have ever gotten yellow science to get that far.

I'd have to go back and check but none of the tier3 tech gets you 1:1 AFAIK (maybe iron? Again have to check) so that's probably what people are complaining about

TwentyEighty wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:49 pm

pyanodon wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:47 pm
Also...people complain about low ore/plate yield probably because never reached the medium levels of refining...a full chain can give you way more than 3plates per ore.

Is this really true? I must be doing something wrong. Which metals can you get 3 plates per ore? Is this only after sintering and everything? Very few people have ever gotten yellow science to get that far.

I'd have to go back and check but none of the tier3 tech gets you 1:1 AFAIK (maybe iron? Again have to check) so that's probably what people are complaining about

i think nexelite and/or chrome maybe iron too as you suspect i did thee math once but i can't find the paper but i remember some chains had very large gains

BlueTemplar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:50 pm But I'm still upgrading aluminium first to its science 1 upgrade, halving that science cost from 7k ore to 3.5k ore seems still worth it...

Ok, scratch that, Ball Mill + Electric Arc Furnace + Casting Unit are alone 213 iron and 80 steel plates, for a whopping total of 3.4K iron ore !! (and some borax)
Since iron is my bottleneck, I'm going for Iron Processing 2 first.