pY Raw Ores Discussion

pyanodon's mods are here

Moderator: pyanodon

Post Reply
Zemoff
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:56 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Zemoff » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:38 pm

removing iron from grade 1 iron is intended? iron from molten iron is horrible for pollution and worst then iron from ore iron. basic oxigen furnanance need 10 funance with 500kw and 50 pollution and this kill for me enemy evolution progression.

User avatar
pyanodon
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by pyanodon » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:46 pm

my mods arent known for being enviromentally friendly. Thats will come in pyAE, if happens.
pY Coal processing mod
Discord: Pyanodon #5791

Zemoff
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:56 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Zemoff » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:19 pm

i dont want to be aggressive and happy for all changes if they worked as intended.

super_aardvark
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:27 am
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by super_aardvark » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:48 pm

First of all, this is an amazing mod, so thanks for all your hard work on it.

I just started playing this a few days ago, and I've been trying to work toward the first step up in iron smelting efficiency. I see things changed a bit in the most recent update (processed->molten went from 2 ore/plate to 3.333), so I think my information is current.

I noticed some things that could be improved about the tech tree. Specifically, I've noticed a lot of traps where it looks like I unlocked something, but in fact other techs are required to actually use it.

A prime example: Coal Processing 1 unlocks a recipe "Coal gas" that produces coal gas, flue gas, and ash from tar and pressured air (btw, this should be either "pressurized air" or "compressed air"). This would be a very useful recipe, as there's not much I can do with Tar at this point. However, the Pressured Air can't be produced until I research Filtration, which is green science, and has Coal Processing 2 as a prerequisite. It makes no sense for Coal Processing 1 to unlock a recipe that requires this.

Another example: I can get Iron Ore processing 01 which unlocks the Processed Iron Ore recipe. However, this can only be made in a Jaw Crusher, which is a separate technology. Furthermore, actually building the Jaw Crusher requires Duralumin, which means I need to research Electronics, Automation 2, Engine, Crusher, and Aluminum Ore processing 01 before I can make use of Iron Ore processing 01, but none of these are prerequisites. (I also just noticed that direct smelting of Processed Iron Ore, which is less efficient at 5 ore/plate, requires Iron Ore processing 02 -- seems backwards). Aluminum processing should be a prerequisite of Crusher, or else unlock Duralumin at an earlier tech, and Crusher should be a prerequisite of most or all of the other whatever Ore processing techs involve crushing the ore.

There are more of these. Local Radar requires no tech, but can't be built without Engine. Why not have Engine tech unlock Local Radar? Etc.

Some techs unlock lots of different things, so obviously there are going to be some cases like these, and that's fine. Mining Machines 01 unlocks Casting Unit mk01 which requires Engine, but it also unlocks other things which don't require Engine, so... no problem. But if an unlock can be moved down the tech tree without affecting your ability to actually use it, why not move it down?

User avatar
pyanodon
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by pyanodon » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:22 pm

*taking notes*
pY Coal processing mod
Discord: Pyanodon #5791

User avatar
Arch666Angel
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1603
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:52 am
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Arch666Angel » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:37 am

pyanodon wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:22 pm
*taking notes*
Stop scribbling and get to work you lazy one! :D

User avatar
pyanodon
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by pyanodon » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:57 am

hahahahahaha i will.
pY Coal processing mod
Discord: Pyanodon #5791

Therenas
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:10 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Therenas » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:22 pm

Having adjusted a lot of the stack sizes to 500, it would be nice if normal gears and wood 'panels' could also stack higher.

User avatar
pyanodon
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by pyanodon » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:27 pm

Therenas wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:22 pm
Having adjusted a lot of the stack sizes to 500, it would be nice if normal gears and wood 'panels' could also stack higher.
noted!
pY Coal processing mod
Discord: Pyanodon #5791

Lorash
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:34 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Lorash » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:36 pm

I just started a playthrough with all PyMods and nothing else (other than QoL stuff), and it seems that early game defense is extremely difficult. You need to know exactly what to build and rush turrets/bullets early, but you don't have time for that if you're playing for the first time and just discovering it. You start off with 10 magazines of bullets, and for a long time that's all you have and wooden fences.
  • Initial smelting (10 X ore -> 1 X plate) gives off high amounts of pollution.
  • Turrets require science 1, which requires glass, which requires quartz, which is very difficult to get started rapidly.
  • Bullets require lead, which requires acetylene to mine, which is locked behind multiple techs and is nigh impossible to get going in the small time frame that your original 10 magazines give you.
Solutions that I thought of include having a low-tier magazine that is crafted from iron ore (maybe have it handcrafted only to suggest that you really should be using lead), and potentially starting the game with turrets unlocked.

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:20 pm

Lorash wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:36 pm
I just started a playthrough with all PyMods and nothing else (other than QoL stuff), and it seems that early game defense is extremely difficult. You need to know exactly what to build and rush turrets/bullets early, but you don't have time for that if you're playing for the first time and just discovering it. You start off with 10 magazines of bullets, and for a long time that's all you have and wooden fences.
  • Initial smelting (10 X ore -> 1 X plate) gives off high amounts of pollution.
  • Turrets require science 1, which requires glass, which requires quartz, which is very difficult to get started rapidly.
  • Bullets require lead, which requires acetylene to mine, which is locked behind multiple techs and is nigh impossible to get going in the small time frame that your original 10 magazines give you.
Solutions that I thought of include having a low-tier magazine that is crafted from iron ore (maybe have it handcrafted only to suggest that you really should be using lead), and potentially starting the game with turrets unlocked.
or use a mod that gives at the beginning like 20 lasers

Lorash
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:34 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Lorash » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:22 pm

immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:20 pm
or use a mod that gives at the beginning like 20 lasers
I can cheat of course, but I'd rather have a balanced (doesn't need to be easy, but reasonable!) challenge with peaceful off. Right now it feels like that I need to roll a map so I end up in the middle of a dense forest, and execute a rush towards lead perfectly with mimimal pollution. No choices or tradeoffs anywhere.

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:22 pm

Lorash wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:22 pm
immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:20 pm
or use a mod that gives at the beginning like 20 lasers
I can cheat of course, but I'd rather have a balanced (doesn't need to be easy, but reasonable!) challenge with peaceful off. Right now it feels like that I need to roll a map so I end up in the middle of a dense forest, and execute a rush towards lead perfectly with mimimal pollution. No choices or tradeoffs anywhere.
i find early game defense in vanilla very frustrating and i always play on peacefull

Sworn
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:10 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Sworn » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:54 pm

Note sure if it's intended, but the new ores that require fluids, aluminium for example, that take 10 coal gas per operation. The miner don't work until it gets 100 units of the fluid, than jump down to 50 and start getting up again, it works for some iterations and stop again until it has 100 fluids.

Very easy to see if you have slow fluid production that don't attend 10 units that fast

super_aardvark
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:27 am
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by super_aardvark » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:48 pm

pyanodon wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:22 pm
*taking notes*
Excellent :) I'm probably getting into telling-you-how-to-do-your-job territory here, but I've got a couple of ideas for how to handle some of the specific issues I brought up.
  • I can make a Pressure Pump pretty cheaply with the tech I already have. It only produces Vacuum, but if it can do that, surely it could create pressurized air as well. Then I could use that Coal Gas recipe as soon as it's unlocked, which would be a big help in mining Borax for iron smelting.
  • If instead you were to switch the Iron Ore processing 1 and 2 (so the simpler, less efficient direct smelting of processed iron comes first), then I wouldn't need the Borax until green science, at which time I could also get Filtration for the pressurized air. The coal gas recipe should still be moved to Filtration tech in this case (or maybe to Coal Processing 2 -- you'd only be one tech away then, that's not so bad).
Anyway, just some ideas. Cheers!

minno
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by minno » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:04 am

Sworn wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:54 pm
Note sure if it's intended, but the new ores that require fluids, aluminium for example, that take 10 coal gas per operation. The miner don't work until it gets 100 units of the fluid, than jump down to 50 and start getting up again, it works for some iterations and stop again until it has 100 fluids.

Very easy to see if you have slow fluid production that don't attend 10 units that fast
It's part of how mining works in the base game. Miners take 10x as much as one ore requires, and then produce 10 ores before taking any more fluid.

User avatar
pyanodon
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1625
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:42 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by pyanodon » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:25 am

super_aardvark wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:48 pm
pyanodon wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:22 pm
*taking notes*
Excellent :) I'm probably getting into telling-you-how-to-do-your-job territory here, but I've got a couple of ideas for how to handle some of the specific issues I brought up.
  • I can make a Pressure Pump pretty cheaply with the tech I already have. It only produces Vacuum, but if it can do that, surely it could create pressurized air as well. Then I could use that Coal Gas recipe as soon as it's unlocked, which would be a big help in mining Borax for iron smelting.
  • If instead you were to switch the Iron Ore processing 1 and 2 (so the simpler, less efficient direct smelting of processed iron comes first), then I wouldn't need the Borax until green science, at which time I could also get Filtration for the pressurized air. The coal gas recipe should still be moved to Filtration tech in this case (or maybe to Coal Processing 2 -- you'd only be one tech away then, that's not so bad).
Anyway, just some ideas. Cheers!

not gonna happens xD
pY Coal processing mod
Discord: Pyanodon #5791

TwentyEighty
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:11 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by TwentyEighty » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:38 pm

super_aardvark wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:48 pm
First of all, this is an amazing mod, so thanks for all your hard work on it.

I just started playing this a few days ago, and I've been trying to work toward the first step up in iron smelting efficiency. I see things changed a bit in the most recent update (processed->molten went from 2 ore/plate to 3.333), so I think my information is current.

I noticed some things that could be improved about the tech tree. Specifically, I've noticed a lot of traps where it looks like I unlocked something, but in fact other techs are required to actually use it.

A prime example: Coal Processing 1 unlocks a recipe "Coal gas" that produces coal gas, flue gas, and ash from tar and pressured air (btw, this should be either "pressurized air" or "compressed air"). This would be a very useful recipe, as there's not much I can do with Tar at this point. However, the Pressured Air can't be produced until I research Filtration, which is green science, and has Coal Processing 2 as a prerequisite. It makes no sense for Coal Processing 1 to unlock a recipe that requires this.
Unless I'm missing something the research trap is way worse than that. I don't think I can even build the building that produces pressurized air until the "Diamond 3" tech, which is forever away. I spent precious green science points on Filtration, etc in hopes of getting more coal gas for more aluminum mining. Aluminum is my bottleneck right now.

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:08 pm

TwentyEighty wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:38 pm
super_aardvark wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:48 pm
First of all, this is an amazing mod, so thanks for all your hard work on it.

I just started playing this a few days ago, and I've been trying to work toward the first step up in iron smelting efficiency. I see things changed a bit in the most recent update (processed->molten went from 2 ore/plate to 3.333), so I think my information is current.

I noticed some things that could be improved about the tech tree. Specifically, I've noticed a lot of traps where it looks like I unlocked something, but in fact other techs are required to actually use it.

A prime example: Coal Processing 1 unlocks a recipe "Coal gas" that produces coal gas, flue gas, and ash from tar and pressured air (btw, this should be either "pressurized air" or "compressed air"). This would be a very useful recipe, as there's not much I can do with Tar at this point. However, the Pressured Air can't be produced until I research Filtration, which is green science, and has Coal Processing 2 as a prerequisite. It makes no sense for Coal Processing 1 to unlock a recipe that requires this.
Unless I'm missing something the research trap is way worse than that. I don't think I can even build the building that produces pressurized air until the "Diamond 3" tech, which is forever away. I spent precious green science points on Filtration, etc in hopes of getting more coal gas for more aluminum mining. Aluminum is my bottleneck right now.
py said al should be expensive so going up the tech prcessing should be a priority

TwentyEighty
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:11 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by TwentyEighty » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:07 pm

Yeah that's fine, it's just the misleading research tree that I didn't like. It would be like in vanilla if you researched railways to unlock train tracks, and then when you try to make them you find out the track-making building is locked behind a blue-science tech. This situation doesn't happen in vanilla.

This is my favorite mod i've played so far btw. There's REAL incentive to build the stupid complicated smelting setups to go from 1 to 2 to 4 etc plates per 10 ore. When reading the description you think "No problem, I can just go the easy route and mine more", which I guess can work for iron and copper, but then you see how much and how complicated the mining fluid gets for each ore. Then the stupid complicated smelting setups look pretty attractive. Good design. In angels you can just fill warehouses with stone for the most part and call it a day.

Post Reply

Return to “PyMods”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users