pY Raw Ores Discussion

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aklesey1
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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by aklesey1 »

shadowpho wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:58 pm
1.8.9, so pretty recent, Changelog doesn't say anything about nexelit updates since then.

I can scan 1.9.0 to see if that's where it got fixed maybe?

I ran the first calculations with helmod from pulp 04. However, the second part is just looking at recipes, can you check what yours looks like? I think the 6 high grade nexelit -> 1 reduced is the broken part
In version 1.9.1 2 sintered nexelit + 4 borax = 135 molten nexelit
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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by BlueTemplar »

Screenshots of Helmod might help ?

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by aklesey1 »

BlueTemplar wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:11 pm
Screenshots of Helmod might help ?
I told him about helmod and about his versiun of PYRO
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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

not again

not sure if i should look into it with pyAL in the next weeks or so

BUT if py tells me to look into it and fix it i would .

maybe i should do another run down the chain for all ores ?

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Blokus »

For me, to get 100 molten nexelit in the following ways take the following amounts of high grade nexelit:

Melting reduced: 15 high grade.
Melting high grade: 5.9 high grade
Melting sintered, where the thing that you sintered was reduced nexelit: 4.5 high grade
Melting sintered, where the thing that you sintered was high grade nexelit: 1.5 high grade

This is in 1.9.1.

A related example is chromium, where melting 25 chromite sand directly is better than making a reduced chromium and then melting that. I didn't find any other examples at the reduced tier. (Seems like maybe you fixed some of the issues that were there when I last looked at this ~6 months ago.)

The fact that reducing and then sintering is worse than just sintering is something I hadn't seen before. That's caused by the fact that high grade nexelit -> reduced nexelit takes more than 2 high grade nexelit to produce a reduced nexelit.
Last edited by Blokus on Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by shadowpho »

immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:37 pm
not again

not sure if i should look into it with pyAL in the next weeks or so

BUT if py tells me to look into it and fix it i would .

maybe i should do another run down the chain for all ores ?

I mean it's not game breaking or anything, just a tad awkward for nexelit and chromium. Plus to get to that point requires 500 hours of gameplay... so there's that.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Pridesfall »

shadowpho wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:11 pm
Plus to get to that point requires 500 hours of gameplay... so there's that.
So it comes into play almost halfway through a run? lol

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Blokus »

Pridesfall wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:53 pm
shadowpho wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:11 pm
Plus to get to that point requires 500 hours of gameplay... so there's that.
So it comes into play almost halfway through a run? lol
Not really, this is actually pretty close to the end of a 1-rocket run. If you don't get into the realm of launching numerous rockets or doing an endgame mod like Space Extension, unlocking rocket silo is basically the end of the game.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

Blokus wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:55 pm
For me, to get 100 molten nexelit in the following ways take the following amounts of high grade nexelit:

Melting reduced: 15 high grade.
Melting high grade: 5.9 high grade
Melting sintered, where the thing that you sintered was reduced nexelit: 4.5 high grade
Melting sintered, where the thing that you sintered was high grade nexelit: 1.5 high grade

This is in 1.9.1.

A related example is chromium, where melting 25 chromite sand directly is better than making a reduced chromium and then melting that. I didn't find any other examples at the reduced tier. (Seems like maybe you fixed some of the issues that were there when I last looked at this ~6 months ago.)

The fact that reducing and then sintering is worse than just sintering is something I hadn't seen before. That's caused by the fact that high grade nexelit -> reduced nexelit takes more than 2 high grade nexelit to produce a reduced nexelit.
fix is done
py just needs to look over it and post it

high grade >sinteded direct recipe 1:1 to ( 4 high to 1 sintered)
reduced>molten 40>164


there was a good reason it was 6:1 there

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by reapersms »

After spending a couple of hours with rolling RSO spawns and getting no coal, PSA:

the most recent change pushed in a change that removes "coal" from the spawns, forcing the immediate start to require raw coal distillation.

do not reduce raw coal to trace amounts, or you will have a bad time

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

reapersms wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:25 am
After spending a couple of hours with rolling RSO spawns and getting no coal, PSA:

the most recent change pushed in a change that removes "coal" from the spawns, forcing the immediate start to require raw coal distillation.

do not reduce raw coal to trace amounts, or you will have a bad time
yes we decided to remove regular coal so you have to use raw coal distillation to get enough coal to make the bit of science needed to unlock raw coal processing

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by reapersms »

which is nice and reasonable, just not listed in the changelog at the time =P

I was trying to use the settings from otaku showboat's stream, which knocked raw coal down to almost nothing. Had to dig into the github commit log to figure out why I wasn't getting anything burnable on the ground.

I think oil sands are set up similarily, hopefully they aren't a huge bottleneck later.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by razahin »

kingarthur wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:30 am
reapersms wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:25 am
After spending a couple of hours with rolling RSO spawns and getting no coal, PSA:

the most recent change pushed in a change that removes "coal" from the spawns, forcing the immediate start to require raw coal distillation.

do not reduce raw coal to trace amounts, or you will have a bad time
yes we decided to remove regular coal so you have to use raw coal distillation to get enough coal to make the bit of science needed to unlock raw coal processing

What should I be looking for in my starting area now since there is no coal? Do I just need to chop down all the trees?

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

razahin wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:28 pm
kingarthur wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:30 am
reapersms wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:25 am
After spending a couple of hours with rolling RSO spawns and getting no coal, PSA:

the most recent change pushed in a change that removes "coal" from the spawns, forcing the immediate start to require raw coal distillation.

do not reduce raw coal to trace amounts, or you will have a bad time
yes we decided to remove regular coal so you have to use raw coal distillation to get enough coal to make the bit of science needed to unlock raw coal processing

What should I be looking for in my starting area now since there is no coal? Do I just need to chop down all the trees?
Should have raw coal it burns just fine

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by reapersms »

Yeah, after readjusting things so the raw coal wasn't knocked down to 25% chance it showed up fine.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by razahin »

kingarthur wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:15 pm

Should have raw coal it burns just fine

Hmmmm I tried for a bit to get that to spawn in my starting area, but I haven't seen it. I'm using RSO though which might be why its not showing up.

EDIT: I turned off RSO and its started always showing up.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

razahin wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:30 pm
kingarthur wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:15 pm

Should have raw coal it burns just fine

Hmmmm I tried for a bit to get that to spawn in my starting area, but I haven't seen it. I'm using RSO though which might be why its not showing up.

EDIT: I turned off RSO and its started always showing up.
Rso probably needs updated for the change

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by razahin »

reapersms wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:25 am
After spending a couple of hours with rolling RSO spawns and getting no coal, PSA:

the most recent change pushed in a change that removes "coal" from the spawns, forcing the immediate start to require raw coal distillation.

do not reduce raw coal to trace amounts, or you will have a bad time
With the change to using Raw Coal for the start and the intention of introducing the player to Raw Coal distillation has any thought been given to improving the distillation recipe? Having just started playing PyMods recently, I found myself avoiding processing the Raw Coal because the immediate returns seemed extremely disadvantageous to my start. My thought process was as follows:

I need burnable fuel for my furnaces, burner mining drills, and boilers. Each piece of Raw Coal gives 3 MJ of energy which seems good. The distillation recipe gives 2 Coal (4 MJ) for 10 Raw Coal with a tiny bit of Coal Gas and Tar as byproducts that I can't use at the moment. So in effect I would be trading 30 MJ of fuel for 8, and it would require several Destructive Distillation Towers to convert the Raw Coal so it seems like wasted effort. By the time I might consider converting the Raw Coal I can generate more Coal by just growing and burning the mushrooms. Am I missing something?

If the intention is to have the player process Raw Coal I humbly suggest the following for your consideration:
  • Improve the Raw Coal distillation recipe by increasing the coal returned. Returning something like 8 coal instead of 2 yields a slight gain in total fuel value, and leads nicely into later processing lines.
- or -
  • Reduce the fuel value of Raw Coal to encourage processing, if it only had a value of 0.5 or 1 MJ it gives better incentive to prioritize the distillation.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

razahin wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:55 am
reapersms wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 6:25 am
After spending a couple of hours with rolling RSO spawns and getting no coal, PSA:

the most recent change pushed in a change that removes "coal" from the spawns, forcing the immediate start to require raw coal distillation.

do not reduce raw coal to trace amounts, or you will have a bad time
With the change to using Raw Coal for the start and the intention of introducing the player to Raw Coal distillation has any thought been given to improving the distillation recipe? Having just started playing PyMods recently, I found myself avoiding processing the Raw Coal because the immediate returns seemed extremely disadvantageous to my start. My thought process was as follows:

I need burnable fuel for my furnaces, burner mining drills, and boilers. Each piece of Raw Coal gives 3 MJ of energy which seems good. The distillation recipe gives 2 Coal (4 MJ) for 10 Raw Coal with a tiny bit of Coal Gas and Tar as byproducts that I can't use at the moment. So in effect I would be trading 30 MJ of fuel for 8, and it would require several Destructive Distillation Towers to convert the Raw Coal so it seems like wasted effort. By the time I might consider converting the Raw Coal I can generate more Coal by just growing and burning the mushrooms. Am I missing something?

If the intention is to have the player process Raw Coal I humbly suggest the following for your consideration:
  • Improve the Raw Coal distillation recipe by increasing the coal returned. Returning something like 8 coal instead of 2 yields a slight gain in total fuel value, and leads nicely into later processing lines.
- or -
  • Reduce the fuel value of Raw Coal to encourage processing, if it only had a value of 0.5 or 1 MJ it gives better incentive to prioritize the distillation.
no. no thought has been given to improving the distillation recipes as i made it terrible intentionally. its only there because there is like 2 recipes that actually need coal to make science to start unlocking things. its not meant to be good or used passed getting started. burn the raw coal and then unlock raw coal processing to get better coal returns or use fawogae to coal if you think its worth doing.

tldr. i did every thing i could to push you away from raw coal distillation as its a stop gap to fix science issues

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by razahin »

kingarthur wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:31 am

no. no thought has been given to improving the distillation recipes as i made it terrible intentionally. its only there because there is like 2 recipes that actually need coal to make science to start unlocking things. its not meant to be good or used passed getting started. burn the raw coal and then unlock raw coal processing to get better coal returns or use fawogae to coal if you think its worth doing.

tldr. i did every thing i could to push you away from raw coal distillation as its a stop gap to fix science issues
Thanks for answering, I'm happy with a "working as intended" response. For my early science coal I just used wood -> coal -> coke since the ratios we're better and I had an abundance of trees. From your answer ("or use fawogae to coal if you think its worth doing") it sounds like there might be a better option I'm missing. I've been operating under the assumption that I have to do coal processing for power until something like Nuclear. I'll have to do some exploring in the tech tree.

Thanks for all your hard work on this mod, I'm really enjoying it.

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