pY Raw Ores Discussion

[immortal_sniper1]

dont use the silver solder recipes , and yes silver atm is a problem so use it as little as possible

Yeah seriously. I saw that trap a mile away. I've also noted that soot can be turned into silver but the ratio is horrible (10 soot -> .3 silver), so that's really only helpful to use random byproduct soot lying around and could never be the backbone of silver production.

YES
i used that soot to make Zn for some local filters since you can make it from crude>Hoil>lube>something

[Sam_Daywalker]

I see you updated the lead chain. But i think you got something confused.

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/pyrawores ... 000b4377fa

While you improved Setup C, B is even worse if I am not mistaken.

[Crixomix]

So now at least the molten lead recipe at green science is SLIGHTLY more ore efficient than basic hotair, but it does still require borax, graphite, and quite a bit more power.

4.5MW + 20 lead ore + 17 foundries = 10 lead plate per sec (basic hotair smelting)

7.1MW + 18.67 lead ore + 20 buildings = 10 lead plate per sec (science02 molten lead smelting)

So overall still doesn't quite seem properly balanced. I'm not thinking it needs to be insanely better, and once again I realize you NEED to set up that chain to get silver. However, it's still underwhelming.

I think ore efficiency is a big deal with lead as the acetylene cost is very oppressive.

Ideas:

• Slightly improve the lead ore -> grade 1 lead conversion factor. Maybe 4->1 instead of 5->1. (ore efficiency improvement for both science01 and science02)
• Improve the grade 3 lead recipe to prove 1 grade 1 lead rather than 50%.
• Improve the speed of lead ore-> grade 1 lead. This is a very power hungry process and requires the most buildings out of any step.
• Improve the molten lead output of the recipe using lead dust (from 75 molten lead to 100? too much? Could even be 85-95) This would be something that would keep silver from receiving a buff but would buff lead plates.
• Require less acetylene for lead mining. This improves power requirements for lead overall since that's a reasonable cost to lead and silver in general.

My numbers are simply basic ideas and I'm definitely only thinking one or two of these buffs would be used at once. I appreciate the balancing you've done so far has made it at least slightly more ore efficient, but I'm not sure that going from 2 ore per plate to 1.87 ore per plate is enough of a buff. Because going from basic hotair smelting to science 02 is TWO tiers of science improvement. I would hope you end up somewhere closer to 1.0-1.4 ore per plate since you're putting so much energy into remaking your entire lead production.

[BlueTemplar]

In my (0.16) game I've just stockpiled all the grade 3 lead, and now am turning it into silver...

[immortal_sniper1]

So now at least the molten lead recipe at green science is SLIGHTLY more ore efficient than basic hotair, but it does still require borax, graphite, and quite a bit more power.

4.5MW + 20 lead ore + 17 foundries = 10 lead plate per sec (basic hotair smelting)

7.1MW + 18.67 lead ore + 20 buildings = 10 lead plate per sec (science02 molten lead smelting)

So overall still doesn't quite seem properly balanced. I'm not thinking it needs to be insanely better, and once again I realize you NEED to set up that chain to get silver. However, it's still underwhelming.

I think ore efficiency is a big deal with lead as the acetylene cost is very oppressive.

Ideas:

• Slightly improve the lead ore -> grade 1 lead conversion factor. Maybe 4->1 instead of 5->1. (ore efficiency improvement for both science01 and science02)
• Improve the grade 3 lead recipe to prove 1 grade 1 lead rather than 50%.
• Improve the speed of lead ore-> grade 1 lead. This is a very power hungry process and requires the most buildings out of any step.
• Improve the molten lead output of the recipe using lead dust (from 75 molten lead to 100? too much? Could even be 85-95) This would be something that would keep silver from receiving a buff but would buff lead plates.
• Require less acetylene for lead mining. This improves power requirements for lead overall since that's a reasonable cost to lead and silver in general.

My numbers are simply basic ideas and I'm definitely only thinking one or two of these buffs would be used at once. I appreciate the balancing you've done so far has made it at least slightly more ore efficient, but I'm not sure that going from 2 ore per plate to 1.87 ore per plate is enough of a buff. Because going from basic hotair smelting to science 02 is TWO tiers of science improvement. I would hope you end up somewhere closer to 1.0-1.4 ore per plate since you're putting so much energy into remaking your entire lead production.

1 i didnt realy look into power usage
2 same for recipe speed , maybe because of habit since i used to bootstrap all up to science 2 or 3 then go wield with train
3 hot air is only in pyPH and if one does not have it lead will be jumping like crazy
4 lead dust is not that great for lead since is is first source of silver , and you will probably need the silver more at that point
5 increasing the molten from 75 to 100 would mess up the next step then that would need a buff and so on
and there lis another problem after a point silver requirements explode and lead becomes a waste
7 i tried to reduce silver usage BUT py didnt write proved or not and there were no git changes so buffing lead is like not needed past a point

in my base it was like from high grade go with silver to the end and melt high grade lead strain , and even with that i still needed to void like 3/5 of my high grade lead , and as far as i saw i am not the only one

bottom line is that buffing lead past a point is not a good idea



8 yes mining lead is a pain that is why i used ground borers to begin with since i hate making acetylene , lots of coke and lime and there is no slacked to limestone recipe in order to loop the waste

[Blokus]

Lead ore + hot air is honestly pretty strong, I wouldn't be particularly opposed to a nerf to it if it were compensated by an appropriate additional buff to the initial lead ore -> lead dust chain. The actual lead dust -> molten lead numbers seem OK now. (Just in general the hot air rebalance seems like it should be a bit higher priority, as this has been a topic of discussion for more than 6 months now, and there are still several recipes like this one that go from 1 plate to 3. Processed iron would be a real head scratcher if it weren't for the fact that unslimed iron is so good.)

As for silver, high grade silver -> molten is a sixteenfold increase over lead dust + hot air -> silver plate in terms of lead ore usage. If you want that to be a blue tech that players rush to help them make subsequent blue, you've pretty much achieved that.

Also just a reminder that at least with all the mods enabled, ground borers don't help you with these kind of issues anymore. 20 lead is still 200 acetylene, plus the drill head and drilling fluid 1. And you don't get the benefit of mining prod research, either.

[BlueTemplar]

Have advanced ground boring recipes (lead and such) been moved to science2 ?

[Blokus]

Have advanced ground boring recipes (lead and such) been moved to science2 ?

No (but again if it were sp3 and the recipe was any good then it would be a viable thing to rush).

[BlueTemplar]

My point is that it should be then considered along lead tier 3 processing, shouldn't it ?

[ShadowGlass]

Hot Air shouldn't give more than 50% boost to anything. Honestly even that seems a bit much. Hot air is basically free as far as resources go. It costs a little bit of electricity, and that's it. Maybe a 1/3 improvement (33.33%) would be more appropriate. And it should give less and less (as a percentage) in higher tech levels.

Currently the Hot Air Lead recipe (and a few others) gives a 200% improvement in output, which is way too op and of course makes higher tier chains pointless.

[Blokus]

Hot Air shouldn't give more than 50% boost to anything. Honestly even that seems a bit much. Hot air is basically free as far as resources go. It costs a little bit of electricity, and that's it. Maybe a 1/3 improvement (33.33%) would be more appropriate. And it should give less and less (as a percentage) in higher tech levels.

Currently the Hot Air Lead recipe (and a few others) gives a 200% improvement in output, which is way too op and of course makes higher tier chains pointless.

They're all +2, it's generated by script. Some recipes like iron ore + hot air -> iron plate were then nerfed by having the baseline recipe that's available in an advanced foundry be bigger while preserving the ratio. For some reason several recipes were not nerfed in this way, including lead ore + hot air -> lead plate and processed iron + hot air -> iron plate.

It's also been mentioned that an overhaul to this system is in the works, I think I saw kingarthur mention that quite some time ago. But it hasn't come through yet.

[BlueTemplar]

Hot Air shouldn't give more than 50% boost to anything.

Why not, as long as it fits well with other tiers ? (What makes you think that any other tier is any more realistic ?)

[Sam_Daywalker]

I've looked at the Update. The order is still messed up. Updated the Imgur post. Also find it here separately:
https://imgur.com/6Ycek0Q

For Setup A) we have 2:1 (50% yield)
For Setup B) we have 1.66:1 (60% yield)
For Setup C) we have 1.86:1 (53% yield)

So again. C is worse than B. From my point ov view, we should have A and B each decreased by 1.5 or 2 plates.

Also find my Post here:
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/pyrawores ... 000b4377fa

[aklesey1]

Pyanodon,

Can I formally request a silver boost? This is pretty crazy expensive that to get .2 silver (needed for 1 circuit 2), I need 34 lead miners and 85 acetylene per second! That's almost 7 gasifiers to make acetylene! Even if silver had double the output, I still don't think it would be too easy to get.

i'm partially agree with this guy that silver chain is some weak bcuz its linked with lead plates getting which needed for propene, propene is needed for carbonyl sulfide, carbonyl sulfide is needed for z-3 reagent
May be we need buff at silver-zinc fluids production?
How do u like idea to inroduce propene getting from methanol just like in Angel's Petrochem, yes it can be more complex in comparsion with petrochem but i don't want to use so much lead plates, i think getting propene from syngas is first simpliest stage
I want to produce moe drilling fluids in PYPH so i need some more silver plates
I think 100 molten silver can get 20 or 25 plates as well as chromium plates of titanium plates

[immortal_sniper1]

Pyanodon,

Can I formally request a silver boost? This is pretty crazy expensive that to get .2 silver (needed for 1 circuit 2), I need 34 lead miners and 85 acetylene per second! That's almost 7 gasifiers to make acetylene! Even if silver had double the output, I still don't think it would be too easy to get.

i'm partially agree with this guy that silver chain is some weak bcuz its linked with lead plates getting which needed for propene, propene is needed for carbonyl sulfide, carbonyl sulfide is needed for z-3 reagent
May be we need buff at silver-zinc fluids production?
How do u like idea to inroduce propene getting from methanol just like in Angel's Petrochem, yes it can be more complex in comparsion with petrochem but i don't want to use so much lead plates, i think getting propene from syngas is first simpliest stage
I want to produce moe drilling fluids in PYPH so i need some more silver plates
I think 100 molten silver can get 20 or 25 plates as well as chromium plates of titanium plates

yes and no

1 there is tholen propen but that often is not a solution
2 PA propene is a HELL NO for all purposes
so you are left with the lead one
there is probably another recipe from pyPH but again that one was not great

regarding Ag-PB yes Ag is way under produced

in my all since base using lead for propane was not a problem since i had so much excess lead
i can say that you need like X2-4 more Ag then the chain gives compared to lead
in other words you need to void 50-75% of the lead you make

anyway both Pb and Ag are used in large amounts and having them bound to each other was probably not a great idea , unless you made all things work in perfect ratios ,

anyway aat some point the Ag demand surpass the Pb demand so you have 2 chaises :
1 void lead at some point doen the chain (i ended up voiding 3/5 of my high grade lead)
2 PA the extra silver (super expensive and i dont recommend it )

[aklesey1]

Why to void intermediate lead products?
Can't fully understood u
PA will require toooooooooo any energy and i need many molybdenum ore? its okey with nickel ore i can get it from tar and its all good with ceramics and ash and lubricant

[immortal_sniper1]

Why to void intermediate lead products?
Can't fully understood u
PA will require toooooooooo any energy and i need many molybdenum ore? its okey with nickel ore i can get it from tar and its all good with ceramics and ash and lubricant

since if you dont void them lead will back up and after that Ag will stop too
so the factory will be full of lead and starved of silver

atm if you melt high grade lead to plate u need to void 3-4/5 of the lead while you use all the silver that you get from sintering and reduceing thee high grade silver

[aklesey1]

Why to void intermediate lead products?
Can't fully understood u
PA will require toooooooooo any energy and i need many molybdenum ore? its okey with nickel ore i can get it from tar and its all good with ceramics and ash and lubricant

since if you dont void them lead will back up and after that Ag will stop too
so the factory will be full of lead and starved of silver

atm if you melt high grade lead to plate u need to void 3-4/5 of the lead while you use all the silver that you get from sintering and reduceing thee high grade silver

Ohh sorry sewriously casnt't unserstand urt word about voiding
May be u can show what u mean on screenshots - tell pls as many details as possible or there is a continuous confusion in words where i can't see the meaning

[BlueTemplar]

I've seen that there are several blue science Pb/Ag chains, so it should be possible to combine them to run one or the other depending on what you are lacking ?

[Blokus]

I'm really not sure what sniper is talking about, the lead/silver chain lets you turn a given blob of ore either entirely into lead or entirely into silver, regardless of how far you take the chain. There is no "byproduct" lead.