pY Raw Ores Discussion

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error0664
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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by error0664 »

Tierre wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:41 pm
My issue is with warmer brick production for hot air. I set up coke oven gas with temp of exactly 500 Celsius going in there and there it just sits and does nothing. Regenerator fluid box is full saying it is a coke oven gas of 500Celsius and yet its red and nothing happens....

Nevermind. Seems like a problem with fluid boxes ... They weren't even taking gas from pipes (though it is a correct gas and input). I ctrl-x and rebuilt it - and bam - it works... Never changed anything in my build....
do you still have issue with coke oven gas?
please see my comments on that in viewtopic.php?p=502628#p502628
feels like a very similar problem that you might run into

factoriogame1121
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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by factoriogame1121 »

Hello. Please add in the mod settings the ability to disable the initial area of a large amount of resources and the starter kit in the backpack. All this, of course, is undoubtedly useful, but personally, to all other difficulties, I have always liked the unpredictability of the start, followed by the search for ways to get out of the situation.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by ShadowGlass »

I've checked out the new multi-step Stainless Steel recipe, and while at first look it seems promising, it turns out it requires more than twice as much iron as the single step recipe.

Example, using High Grade Iron > Molten Iron path, and hot air versions of the recipes, for producing 100 Stainless Steel:

The original recipe: requires 62 Iron Ore Dust (258 Iron Ore).

The multi-step recipe:
  • requires 15 Iron Ore Dust for the molten steel in the recipe
  • requires an additional 115 Iron Ore Dust for the Fuel Rod MK03. The Fuel Rod also requires a large amount of Sulfuric Acid, which is likely to add even more iron cost.
So in total it needs 130 Iron Ore Dust (544 Iron Ore), not counting the Sulfuric Acid. The Fuel Rod requires almost 8 times as much iron than the Molten Steel in the recipe.

I assume this is not intended, and the multi-step version is supposed to be more efficient? I'd recommend reducing the Fuel Rod requirement at least by 10x, so it'll be competitive with the original recipe.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

ShadowGlass wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:30 am
I've checked out the new multi-step Stainless Steel recipe, and while at first look it seems promising, it turns out it requires more than twice as much iron as the single step recipe.

Example, using High Grade Iron > Molten Iron path, and hot air versions of the recipes, for producing 100 Stainless Steel:

The original recipe: requires 62 Iron Ore Dust (258 Iron Ore).

The multi-step recipe:
  • requires 15 Iron Ore Dust for the molten steel in the recipe
  • requires an additional 115 Iron Ore Dust for the Fuel Rod MK03. The Fuel Rod also requires a large amount of Sulfuric Acid, which is likely to add even more iron cost.
So in total it needs 130 Iron Ore Dust (544 Iron Ore), not counting the Sulfuric Acid. The Fuel Rod requires almost 8 times as much iron than the Molten Steel in the recipe.

I assume this is not intended, and the multi-step version is supposed to be more efficient? I'd recommend reducing the Fuel Rod requirement at least by 10x, so it'll be competitive with the original recipe.
i will look into it

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by ShadowGlass »

immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:51 am
i will look into it
Enriched Uranium Powder 40%, which is the main component of Fuel Rod MK03 needs 3 times more iron than uranium:
Not sure if that's intended.
20201021182656_1.jpg
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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

ShadowGlass wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:28 am
immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:51 am
i will look into it
Enriched Uranium Powder 40%, which is the main component of Fuel Rod MK03 needs 3 times more iron than uranium:
Not sure if that's intended.
20201021182656_1.jpg
i know that , it was X10 or so in the past not sure if py is wiling to lower it even more , i was thinking that maybe if the recipe is scales up it can help while the rods used are at 1

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by ShadowGlass »

Some feedback on the new ore generation: The big rocks don't seem to be that big any more. They used to have 8M ore each, now they only have a few 100k, much smaller than a regular ore patch in the same area.
20201110170144_1.jpg
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20201110170148_1.jpg
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These amounts would be fine for salt & sulfur, if I remember correctly those two used to have similar sizes before. Salt & sulfur mines are also available very early on in red science, so maybe they could have starting area placement too?

The big rocks are also not very rare. It seems they show up about the same frequency as regular patches. This is a map with everything on default settings (water/trees/cliffs off):
20201110170631_1.jpg
20201110170631_1.jpg (147 KiB) Viewed 634 times
I'd put the rock-type resources in 3 different tiers:
  1. Early game: Salt/sulfur/bitumen seep - as common as normal patches, starting area, richness as it is now
  2. Mid-game resources: Regolites, rare-earth, volcanic pipe, ancient remains - not really rare, but no starting area. Should be similar to niobium/moly patches
  3. Rare "bonus" resource: big ore rocks, big ancient remains: very rare, very rich (in the millions), if it's possible to do with the new ore-gen, then they should start showing up much farther away from the starting area, then other resources

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

ShadowGlass wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:41 am
Some feedback on the new ore generation: The big rocks don't seem to be that big any more. They used to have 8M ore each, now they only have a few 100k, much smaller than a regular ore patch in the same area.
20201110170144_1.jpg20201110170148_1.jpg

These amounts would be fine for salt & sulfur, if I remember correctly those two used to have similar sizes before. Salt & sulfur mines are also available very early on in red science, so maybe they could have starting area placement too?

The big rocks are also not very rare. It seems they show up about the same frequency as regular patches. This is a map with everything on default settings (water/trees/cliffs off):
20201110170631_1.jpg

I'd put the rock-type resources in 3 different tiers:
  1. Early game: Salt/sulfur/bitumen seep - as common as normal patches, starting area, richness as it is now
  2. Mid-game resources: Regolites, rare-earth, volcanic pipe, ancient remains - not really rare, but no starting area. Should be similar to niobium/moly patches
  3. Rare "bonus" resource: big ore rocks, big ancient remains: very rare, very rich (in the millions), if it's possible to do with the new ore-gen, then they should start showing up much farther away from the starting area, then other resources
still working on dialing in everything. ill look at changing some things. im assuming your not using rso right? default settings or changed values for like richness and all that?

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by ShadowGlass »

kingarthur wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:48 am
still working on dialing in everything. ill look at changing some things. im assuming your not using rso right? default settings or changed values for like richness and all that?
This was everything on default, no rso.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by torment »

Code: Select all

Version: 2.1.9
Date: 2020-11-15
  Changes:
    - Added fuel glow colors for the different tiers of uranium fuel cells in the reactor.
    - Removed sand casting from molten titanium and molten glass.
    - Added sand casting to glass made from molten glass.
This change introduce a deadlock when using PYAL too, cause we need glass to make microorganism mine to make red science pack, but sand casting need research "coal processing 1" first to unlock

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by kinnom »

torment wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:11 pm

Code: Select all

Version: 2.1.9
Date: 2020-11-15
  Changes:
    - Added fuel glow colors for the different tiers of uranium fuel cells in the reactor.
    - Removed sand casting from molten titanium and molten glass.
    - Added sand casting to glass made from molten glass.
This change introduce a deadlock when using PYAL too, cause we need glass to make microorganism mine to make red science pack, but sand casting need research "coal processing 1" first to unlock
To clarify his point; both research center MK01 and microorganism mine MK01 require glass.
no yes yes no yes no yes yes

kingarthur
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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

kinnom wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:37 pm
torment wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:11 pm

Code: Select all

Version: 2.1.9
Date: 2020-11-15
  Changes:
    - Added fuel glow colors for the different tiers of uranium fuel cells in the reactor.
    - Removed sand casting from molten titanium and molten glass.
    - Added sand casting to glass made from molten glass.
This change introduce a deadlock when using PYAL too, cause we need glass to make microorganism mine to make red science pack, but sand casting need research "coal processing 1" first to unlock
To clarify his point; both research center MK01 and microorganism mine MK01 require glass.
ya it was known and should be fixed now with 2.1.10

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by mrbaggins »

Is solder not balanced at all?

Default is 2leadplate (LP) + 1 Tin plate (TP) = 1 Solder

At Lead 1, you get the ability to use Molten Solder. 10 Molten = 1 Solder, or 1.4 if you use hot air.
You also get a recipe that adds tar to default 2LP + 1TP + 30tar = 20 Molten = 2 solder, so you get double returns. YAY!

At lead 2 you get 3 new recipes for molten solder. They suck.
  • 20Molten lead (LM) + 10 Molten Tin (TM) = 20 Molten solder = 2 solder.
  • BUT 20LM is 10 plates worth,
  • and 10TM is 5 plates worth.
  • So for 5 times the default recipe you only get double output. 2.8 if you use hot air. Still going backwards more than 40%
The second recipe is the same but with 30tar, to double the output. This isn't as bad, but is still FIVE TIMES input for FOUR TIMES output (5.6 with hot air). So for dealing with extra liquids, adding tar, and adding hot air, you get 10% more.

The third recipe is even more ridiculous.
  • 1 Copper plate (CP) + 1 Silver Plate (SP) + 3 TP + 30 tar = 40 molten. So we're aiming for either 4 or 5.6 solder here. It doesn't look too bad yet. But math out the silver plate.
  • 1 Silver plate has only one option at this point: 3 lead dust.
  • 3 lead dust has a single way to make lead, and is worth 67.5 molten lead.
  • 67.5 molten lead is worth THIRTY THREE lead plates. MORE if you use hot air.
So:
Default has an efficiency of 100%
Lead 1 lets you get 200% or 280% efficiency
Lead 2 gives you several options: 40%, 56%, 80%, 112%, and <15% (33 lead plates for 4 or 5.6 solder is already that low, the extra ingredients make it worse)

I haven't mathed out Lead3 and onwards, but it doesn't look promising, seeing as they use similar quantities. First one in lead 3 only gives 60 molten solder for 50 molten ingredients, one of which is silver. Second in lead 3 uses 1 silver + 5 lead plates, so the equivalent of 38 plates (more if you upgrade lead to use new lead recipes) for only 100 molten. The lead 4 recipe might have potential, depending on how molten silver works out. But I doubt it.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by pyanodon »

so, whats your fix to it?
pY Coal processing mod
Discord: Pyanodon #5791

mrbaggins
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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by mrbaggins »

Didn't expect that lol.

I'd say each tier should be 10-50% Bette than one before it. The easy way to adjust it is just raise or lower the solder outputs. Nerf lead1 a little, buff lead 2 a fair bit
The medium way is to adjust the inputs instead/as well.

In any case, here's some suggestions:

Lead1 should provide the first molten recipe as something like 3lead+2tin+10tar = 20 molten, making it about 30% better than default, and requiring a new ingredient.

Lead2, the basic molten lead and tin recipe should give 60 molten. Has same input cost as default recipe, but gives 20% more molten solder and the option to use it with hot air for the extra 40% gain. You basically now can choose whether to use tar or hotair

The molten lead, molten tin plus tar should give just a bit more molten. Upping that efficiency again by a bump for those that can use BOTH hotair and tar. Maybe 75 molten?

The silver recipes need a harder look, as silver interplays with lead to be way more expensive, and anyone with a brain would just use lead (currently).

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by ShadowGlass »

pyanodon wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:00 am
so, whats your fix to it?
There are two separate issues, molten solder & silver. I'm going to ignore hot air for all recipes, as it affects everything the same way. These are my suggestions:

1. Molten Solder
I think this issue was caused by the various balances the plates have gone through. Originally most plates were 10 molten -> 1 plate, but now they are 2 molten -> 1 plate or even better (copper is 1.667 molten -> 1 plate). Except silver, which stayed at 10 -> 1.

2. Silver
Silver is the metal that improves the most with better technology. At lead processing 2, one plate costs 52.5 lead ore, at lead processing 3 it's 4.15 and at LP4 it's 1.44. But even at the end it's 5 times more expensive than lead plate. Molten silver is only available from Lead Processing 3, which is fine, because silver plate at Lead Processing 2 would be way too expensive to be usable for solder at that stage.

Suggestion: Remove the plates -> molten solder recipes, except 'solder-1', they are redundant and make balancing harder because each metal has different molten->plate ratio. These are also the recipes with silver plates. Just keep the molten metals -> molten solder recipes. The recipe names to be removed are 'solder-2', 'solder-3'

Based on the above, the suggested recipe changes:
'solder-0': no change
'solder': Change to 50 Molten Solder -> 25 Solder, to be in line with the plates
'solder-1': Increase ingredients by 5x because of the above (10 Lead Plate, 5 Tin Plate, 150 Tar), maybe increase crafting time as well to 10
'solder-2': remove
'solder-3': remove
'molten-solder-0': no change
'molten-solder-1': no change
'molten-solder-2': increase molten copper ingredient to 15 (because the molten copper > copper plate ratio is different from other metals)
'molten-solder-3': change ingredients molten lead to 20, molten silver to 20 (silver plate is 5 times more expensive than lead plate, but molten silver is the same cost as molten lead)

Ore costs for 10 solder at each tech level after changes (tin ore: T, lead ore: L, copper ore: C)
  • Lead Processing 1
    solder-0: 60T 40L
    solder-1: 30T 20L
  • Lead Processing 2
    solder-0: 28T 31L
    solder-1: 14T 15.6L
    molten-solder-0: 14T 15.6L (no tar)
    molten-solder-1: 7T 7.8L
  • Lead Processing 3
    solder-0: 5.6T 15L
    solder-1: 2.8T 7.5L
    molten-solder-0: 2.8T 7.5L
    molten-solder-1: 1.4T 3.8L
    molten-solder-2: 2.8T 1.4L 1.5C
  • Lead Processing 4
    solder-0: 2.2T 5.8L
    solder-1: 1.1T 2.9L
    molten-solder-0: 1.1T 2.9L
    molten-solder-1: 0.55T 1.45L
    molten-solder-2: 1.1T 0.47L 0.8C
    molten-solder-3: 0.31T 0.81L

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by Firemonkey1412 »

There are some new recipes for the casting unit, which needs 4 fluids (3+hot air). These recipes (drillhead, leadcontainer,laborequipment) are not chooseable in the casting unit. Looks like a bug.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

Firemonkey1412 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:18 pm
There are some new recipes for the casting unit, which needs 4 fluids (3+hot air). These recipes (drillhead, leadcontainer,laborequipment) are not chooseable in the casting unit. Looks like a bug.
more or less since it is more fluids then the casting unit can handle now that it is known there will be a fix

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by GluAp »

First:

I want to give a huge 'Thank you' to Pyanodon and all the contributing mod authors for creating, extending and improving this wonderful mod suit.

I recently started a new Py (everything but AL) playthrough when 1.0 arrived. So far everything worked pretty well. But when I read about the 1.1 base game changes I decided to restart with 1.1 and so I did yesterday.
So far I have had some problems generating a decent map (ore generation). From reading the 1.1 release notes I noticed some changes to noise expressions - so if that's the culprit here I'll apologize pre-emtively ;)

Basically I have the feeling that the resource generation doesn't respond very well to the generation settings. Please note that I generated several map but the problems stay the same.
  1. Starting area: I have around 12 different types of ore smushed together in less than 20 chunks. Practically no space in between. Sometimes even oil (bitumen seep) and niobium. That's somewhat irritating.

    Starting Area.png
    Starting Area.png (615.61 KiB) Viewed 165 times

    I tried RSO which had a similar result. Everything really close together in the starting are, followed by nothingsness and much farther away fairly regular ore distribution. Do you know if this is a Py problem or RSO?

    Starting Area RSO.png
    Starting Area RSO.png (960.83 KiB) Viewed 165 times
  2. Distribution of 'big rocks' (reserves, e.g. 'coal rock', 'big quarz veine' ..). I think they could spawn a lot further away from the starting area, since you can't use them early on anyway.
    When I played the Py Suit in 1.0 I really liked that I had to search for niobium some 60 chunks away from starting area. The desperation when you can't find resources to progress further and incentives you to build trains is great :D
  3. The ore 'frequency' setting imo feels like it could work 'better'. Namingly I turned down everything (but raw coal) to the lowest possible setting (17%) and still everything is cluttered together. The spaces between ore patches could be bigger I think. I think the Py suit is supposed to be played with heavy train usage, so imo ore distribution should be even more spaced out than train world. Further in this example raw coal (set to 150%) had the same amount of ore patches as other ores set to 17%.
  4. The oil sands resources areas are approx. 5 to 20 times bigger than anything else on the map, despite them beeing turned down to lowest possible size (17%).
    Whereas Raw Coal, set to 150% frequency and 600% size has the same amount of resource fields and field size as all the others (17% frequenzcy and 100% size).
    But why?

    Oil Sands.png
    Oil Sands.png (337.21 KiB) Viewed 165 times

I tried using RSO, but somehow this made resource distribution worse and better at the same time (imo). But I'd rather use the ingame resource generator.

Again - I really appreciate your work and will play the py suit as is. This is merely my view and probably doesn't apply to other players. Nevertheless I think if you can tune the resource generation a little bit the game experience might get even better.

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Re: pY Raw Ores Discussion

Post by factoriogame1121 »

I fully support the observation expressed in the previous message. In particular, this is why I asked in one of my messages to add the ability to disable the start zone with the whole bunch of resources.

I understand that for this stage of development (at least for this one), this is useful for an accelerated start and testing, but nevertheless, one of the exciting tasks in this game can be building a logistics network of various levels of complexity with a preliminary search for the necessary resources. And at the initial stage and in the future.

You know. It's fun. About 3 years ago. When I didn't know about your fashion, I played angel and bob. I launch the game once, without restarting, a random map - I play as lucky. And then I came across a map where there is no coal nearby. Only one tiny heap in 12 thousand. I ran around all the surroundings - any other coal is guarded by biters. This is the situation! And in the end I built a completely autonomous plant, producing (I don't remember exactly) about 60 megajoules from only wood briquettes. The coal from that heap did not run out to the end. It turned out an interesting task at the beginning of the game. Unique. So the random distribution of resources adds more fun to the game.

All this is written only to be meant. But, of course, dear authors, please do as you see fit. Thanks for your work.

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